Linux

[pup]

I have probably asked this before , but what version of Linux is recommended for a novice?

Also what is WINE and Virtual Box? (VM?),  whats the difference?

[Steve]

I started with Ubuntu(not progressed any further )WINE is a linux program that allows you to execute a windows program on a linux platform. Virtual box is Virtual Machine software which when installed allows you to run another OS on top of another one, useful as it avoids having dual boot, separate partitions etc but there is a delay as you have to start the primary OS before you can boot the second and the machine must have sufficient resources.

[JB]

As Steve has said, Ubuntu is widely regarded as being a good start. It is a fairly familiar environment if coming from Windows and manages to install on most recent machines without too many problems.

Another way to play with Linux is something like Puppy Linux, which was discussed in another thread on Idnetters. It is a small download and you can boot from CD and play with a live system without making any changes to your hard drive. In that way you can get a feel for it remembering that it is quite cut down and doesn't have all the programs that something like Ubuntu would have.

[Steve]

There is also wubi which runs Ubuntu from within windows,installs (and can be removed) like any other piece of windows software.Its only slightly slower than a separate install on my machine

[kinmel]

Start with a look at Ubuntu and if that works for you then try another version of Linux too.

New Ubuntu users should start with the official Beginners Guide

Good luck.

[Sebby]

Another vote for Ubuntu here.

[Simon]

I also started with Ubuntu, but went no further.  There's a very helpful Ubuntu forum, who, like us, don't treat newbies as numpties. 

[davej99]

I have no knowledge or experience of Linux whatever. Following Kinmel's link for Ubuntu beginners, I downloaded the LiveCD image, burnt it and booted to run from the CD as a trial. This boot apparently does not write to the hard drive at all. Even running from the CD, response seems crisp, though I do have 2G of memory. Amazingly, within a minute or so, here I am browsing IDNET in Firefox through my usual router without doing a thing, except zooming text size. Frankly that is impressive. So for fellow newbies, I would say it is well worth a try. 

[davej99]

Deleted - posted twice.

[Rik]

Though apparently it causes double posting.

[davej99]

I was dazzled by the speed!

[Rik]

 

[Sebby]

[Simon]

[kinmel]

Amazingly, within a minute or so, here I am browsing IDNET in Firefox through my usual router without doing a thing, except zooming text size. Frankly that is impressive. So for fellow newbies, I would say it is well worth a try. 

And there is no magic involved 

[pup]

Ubuntu it is then. Ive already got an install disk for that. its going on my laptop ill try it now....

[trophymick]

I tried Ubuntu for a short period and liked it a lot, it flies   Only problem was, I have Garmin Mapsource on my computer (for those that don't know, it's a GPS mapping/routing programme) and Linux doesn't support it. I'm not that concerned about most of the other Windows based stuff. I have heard that it will run in Wine (?) but I didn't have a clue how to do it I am building up the courage to try it again

[pup]

the only programs that i really want to use are firefox, thunderbird, and vagcom, which is dianostic software for my car.

might have to use kubuntu as im still waiting for gutsy to load.......

[pup]

gave up on ubuntu installing xubuntu 8.10 from text based installer....

[sebt]

It depends on a few things, but the *buntu distros are a pretty good start for newbies.

For most new converts the question isn't "which distro is easy" but "which distro picks up all my hardware". I say that because most general use distros - openSUSE, Fedora and *buntu - are all easy to install and, except for some differences in package management, easy to manage too. But it's not much fun for a newbie, for example, to get their networking going if the distro doesn't pick it up during install.

The "killer feature" of *buntu is probably wubi, which gives windows users the opportunity to get their feet wet without any reconfiguration of their hard drives / partitions. This installs Linux into a virtual filesystem that's stored as a big file inside your windows filesystem. Safe, easy and just a small performance hit.

The biggest differences between the "general user" distros are choices of modules and versions included and the software used for system and package management (package management being the "add/remove programs" system within a linux distro). Ubuntu uses .deb packages (since it is based on Debian) managed by the package manager "apt", where Suse uses .rpm packages, managed by YAST.

I find openSUSE the most complete and feature rich distro out there. The DVD comes with just about everything that any type of Linux user, from beginner to expert, could want. As a seasoned Linux user and programmer I also like their choices and configuration, appreciate the time-saver that is YAST, and like the nice touches they put into polishing the front end. The latest 11.1 release is close to the bleeding edge regarding included package versions, and generally Suse can be endlessly upgraded (I started with 9 which has been stepwise upgraded to 11.1).

Have fun with Linux!

Seb

[Sebby]

I'm still waiting for Wubi to support RAID 0 so I can give Ubuntu another try. It's too complicated for me to setup on RAID 0 myself (I've tried several times, unsuccessfully!).

[Rik]

RAID 0 is a bad idea in my book.

[pup]

well ive put xbunutu on the lappy, to be honest it struggles, i definelty need more memory (only 90meg at the moment) i was suprised how slow it is considering xp pro was on it before and that seemed to run okish.

[Sebby]

RAID 0 is a bad idea in my book.

I know it is, you told me that a year ago but I took no notice.

I'd rather RAID 0+1, but I don't want 4 disks. I'd got Memeo AutoBackup effectively mirroring my data in real-time onto a backup drive, so I'm fine (I hope!).

[davej99]

RAID 0 seems to come into its own on high performance systems.  There is a trend to dual RAID 0 drives to unlock the full potential of for example Core i7 and high end processors. The downside is reliability, but as working discs with higher level RAID NAS, RAID 0 has its place, for say HD video editing or serious gaming.

But I am just repeating press comments as I search for a decent laptop, where I can see no advantage in very large slow hard drives, which need copious and reliable backup. For this I am looking at a cheap pre-owned tower with several RAID drives running Linux server. That looks like less than £100. But would appreciate a critique of my less than informed ramblings. 

[Rik]

I don't knock the benefits of RAID 0, Dave, just the data security. I would go for 0+1 myself, especially with the price of drives these days.

[davej99]

0+1 ?

[Sebby]

It's a striped set (RAID 0) in a mirrored set set (RAID 1). So, you get the performance benefits of a striped set with the security of a mirrored set.

[Rik]

Or the best of all worlds.

[Sebby]

My case can't fit 4 HDs anyway, so I couldn't do it.

[Rik]

Time for a new case then, Seb.

[Sebby]

Time for a Mac.

[Rik]

Or that.

[davej99]

Thanks for the comments on RAID 0+1, which is new to me. You are right drives are cheap.

I wonder though if it is better to have RAID 0, on my laptop, and RAID 1 on my NAS, providing a high performance working drive and completely separate backup/storage/server hardware. The thing I like about RAID 1 is the ability to remove and secure a single drive for physical backup and slot in another. Also wonder if it is better to split four drives between two systems. The notion is that you need to lose two systems as opposes to one. Not sure how you recover using just the discs in RAID 0+1, as opposed to slotting a drive in a caddy.

[Rik]

There may be laptops using RAID, Dave, but I've not come across one. Most use just a single drive. In theory, with 0+1, if you get a failure, you replace the failed drive and the system rebuilds it. I've never had to put that to the test though.

[davej99]

Rik, the laptop I am looking at from D*** has a dual RAID 0 drive to match the T9500 processor and I think that will become more popular until solid state becomes affordable. Lets face it we are all still using glorified Winchesters.

As an off topic (do edit) - a Scots wag speaking about the house or Lords recently commented on "sic a parcel of robes in a Nation!"

[Rik]

As an off topic (do edit) - a Scots wag speaking about the house or Lords recently commented on "sic a parcel of robes in a Nation!"

Now that is real wit.

[Sebby]

Now you've got me thinking about RAID 0+1, Rik. I only have 2 x 250GB hard drives, and they must be cheap as chips now. It's a shame a physically can't fit them in my case...

[Rik]

Could you 'sling' them anywhere in the case?

[Sebby]

Nope, it's seriously tight...

[Rik]

Bigger case, then. You can always use it as a Linux server when you go Mac...

[Glenn]

Put them in an external case?

[Sebby]

Don't really want a bigger case - I built a SFF computer for that reason.

I could put them in an external enclosure, but it's a bit of a messy solution to me.

http://www.sebby.me.uk/pc/ultimatepc/

[Rik]

I do the exact opposite, go for a big box with plenty of room for expansion. I have four HDs fitted, but could add another couple if needed.

[Glenn]

This from Mashie (I used to work with him) would suit you http://www.mashie.org/casemods/udat1.html

[Rik]

Neat. 

[Sebby]

I do the exact opposite, go for a big box with plenty of room for expansion. I have four HDs fitted, but could add another couple if needed.

Space is a bit tight where the computer is sitting, which is why I wanted a SFF.

[Rik]

When we moved here, I just took over the second largest bedroom for the computers, then put a bench right down one side.

[Sebby]

That's the way to do it.

[Rik]

When we come to sell, people might find it a bit off putting.

[Sebby]

So don't sell.

[Rik]

No plans for the time being - until I can't manage the stairs, anyway.

[Sebby]

There's always stair lifts...

[Rik]

Our stairs dog-leg.

[Glenn]

they go around corners

[Rik]

I'll mention it to Sue.

[Glenn]

http://www.stannahstairlifts.co.uk/en/is-your-staircase-straight-or-curved.html

[Rik]

We'd be a 5, Glenn.

[Sebby]

That'll probably be the most expensive!

[Rik]

Bound to be, Seb.

[Steve]

I like the case Sebby, You could dump the internal CD\DVD that then looks like you may have enough room for 2 more drives. An external DVD can then be plugged in when you need it.

[esh]

I'm using software implemented RAID 5 using 3x500GB drives on this workstation. If anyone needs pointers, give a shout. It's pretty much the speed of RAID 0 reading at least, and I can pull out any one of the three drives and it'll still work.

Linux 2.6.27.4 here on a 8 processor box.

[Rik]

That's the other way to go, of course, and it's a pretty good route.

[esh]

RAID 0+1 arrays with Parallel ATA cables is a nightmare, hence RAID 5

[Rik]

I'd be inclined to go SCSI for a RAID.

[esh]

The serial attached kind I assume (SAS). Old SCSI is on the way out.

In this case I want the reliability and capacity -- hence SATA/PATA drives are just fine. I don't need the access times of the high ~15K RPM drives.

[Rik]

Very few people do, I suspect.

[esh]

I also save something like £500 

[Rik]

Not to be sneezed at.

[Sebby]

I like the case Sebby, You could dump the internal CD\DVD that then looks like you may have enough room for 2 more drives. An external DVD can then be plugged in when you need it.

That's an idea... I think I have one free HD bay and I could get an adaptor for the free 5.25" bay. I just wonder if it's worth it as I am planning on getting a Mac at some point.

[Rik]

Think of it as a challenge.

[Sebby]

A challenge to control myself from spending!

[Rik]

More of a challenge to spend. It's either that or the Donald Russell order.

[Sebby]

[Rik]

I could point you at an Eizo, if you really want me to. 

[Sebby]

[Rik]

I won't bite.

[davej99]

No plans for the time being - until I can't manage the stairs, anyway.

Beware chairlifts!

Click and view the gif.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Sebby]

It looks fun!

[Rik]

Beware chairlifts!

Click and view the gif.

Wonderful.

[Colin Burns]

Now you've got me thinking about RAID 0+1, Rik. I only have 2 x 250GB hard drives, and they must be cheap as chips now. It's a shame a physically can't fit them in my case...

use the empty bay for the dvd rom drive unless you've filled it

I do the exact opposite, go for a big box with plenty of room for expansion. I have four HDs fitted, but could add another couple if needed.

yea I'm with you on the big case my problem is getting a power supply to power everything as I'm running

4 hard drives with a 1TB on the way soon
2 DVD ROM drives
and geforce 8800 oc2 over clocked that wants to be plugged in aswell

during the winter i miss the P4 i had as it used to heat my bedroom literlay

[Rik]

I reckon the computer is worth 1.5C of added heat.

[Colin Burns]

lol my P4 processor used to run in the 80c range  but since the Core 2 duo its like a icy fridge dannis the witness

[Rik]

I shall check with her.

[Danni]

It is in comparison. His old machine was warmer than my radiators.

[Rik]

The wonderful smell of roasting processors.

[Glenn]

Then run on smoke you know, let it out and they don't work anymore

[Rik]

That's where I've been going wrong all these years.

[esh]

When I was working at CfA in Boston on an embedded electronics server, the project leader told me as I was sitting down in front of the board with serial number #1, "whatever you do, don't let the magic smoke out". It took me ages to figure out what he was on about.

[Rik]

 

I've been trying to get it in...

[Glenn]

You need to make it into a solid first

[Rik]

I have a mediocre second if that would do.