Problems with Be and a CCA

zappaDPJ · Feb 24, 2009, 19:04:22

I believe I did raise a complaint about Pipex through the ISPA although it appears they are no longer on the member's list. The result was a letter from Pipex support with a guarded apology and an invalid MAC. I did consider escalating the complaint but at the time I'd all but lost the will to live!

As if by coincidence and to prove that Be are also in fact nothing more than another bunch of thieving crooks I've just received my latest credit card statement on which there is an arbitrary debit of £100 in addition to the amount they are still taking as a monthly payment.

The ISP industry in this country is a total disgrace.

Rik · Feb 24, 2009, 19:05:40

It's not just ISPs, of course, Zappa. Contact your card company and jump up and down a bit.

zappaDPJ · Feb 24, 2009, 19:20:31

I certainly will Rik although recent experience has taught me that I might not get too far. I wasn't aware for instance that you can't actually stop a payment if someone who legitimately holds your credit card details applies for one regardless of whether that payment is genuinely owed. You can of course challenge it after the event but that may mean jumping through rather a large number of hoops. The only way of stopping someone taking a payment is if the credit card has expired. Even if you cancel the card, the card provider is still obliged to honour any debits and forward you the bill.

Sorry if I'm starting to sound bitter but I've reached a point where I just want scream out loud

Simon · Feb 24, 2009, 20:51:34

I'm pretty sure that if you cancel a card, the CCA would also cease, otherwise the card company would be responsible. I'd never use that payment method, even with a company I trusted, for the very reason that they are so hard to get out of.

davej99 · Feb 24, 2009, 21:05:45

What a raw deal you have been getting Zappa. You certainly do not want to block payment otherwise you will risk going into default and triggering debt recovery. It sound like Be have applied a termination charge and left the regular debit in place as well. I can't give you legal advice except perhaps to speak to your local CAB and look at some of the consumer sites. All I can tell you is that others have been successful working with the ISPA and the Small Claims Court, but it is hellish time consuming and not a little stressful. As a write I sense my blood pressure rising thinking about the treatment large companies dish out to consumers.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Colin Burns · Feb 25, 2009, 00:03:46

Quote from: Simon on Feb 24, 2009, 20:51:34
I'm pretty sure that if you cancel a card, the CCA would also cease, otherwise the card company would be responsible. I'd never use that payment method, even with a company I trusted, for the very reason that they are so hard to get out of.

thats what happens everytime ive lost a debit card as when you get a new one the number will have changed its caused me some billing issues with Idnet

zappaDPJ · Feb 25, 2009, 02:47:30

Quote from: Simon on Feb 24, 2009, 20:51:34
I'm pretty sure that if you cancel a card, the CCA would also cease, otherwise the card company would be responsible.

I can't say this with absolute certainty but I think the credit card company is responsible. I believe from a legal stand point credit cards along with cheques fall under the 1882 Bills of Exchange Act. Just as a bank note contains a signed promise to pay the bearer, a check or credit card also provides a similar guarantee. It is for all intents and purposes illegal to stop a cheque. If it happens you may apply for summary judgement in a court of law meaning the judge would not hear any arguments on behalf of the defendant because there are almost no grounds to defend that action baring theft.

I think, although I could be wrong, it has been known

that a credit card would provide the same guarantees as any other form of currency. I'd take a guess that if a customer cancels a credit card then any transaction made against that card would be fulfilled. If however the bank cancels a credit card because it has been reported lost or stolen, or if a credit card has naturally expired then all transactions would be rejected. I stand to be corrected though

zappaDPJ · Feb 25, 2009, 02:51:03

Quote from: davej99 on Feb 24, 2009, 21:05:45
What a raw deal you have been getting Zappa. You certainly do not want to block payment otherwise you will risk going into default and triggering debt recovery. It sound like Be have applied a termination charge and left the regular debit in place as well. I can't give you legal advice except perhaps to speak to your local CAB and look at some of the consumer sites. All I can tell you is that others have been successful working with the ISPA and the Small Claims Court, but it is hellish time consuming and not a little stressful. As a write I sense my blood pressure rising thinking about the treatment large companies dish out to consumers.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Thanks for your advice

Oh and apologies to the thread starter, I appear to have hijacked your thread

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 08:30:56

Quote from: Simon on Feb 24, 2009, 20:51:34
I'm pretty sure that if you cancel a card, the CCA would also cease, otherwise the card company would be responsible. I'd never use that payment method, even with a company I trusted, for the very reason that they are so hard to get out of.

Only if you close the account, Simon. If you simply get a replacement card, it will be linked to the old one.

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 08:35:21

Quote from: zappaDPJ on Feb 25, 2009, 02:51:03
Oh and apologies to the thread starter, I appear to have hijacked your thread

Not anymore.

I echo Simon's advice. If you can possibly avoid it, it's best not to use continuous charge authorities to pay regular bills, because you have no control of ceasing the CCA.

Simon · Feb 25, 2009, 10:17:53

So, how do you cancel these things? There must be a way, otherwise, you might as well give them keys to your house, and accept them just coming in and taking what they like.

davej99 · Feb 25, 2009, 10:27:20

I was trying to say earlier, if you stop a payment of any kind without the agreement of the payee, justified or not, you you risk being subject to debt recovery and your credit rating being compromised as a result. It isn't fair, but genuine bad debt is now such a problem, businesses seem to cut straight to the chase. In the present climate, a blemished credit record, however it may arise, genuine or not, can be disastrous. There are processes to deal with ISPs when problems arise using the ISPA, Ofcom and the courts. It will wear you down, but nowhere near as much as getting the debt recovery dogs called off, or fixing a damaged credit record.

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 12:33:18

Quote from: Simon on Feb 25, 2009, 10:17:53
So, how do you cancel these things? There must be a way, otherwise, you might as well give them keys to your house, and accept them just coming in and taking what they like.

As Dave says, Simon, with considerable perseverance. It's why I never give them in the first place.

quandam · Feb 25, 2009, 12:53:36

Quote from: Simon on Feb 25, 2009, 10:17:53
So, how do you cancel these things? There must be a way, otherwise, you might as well give them keys to your house, and accept them just coming in and taking what they like.

Many dissatisfied customers of Pipex had the same problem, spurious amounts of money being taken at will.

A lot of them 'lost' their card (cutting it up), reported the loss to CC company who, without fail, cancelled the card immediately. The next step was to contact the payee (in this case Pipex) and offer to pay any further genuine payments either by cheque or set up a Direct Debit which, as you know, can be cancelled at any time by the customer without involving the payee should further problems arise, thereby placing the financial reins back in the hands of the customer.

This method has been used successfully dozens of times by Pipex customers over the last 2 years plus.

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 12:59:21

A wise move, imo.

Sebby · Feb 25, 2009, 13:45:04

Indeed. My Pipex escape was fairly painless (I'm talking a couple of years ago now), but I know that most others weren't so lucky. What must their billing system be like to be so screwed up? It doesn't bear thinking about!

Simon · Feb 25, 2009, 13:57:47

I always paid Pipex by direct debit, and I did cancel it with my bank, and they did send me a snotty letter after trying to take a payment not due to them, and having it 'bounce'. I explained to them in no uncertain terms that they had had as much as they were going to get out of me, and in fact, a few weeks later, I received a cheque from them, for the amount of the failed debit, which they never had, and were never due in the first place!

Lance · Feb 25, 2009, 14:59:25

Sounds like a good resul then!

Ann · Feb 25, 2009, 15:01:05

After I left one of the big, silly ISPs they sent me a bill for 4 pounds something, and this was a year later. I answered by email, wasn't going to pay for a stamp to send a letter, and asked them for full details of what this sum was for. They replied saying that I could look it up in the 'my accounts' section. I couldn't of course as I was no longer a customer, which I told them and I heard no more about it. Useless!

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 15:04:21

I think some of these firms have no contact between departments, left and right hands everywhere.

zappaDPJ · Feb 25, 2009, 15:28:11

Quote from: Simon on Feb 25, 2009, 10:17:53
So, how do you cancel these things? There must be a way, otherwise, you might as well give them keys to your house, and accept them just coming in and taking what they like.

The correct procedure would be to put it in writing to whoever you have the agreement with and then raise a disputed transaction with the card provider if they continue to make debits. The card provider won't investigate unless you can first provide details that you have tried to settle any dispute yourself. After that many people use the Data Protection Act to have their details removed from the trader's database.

Quote from: Sebby on Feb 25, 2009, 13:45:04
Indeed. My Pipex escape was fairly painless (I'm talking a couple of years ago now), but I know that most others weren't so lucky. What must their billing system be like to be so screwed up? It doesn't bear thinking about!

It's been alleged that Pipex along with all the other companies taken over by Tiscali trawled their database of ex clients, reactivate old accounts and then handed non payers over to a debt collection agency. It happened to me and I personally know two other people in the same boat. In my case, I was on a one month contract. I tried to leave over a period of six months but was given a succession of invalid MACs. During this time they upgraded my service to a different (faster) service and put me on a year's contract although they did it without actually implementing the faster service. This was not something I requested and it put me on Tiscali's abysmal LLU network.

The service they were providing me with was down for extended periods and all but unusable when it was up. In desperation and at a lot of expence I had a second untagged phone line put in and eventually dropped the tagged line. Pipex attempted to reactive the service on the old line and initiated a new agreement using the details on file thus locking me into a new one year contract. A few months ago my credit card naturally expired which stopped them taking money but triggered debt recovery. I am now in litigation with them.

As for why Be has suddenly taken an arbitrary £100, they claim they never received their modem back even though I have proof of posting and confirmation by phone that it was received by them three months ago. Furthermore I've just been informed that they are still taking debits even though the contract expired last month.

I've given the matter some thought and while doing so it appears that I've lost my credit card, damn!

PS: Thanks for the admin intervention Rik

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 15:35:52

NP.

You do seem to have had some bad troubles with ISPs, my sympathies. While I never give CCAs for that reason, if I were to break that rule ever, it would probably be with IDNet, because I do trust them.

davej99 · Feb 25, 2009, 18:01:33

Recently moved IDNET from CCA to DD. I figured they are nice guys and should not have to pay transaction charges.

Rik · Feb 25, 2009, 18:04:12

I started with a standing order, Dave, then moved to DD when IDNet introduced it. Only ever had one problem, when the software decided to start moving the payment date forward by a day each month, but a quick call to Simon had the bug in the software fixed in no time.

quandam · Feb 25, 2009, 18:16:12

"'Ive given the matter some thought and while doing so it appears that I've lost my credit card, damn!"

Well done! This is the way to go when dealing with these 'iffy' companies. Don't forget to cut it up straight away and contact your payee asap offering your (repeat, 'YOUR') conditions of further payments.