Go easy on me I'm a muppet.

[neocr0n]

Ok so I have been having latency problems for pretty much as long as I've been on IDnet (Nov).

I know everyone on IDnet is having the odd latency problem of late but I don't think my problems can be put entirely at IDnet's door so here goes.

Currently I run a Netgear DG834G v2 router with the latest firmware V3.01.31.

I used to have Sync problems on the firmware before this one and so for the past 2 months I would say I've been using the oldest firmware.  The past two months is when I have had the worst of my latency problems and packet loss.  After upgrading to the newest firmware a few days ago (V3.01.31) my problems are less but not resolved.  I only occasionaly have bad latency these days and its not as high and doesn't last as long as it used to on the older firmware.

I noticed my MTU changed from 1492 to 1458 in my firmware (automatically I presume) so I decided to look into MTU and optimise it.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/MTU2.htm
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm

These two guides contradict themselfs at least they do to the untrained eye.

The first says for MTU 1430 RWIN should be 27800.

The second suggests anywhere from 65535 to 111200 for the RWIN settings.

I downloaded Dr TCP my only options for adapter settings are NVIDIA nforce Networking Controller and 1394 Net adapter.  Then it dawned on my I don't have a proper network card its just my router plugged into an ethernet port, would this matter and would anyone recommend me buying a propper network card?  I have suspected my router is the cause of my problems, had it a while now and was considering getting a new one.  Still I want to try a few things before splashing out £50+

Can anyone on a DG834G v2 recommend firmware and settings for a ADSLMAX customer connecting at anywhere from 3.7 to 4.5?  Incudling MTU RWIN setc?

Should I get a network card?

And if all else fails can someone recommend a good ADSL Modem/Wireless Router particularly for a gamer if such a thing exhists

Thanks for reading and of course for any help offered.

[Rik]

High latency is a function of having interleaving turned on, so the first thing to do is check with CS whether or not your line is interleaved. If it is, it may have been done to achieve stability, or it may be on by default. CS will be able to tell you which, and whether it's worth turning it off (there may be a fee to do so).

I've used a Netgear DG834 v2 and a Netgear DG834G v3 successfully on my line, but with Max, there is no longer a 'best' router. The Draytek 2600+ I used at fixed-rate did not work as well for me as the Netgears have. Some say if you can match the chipset on the DSLAM you're connected to it helps. However, the v2 Netgear uses the TI7 chipset whereas I believe the v3 uses the Broadcom. If you have friends who can bring their routers round, I'd suggest you try as many makes/models as you can and see what works best for you. Speedtouch generally come well recommended, but avoid Belkin if you are thinking of wireless. I would also advise you to avoid Pre-N routers, as there are often compatibility issues between brands.

Miriam recommends 1458 as the MTU, Simon says you can use 1500. I've found 1458 works better on my line, with Nildram, 1500 worked best, with Wanadoo it was 1430. RWIN is always slightly more difficult, but DSL Reports tends to be conservative, and I'd suggest something in the 64k region. Try using 1458/65228.

You do have a proper network interface, only it's onboard, not a separate physical card. All my machines are networked in this way and I've never had a problem. That said, I have heard of issues with Nvidia chipsets, so it might be worth picking up a NIC, you should be able to find one for £5-10. Remember to disable the onboard LAN in the BIOS if you decide to do this.

Above all, no one router is likely to be better or worse than another when it comes to pings. They will differ in the speed at which they sync and how well they hold the line, but the difference should not be that great.

If you post your line stats, there may be clues as to other things you could try, eg modifying your internal phone wiring. Where does the router connect, if an extension is it a hard-wired one or a loose cable? Do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type where the bottom 2/3rds can be removed?

You may also wish to look at the other threads on ping times on the board.

[Lance]

High latency is a function of having interleaving turned on, so the first thing to do is check with CS whether or not your line is interleaved. If it is, it may have been done to achieve stability, or it may be on by default. CS will be able to tell you which, and whether it's worth turning it off (there may be a fee to do so).

I don't believe there is a charge for getting it turned off, I certainly wasn't charged last November.

[Rik]

Thanks, Lance. Some ISPs do charge, others don't (though they are all charged by BT afaik). As I've never changed my setting with IDNet, I didn't know if they charged.

[neocr0n]

ADSL Link               Downstream        Upstream
Connection Speed    3776 kbps    448 kbps
Line Attenuation              42 db    15.5 db
Noise Margin                          1 db         17 db

Current line stats.  Experiencing some minor latency spiking at the moment nothing hugely significant.

There is a phone socket literaly behind my computer desk.  Its a case of one small wire no more than a meter from my router to my phone socket and one small ethernet cable again about a meter to my computer.

The reason I figured the router might be cause of my problems is simply because on old firmware my latency was completely out of control for the majority of the time.  When I updated the firmware it has really "fixed" the problem but of course not quite as its still unacceptable just a lot better than it was.

[Rik]

First thing to be aware of is that all Netgear 834s report the u/s attenuation incorrectly, it's twice what the router says it is, in your case 31db (if you telnet into the router, you'll find the figure reported correctly).

I am concerned by your d/s noise margin. 1db means you are working 'on the edge'. For my line, I can go to -2db before the line will re-sync, but the less margin you have, the more the noise affects the signal, the greater the error count. I suspect this is at the heart of your problem.

I take it the phone socket you are using is not the master socket but an extension? Do you have an NTE5? If so, can you move the computer and router to there, and use the test socket behind the faceplate to eliminate your extension wiring. I have a feeling the latter may be part of your problem. (An alternative to moving the computer is to pick up a long ethernet patch cable. The ethernet spec allows for this to be up to 100m in length.)

[neocr0n]

Hopefully the following will look familiar to you.

AR7 DSL Modem Statistics:
--------------------------------
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     448     DS Connection Rate:     3776
        DS Line Attenuation:    42      DS Margin:              0
        US Line Attenuation:    31      US Margin:              17
        US Payload :            46629888        DS Payload:             23060155

The phone socket I am using is not the master socket no but I do have a NTE5 in my room.  I suspect its linked to the one downstairs in someway althought this was all properly installed by a techy.

[Rik]

Your d/s margin has dropped further, to 0.

You need to test at the master socket, using the test socket behind the faceplate. This will disconnect all your extension wiring. If the figures improve dramatically, then you have a problem with your wiring which needs to be sorted. I suspect this is the case given the rest of your figures.

It may be as simple as disconnecting the 'bell' wire from all extensions, it may require some re-wiring, but until you've done the test, I'm just guessing.

[MoHux]

........ These two guides contradict themselfs at least they do to the untrained eye.

The first says for MTU 1430 RWIN should be 27800.

The second suggests anywhere from 65535 to 111200 for the RWIN settings.

They are related.  111200 is 13900 (a good old dial-up number) scaled up.

i.e.  13900 x 2 = 27800
                                     x 2 = 55600
                                                        x 2 = 111200

You will sometimes find that an RWin number that worked reasonably well for you at some time, will work still on Max if scaled up.

[neocr0n]

Well thank you all for your help particularly rikbean.  At the very least I feel like I've made some real progress here and at least I know where to start now.  I guess I'll test my net from the master socket.  In the mean time thanks very much all and hopefully I won't have to revive this thread in a few days time

[Rik]

Remember it's the test socket behind the master that's the critical one. Using that connects your router directly to the exchange pair, with none of your house wiring involved. What you're looking for at that point is a d/s margin of 6db and a sync speed higher than you have now. If that happens, then your internal wiring is adding noise to the circuit, and degrading your ADSL signal.

The bell/ring wire would be the first thing to look at in that situation, it's on terminal three. Disconnect it on all sockets. Check that everything connected to the line, other than the router, is going through a filter (it's easy to miss a Sky box, for example). If the figures are still worse than in the test socket, you will need to take a serious look at the extension wiring.

Of course, if the test socket doesn't show any improvement, it may be a BT fault, so phone CS with the results of your tests. They'll probably ask you to do a BT speed test - so do one in the test socket and one in your normal socket before you contact them, noting the time & date of each test.

[neocr0n]

I've removed the face plate on the NTE5 and there was another connector behind the face plate.  Do I go one further and remove the entire socket from the wall assuming there is a connector behind there?

[Rik]

What you should see is a BT socket built into the back of the NTE5 'body', this is the test socket. When you put the faceplate back on, it plugs into this socket, so if you look at the rear of the faceplate, it should help you find the socket I'm talking about. The only connectors on the body of the NTE5 should be the exchange pair, terminating on screw connectors. The rest of your wiring should be connected to the faceplate, via IDC (push-in) connectors.

[neocr0n]

Hmm, current linestats.

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    4224 kbps    448 kbps
Line Attenuation    42 db    15.5 db
Noise Margin    5 db    18 db

Surely if it was wiring would the problem not be permanent rather than a bit tempramental?

Is a Noise Margin of 5db only just acceptable or is it actually good?  And in your experience could the router cause these problems or is it still more likely to be a wiring problem?

[Rik]

Noise margin varies throughout the day, generally it will be at its worst during the hours of darkness, due to the propagation of radio waves, and increased cross-talk on the cables between you and the exchange. This is not an infallible rule, however, if you live near a railway, say, the noise generated by a sparking pantograph can affect your signal.

I have a target margin set at 9db, to improve stability on my line. On an average day, I will see occasional spikes to as low as 4db. It's worth noting that Netgears seem to have a tendency to gradually reduce the reported noise margin over time, that said I haven't really seen more than 1db due to the effect.

Your extension wiring acts as an antenna, and will introduce noise into your line. This is particularly true where the bell wire is connected, as this is unbalanced. The actual exchange connections should always be balanced, eg blue/white and white/blue at each socket. If, otoh, you had a blue/white and green/white on one or more sockets, then your entire wiring would be unbalanced and introducing noise.

If you carry out the test I have suggested, you will know with certainty if your wiring is an issue, and if it isn't, we can look at what else could be done to improve matters.

[Thar]

I know you think the Netgear's OK for you rikbean but I had similar problems to neocr0n and would have to describe the noise margin as fluctuating rather than a gradual reduction, i.e jumping erratically from 2 to 8 back to 3 then 9. after some research I didn't seem to be on my own with this problem.

In the end I replaced the Netgear with a Speedtouch 585 and now have a stable noise margin of around 8. The only good thing was that the Netgear only lost sync once for me despite the noise margin being so low.

As has been said, you need to find which router best suits your line.

[Rik]

You're right, Thar. Pre-Max, I could have given anyone a list of recommended routers with some certainty, since Max, it's really a case of what works best in a given environment. It's a great shame that we can't buy a selection of routers, test them and send back the ones we don't want.

Certainly, the Speedtouch range has a generally high reputation, and is always worth a look.

Opinion generally seems to be that the Netgears don't report noise margin as accurately as most, and that often the true figure is higher than indicated, possibly why I don't lose sync unless I reach -2db.

I think the key issues for neocr0n is to eliminate his wiring from the equation. Once we know whether that's a part of the problem, or not, we can give him better and more specific advice.