Line Degrades Over Time - Noise Issue?

emzino · Apr 11, 2009, 01:01:18

Hi all.

After a few days (3-5), my line seems to degrade quite badly. I believe it's a noise issue.

Now I just want to know what I can possibly do to help improve my position.

Here's a couple of my ideas:

1) Some kind of special filter
2) 2-Wire 2700HGV Router

Now would the Router actually help? I'm contemplating whether to buy one or not. I've seen one that says "BT Business Hub 2700HGV Wireless Router 2 Wire". That ok?

Glenn · Apr 11, 2009, 08:06:52

Have you tried connecting your router direct to your test socket behind the master socket face plate, it would discount any noise generated from your internal wiring. Several people on the forum use the 2700HGV to good effect on long lines, they can be had for less than £20 delivered from eBay.

Rik · Apr 11, 2009, 10:28:09

What are your line stats, immediately after a router re-boot and again after the 3-5 days?

Sebby · Apr 11, 2009, 12:24:12

As the others mention, we need to know a bit about your current setup, and your current stats would be handy. It could be an internal noise issue, which is often sorted by fitting a filtered faceplate or removing the ring wire from all sockets.

emzino · Apr 11, 2009, 14:02:48

Unfortunately I seem to have an old socket. Well, I have 2 and both of them do not have a test socket behind the plate for some strange reason. Old house maybe?

Here are the nodes connected to the Router:

- My PC
- Sisters Laptop
- Xbox 360
- iPod Touch

Here are the stats right now but it's only been live for 14hours because I had to restart my connection last night. Was unbareable...

Uptime: 0 days, 14:50:37

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4,992

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 35.30 / 70.33

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 19.5

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 24.0 / 42.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 6.5

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 14 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 22 / 754,903

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 15

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 14

What I noticed before the restart was that the FEC errors down was at something like 15million. Anyway after a couple of days i'll post more results.

Rik · Apr 11, 2009, 15:22:24

The errors may be the clue. Have you checked for a ringwire connection on terminal 3 at each socket?

Sebby · Apr 11, 2009, 17:48:43

The thing is, they are corrected errors and thus no cause for concern. Uncorrected errors are very low given the 14 hours up time. The SNRM is fine and doesn't suggest instability on the face of it. Sync is low for the attenuation. I think the ring wires are picking up noise, and there are also probably bursts of noise causing trouble. As Rik suggests, removing the ring wire is a good start.

emzino · Apr 12, 2009, 00:54:08

Removed the ring wire (orange wire I believe) from the 3rd socket in both telephone sockets. Just don't wanna dish out the cash to get a BT Engineer around to maybe replace the old sockets or something

Lance · Apr 12, 2009, 09:50:02

What are your line stats looking like now?

Sebby · Apr 12, 2009, 13:54:07

I'd be interested to see those too.

emzino · Apr 12, 2009, 22:48:52

Uptime: 1 day, 23:37:27

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4,992

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 230.26 / 2.55

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 19.5

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 24.0 / 42.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 6.0

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 54 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 110 / 11,219,653

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 12 / 159

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 6 / 138

Rik · Apr 13, 2009, 10:07:13

The ring wire doesn't seem to have made much difference, but your corrected error rate is almost 4,000 per minute, which will be slowing things down a bit (previously, the rate was nearer 800/minute). I think it would pay you to check for any internal sources of noise, eg central heating, freezers, Sky boxes etc. If you have a battery powered AM receiver, tune it away from a station until you just have white noise, then follow the phone line from where it enters the house, and listen for that noise level to rise. Try the same around appliances. If you get an increase, the chances are that's the source of the noise, and you need to eliminate it before going further.

If not, then talk to support and get the line tested, but if it's a case of your line passes a source of interference, eg an industrial unit, the chances are BT won't do anything about it.

Sebby · Apr 13, 2009, 11:15:38

Corrected errors don't slow things down, only uncorrected errors as this is when packets have to be re-sent.

D-Dan · Apr 13, 2009, 19:10:33

It sounds similar to the problem I was having recently. I:

Installed and ADSL faceplate
Bought a fully shielded cabled (5M) to get me from faceplate to router

And the problem has gone away. Having said that, I'm not convinced my actions cured it. I have a stirring suspicion that it was a transitory problem that has cured itself. However, I do have a more stable sync at a higher rate now.

Steve

emzino · Apr 14, 2009, 23:23:33

I've tried the radio route and it hasn't picked up anything suspicious. Don't really have a stereo system. Just a DAB radio given as a gift from work.
Just as a note, I used a mates normal radio to check for noise.

I'm using CAT6 cable already because I know my line is basically cr*p. Might try the ADSL faceplate. Think i'll call IDNet first tomorrow because it's just annoying.

Edit: Here's my stats now:

Link Information

Uptime: 0 days, 10:56:40

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 5,536

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 31.15 / 135.17

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 19.5

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 24.0 / 42.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 3.5

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 6,570 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 34 / 47,971,876

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 6 / 226,981

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 8 / 216,115

Websites won't load up anymore. Having to restart net

Rik · Apr 14, 2009, 23:49:50

Your basic stats are way better than mine, something else has to be going on. What AV/firewall are you running?

Sebby · Apr 15, 2009, 13:02:27

Yeah, things look pretty good. A filtered faceplate is a good bet.

Glenn · Apr 15, 2009, 13:16:26

My line attenuation is creeping up, from 59.3 last month, it now sits at 60.1

Steve · Apr 15, 2009, 14:17:48

I wonder whether thats due to the warmer weather as the resistance increases with ambient temparature.If that theory's true you will have no connection at all come summer.

emzino · Apr 15, 2009, 14:19:16

Anti-Virus: Eset NOD32
Firewall: Hardwall Firewall (Speedtouch 585 v6 with Firewall settings at Standard - Use this Security Level to allow all outgoing connections and block all incoming traffic. Game & Application sharing is allowed by the firewall).

No software although I do have Windows Firewall Enabled via Control Panel.

Where would I purchase an ADSL faceplate?

Rik · Apr 15, 2009, 14:21:46

ADSL Nation would be my recommendation, but you need an NTE5 to use one.

emzino · Apr 15, 2009, 17:23:36

Damn. I wonder how much BT will charge to get the sockets changed.

Well I think there's my answer I just missed a 2Wire Router brand new in the box by 4p all because I forgot to put a maximum bid

Well I think I should call IDNet first for a line check and then BT for a quote.

Many thanks everyone for your help. Much appreciated

Rik · Apr 15, 2009, 17:32:53

Keep us posted.

Sebby · Apr 16, 2009, 00:05:59

When you say you removed the ring wire from both sockets, is that all the sockets in the house? If so, would it be possible to re-wire the extensions using twisted pair cat5? As you can't fit a filtered faceplate, it might be worth getting the internal wiring as good as possible.

Some people have had success, though, at getting BT to fit an NTE5 for free by telling them they want to fit extensions (because if you don't have an NTE5, it's illegal for you to do it, theoretically). Might be worth a go...

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 14:44:26

One last paste of the line stats:

Link Information

Uptime: 1 day, 15:24:21

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 4,960

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/GB]: 126.48 / 1.14

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 19.5

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 24.0 / 43.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.0 / 7.0

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 345 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 122 / 201,648,629

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 24 / 642

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 10 / 575

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 14:48:49

Sync speed has dropped, probably because the noise margin triggered a re-sync during the evening night (it was a 3.5db last time, so was getting vulnerable to a re-sync).

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 14:56:09

Quote from: Sebby on Apr 16, 2009, 00:05:59
Some people have had success, though, at getting BT to fit an NTE5 for free by telling them they want to fit extensions (because if you don't have an NTE5, it's illegal for you to do it, theoretically). Might be worth a go...

Rik, Sebby, you think that'll work? If I say I want to fit an extension but legally I can't because I don't have an NTE5..

Also, if they say what do I mean by extension, what should I say? Because i'm not quite clear on what's meant when saying extension

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 14:59:41

An extension is hard-wired into the master socket, ie not one that plugs into it - often with a socket doubler. On the reverse of the detachable faceplate are terminals to allow this, the faceplate then plugs into the test socket and makes the connection with the line when it's reattached.

Some people get this done for a nominal sum of about £25, it seems to depend on who you talk to at BT.

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 15:00:38

Gotcha! Going to call 150 now to see if they can get it sorted for me. Brb =D

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 15:01:27

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 15:22:17

£50 to change + call out fee... Waiting to speak to supervisor now. That's crazy!

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 15:24:55

TBH, I'm not surprised - you seem to have to be very lucky to find someone who know about the £25 deal, and if they can't see it on their price sheet, they won't offer it.

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 15:26:14

£51.26pm for each socket plus a call out fee as well.

So that's about £102.52p + whatever call out fee is.

Anyone up for doing it? lol

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 15:27:52

You don't have to have them re-wire the other sockets, just provide the new master which will allow you to do it. I'm sure the offer of a bacon sandwich and plenty of tea would see the engineer poke in the wires for the existing extension.

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 15:28:57

Funnily enough, right next door to me we got a huge BT van. Think the guys an engineer. Might have give them a knock and ask whether he can do it or not

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 15:39:54

You've got nothing to lose, it's a 10 minute job for him.

emzino · Apr 16, 2009, 15:46:11

Would he be changing any internal wiring?

Rik · Apr 16, 2009, 15:49:03

Only the master socket, he just needs to disconnect the existing one, connect the incoming exchange pair to the backplate of the NTE5, screw that to the wall, then fit the face plate. If he's feeling kind, attaching your existing extension to that would take him about a minute.

Sebby · Apr 16, 2009, 17:20:21

Quote from: emzino on Apr 16, 2009, 15:28:57
Funnily enough, right next door to me we got a huge BT van. Think the guys an engineer. Might have give them a knock and ask whether he can do it or not

Definitely ask, I can't imagine they'd say no. It really is a very quick job.