I should be an IDNetter later today

[Dan]

Hi there,

I move to IDNet today - I got my mac code from Nildram the day before Tiscali's sale to Carphone Warehouse was announced.

This is the first time I've ever migrated (I was with Nildram for 7 years). IDNet's email says my new connectionshould be successfully activated by 6pm today. I'm still logged into Nildram as I type so should I expect to suddenly lose my connection or will it only take effect when I turn off my router (and then find I can't get on again via Nildram?)

Thanks.
Dan

[Rik]

Hi and welcome to the forum, Dan. I also migrated from Nildram and have never regretted it.

You may have already migrated, it's often done in the small hours, so if you try your IDNet login and it works, you're with us. There's often a short period where both services are available on the line.

[Lance]

Welcome to the forum, Dan!

[Dan]

Thanks. I tried just now and no luck... Guess I might be logging onto my router a few times today.

[Rik]

IDNet will send you an email when BT confirms the migration to them.

[Steve]

If its LLU to ipstream do you not loose connection for a short while?

[Rik]

You do, I hadn't thought of that, Steve.

[Dan]

Still on Nildram...

Just remembered to do a last test


At one stage I did get 6MB towards the end of last year. I'm putting off doing any work waiting to be disconnected (slightly worried too because IDNet telephone support closes at 6).

[Lance]

Were you on a LLU connection?

[Rik]

There's an out of hours emergency number if you need it, Dan. Personally, I'd phone between 4 & 5 if nothing has happened, it will give them a chance to get hold of someone at BT.

[Sebby]

[zappaDPJ]

Welcome, I hope it goes smoothly for you 

[Simon]

I'm sure it will all be OK.

[Dan]

I'm pretty sure I'm on an LLU (my exchange has Tiscali installed).

I'm even turning my router off for 30 minutes at a time thinking the engineer might look at the rack and see a flashing light and think "oh I'll wait until he's disconnected. It might be important" 

[Sebby]

The line will require a physical move in that case, so it just depends when the engineer gets down to the exchange!

[Lance]

LLU requires, as you seem already aware, an actual engineer to migrate you. This is likely to be why it didn't happen in the small hours as a non-llu migration would. Hopefully BT will be on the case shortly!

Or what Seb said!

[Dan]

My connection went down (and so did my phone) for a couple of minutes. Line's back up and I'm now an IDnetter. Yay.


Not so yay.

It'll get better though won't it?

[Lance]

Now we can give you a proper welcome!

It will get better. You'll now be in the 10 day training period and your inital profile will be set at 2000. You'll see this increase over the next few days

[Rik]

We hope. 

If you post your downstream attenuation, noise margin and sync speed, Dan, we'll be able to give you an idea what to expect.

[Lance]

And then we'll look to improve your wiring

[Rik]

And spend your money.

[Lance]

I was saving that one, Rik! 

[Rik]

 

I thought he might as well get used to use right away.

[Dan]

If you post your downstream attenuation, noise margin and sync speed, Dan, we'll be able to give you an idea what to expect.

How do I do that?

[Rik]

What router are you using? The most common brands and instructions are listed at Kitz:

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.htm

[vitriol]

I migrated to IDNet from Nildram when I heard that Tiscali were buying them out and I've not regretted it a bit.  My friend who is still on Nildram always complains of slow speeds and bad latency.

You've made the right choice

[Dan]

Thanks - I have a WAG54G2 but following instructions for the Linksys WRT 160N produced this. I think I have some reading up to do.

--- System Information ---
Vendor: Linksys
ModelName: WAG54G2
Firmware Version: 1.00.10 , 2008-08-01T20:20:49
Boot Version: 1.03
Hardware Version: 0.01

--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  E.25.41.39
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          Showtime
DSL Mode:            G.Dmt
DSL Channel:         64
DSL Upstream Rate:   448000
DSL Downstream Rate: 5088000

                      Down         up   
DSL Noise Margin:    31.5 dB      27.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:       13 dB       6.0 dB
DSL Transmit Power:  19.3 dBm     11.7 dBm

--- Wireless Information ---
Wireless Driver Version: 2.1.34
Wireless Status: Enabled
Wireless Standard Channel: 1- 2.412GHZ
Wireless SSID: Biscuits

[Rik]

I think the router is mis-labelling the NM and attenuation, that looks more likely to be a 31.5db d/s attenuation with a 13db NM. That latter figure suggests there has been some instability on the line and that the dynamic line management software has increase the target NM from 6 to 12 or 15db. That would cost you 1-1.5Mb in sync speed, which looks about right to me for a 31.5 attenuation, iow, with a 6db target margin I would expect you to sync at or near 8128.

Are you using multiple extensions, what other devices are connected to the line, eg phone, Sky box etc?

[Dan]

This level of information is amazing!

The main line from the telegraph pole actually runs into a junction box, and then a metre or so of (ordinary) cable runs from that junction box to the master socket. A phone is plugged into that. There is one extension line (wired into the master socket box rather than on a plug) which runs for about 5 metres to another socket where the router is plugged in.

Are you able to tell me how far I am sitting from the router?

But I've got to go and do tea now. Thanks for everyone's help and karma.

Dan

[Rik]

How comfortable are you about playing with phone wiring, Dan. It may help to remove the ring wire, if connected. (Oh, 1.65m )

[Lance]

I would also plug the router into the master socket rather than the extension, and then run a longer network cable is possible

[Rik]

A phone is plugged into that.

Hang on, that phone is filtered, right?

[Dan]

Last post for now.

yes the phone is filtered (and so's socket plugged into the router). I'm happy to play with wiring as long as I won't lose my internet connection.

[Rik]

Remove the faceplate of each socket, Dan, and see if you have any wires connected to terminal 3, usually Orange/white, but go by the number. The only wires you need are on terminals 2 & 5, and these are usually blue/white and white/blue. Terminal 3 is the ring wire, not needed by modern phones or phones plugged into a filter. If it's connected, remove it at each socket by grasping it with a small pair of pliers and gently pulling it out of the IDC connection. While you're there, check that you do indeed have a 'pair' on terminals 2/5, ie the wires should be colour/white, white colour.

[Sebby]

I agree with Rik, a 13dB attenuation seems unlikely. I can't see why you shouldn't actually be able to get full sync. Follow Rik's notes and hopefully it'll improve things as it's likely your extensions are picking up noise at the moment.

[Dan]

Terminals 3 and 4 were connected (orange/white pair) - for the moment we just disconnected them rather than pulling the cable out.



So it's getting better...

                      Down         up   
DSL Noise Margin:    14.0 dB      24.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:       18 dB       8.0 dB
DSL Transmit Power:  19.6 dBm     11.5 dBm

I haven't actually removed the bell wire (just disconnected - I'll try removing the wire completely over the weekend). Terminals 2 and 5 are a pair, although when we took the faceplate off terminal 2 wasn't actually connected (maybe it was terminal 5 - the bottom most one) so we put that one back in. Maybe it was loose. I'll see what can be done with extensions at the weekend too. Going to be difficult for moving the router closer to the master socket though because I work in an office in my garden with a network cable running under underground outside (I'm usually about 14m from the router, Rik)

[Den]

As long as you disconnect the ringer cable at each telephone point that will be fine you don't have to do anything else as the wire will only pick up noise if it is connected but it must not be connected anyware. I am going to disconnect for my neighbour in the next week (jaybee) as his NM is about 15dB and has much lower speeds than me even though we most likely have the same cable up to the edge of the drives.

[Sebby]

Terminals 3 and 4 were connected (orange/white pair) - for the moment we just disconnected them rather than pulling the cable out.



So it's getting better...

                      Down         up   
DSL Noise Margin:    14.0 dB      24.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:       18 dB       8.0 dB
DSL Transmit Power:  19.6 dBm     11.5 dBm

I haven't actually removed the bell wire (just disconnected - I'll try removing the wire completely over the weekend). Terminals 2 and 5 are a pair, although when we took the faceplate off terminal 2 wasn't actually connected (maybe it was terminal 5 - the bottom most one) so we put that one back in. Maybe it was loose. I'll see what can be done with extensions at the weekend too. Going to be difficult for moving the router closer to the master socket though because I work in an office in my garden with a network cable running under underground outside (I'm usually about 14m from the router, Rik)

What's the downstream rate like now?

When you say you disconnected instead of pulling the wire out, what do you mean?

[Rik]

I work in an office in my garden with a network cable running under underground outside (I'm usually about 14m from the router, Rik)

That's cheating. Like Sebby, I'm curious as to what you mean about disconnecting. It does sound like the wiring is worth a little exploration though. You can pick up disposable IDC tools for about £1 at places like B&Q or Maplin, it would probably be worthwhile to remake all the joints.

[uxbod]

because I work in an office in my garden with a network cable running under underground outside

Hmmm, how well is the cable protected ? Is it fed through some tubing under the ground or just laid straight into the ground ? Is it shielded at all ? Perhaps a little bit of moisture has creeped in ?

[Dan]

Disconnecting... Rik, when you said "remove it at each socket by grasping it with a small pair of pliers and gently pulling it out of the IDC connection" - I had visions of carefully pulling the wire from out of the entire length of cable...

After I saw Sebby's post you don't mean pull the wire out, just make sure it's disconnected. I only disconnected it at one end though so I'm going to look again at the wiring today now I'm confident what I'm doing.

The underground network cable should be ok, Uxbod. The cable itself is inside cable tubing (not sure if it's shielded), but I also use a laptop in the house (wireless) or sometimes cable it and the speed tests are the same (plus any file transfers between my computers on this line are fine), so I think it's the telephone wiring/connections that have the biggest impact on speed. Hope so. I don't want to dig that cable up!

[Lance]

Hi Dan,

You just need to make sure the wire is diconnected at every socket. Rik meant pull out of the IDC (the terminal).

HTH

[Rik]

Ah, right. The IDC connector is the push-in terminal block on the socket.

[Dan]

Thanks.

Just thought I'd try a speedtest... Download is superb   (haven't disconnected the bellwire at the other end yet either)

[Rik]

Upload is a tad slow. Can you try a BT test, Dan?

[Lance]

Link for BT test.   

[Sebby]

Thanks.

Just thought I'd try a speedtest... Download is superb   (haven't disconnected the bellwire at the other end yet either)

That's more like it, although upload looks strange.

[zappaDPJ]

I've found that the 'London' server used by Speedtest.net consistently produces strange results for me and other connections I've tested on it (as below). Low bandwidth on either stream and high pings are often reported by that server. The 'Maidenhead' server seems to give much more consistent results so you might want to try that.

[Maverich]

  Dan!!

I'm confident you'll enjoy your time here! 

[Dan]

I've tried a BT test twice and just left it to run but think it's failing at some point.

It does say "Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 6500 k". Early in the test it displays a Java access denied error on a particular port (not my IP address) but still shows a steadily increasing progress bar up to 100% but the next message just eventually sits on "No of threads are 4!" and never gets past 96%

I disconnected both ends of the bell wire last night

                      Down         up   
DSL Noise Margin:    14.0 dB      24.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:       17 dB       8.5 dB
DSL Transmit Power:  19.6 dBm     11.5 dBm

and a speed test this morning was 6.35MB down and 0.22 up (London server) but last night connecting to the Maidenhead server showed 0.38MB upload - so I think zappaDPJ is onto something.  (download was only 4.94 but maybe that's because it's Sunday)

I'm very pleased so far. Thanks for all your help.

[Lance]

If you're not already, you may get more luck from the BT speedtest running it in Internet Explorer as opposed to Firefox oor any other brower - that is quite a common error message though. Importantly, we now know what your profile is, but what would be good is knowing your connection rate / sync speed - you should be able to see this in the router stats. I'm guessing that the downstream will be 8128kbps

[Rik]

The BT test is notoriously fickle. I managed to run one before lunch, from Firefox, but it used to be impossible using anything other than IE, whatever the website may say, and at some times of day and some days of the week. Persistence is all we can advise with it, sadly.

Try http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/, I find it a reasonably accurate test.

[BrianM]

  Dan  A wise move, i've no regrets moving here.   

[Dan]

I'm back... At the start of the week I was getting 6MB downloads but the last couple of days I've not been able to get above 3.5MB. That said we just had our hall and stairs plastered so we had to take the BT box off the wall (and while we were there I took the opporunity to sink in a box and transfer the contents of the old socket box into this sunken box).

While the plasterer was here he likes the electrics to be off (unlike a Polish electrician who visited our old house) so we tested running the router through a really long extension socket down to my office in the garden (I think that managed about 1MB download - we only tested it that evening).

So now that all the cables are back where they were last weekend (although we have fitted a new combined phone/filter socket for the extension) but we just can't get above 3.5MB.

Upload is a tad slow. Can you try a BT test, Dan?

I tried Rik's link to a BT test (worked first time on IE7) and it completed quite quickly this time, no errors:

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 7616 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3268 kbps

When I tried the test on Monday the test was saying my profile was 6500kbps (that test never finished to reveal anything else). Reading through a couple other recent posts about wiring it seems it might take 5 days for the profile to return to normal? If you've read this far does our activity sound like this is what has happened for us?

[Lance]

You've pretty much worked this one out for yourself! At some point with the activity (or possibly otherwise) your router has synced much lower than it's current level. This low sync has pushed your profile down. The bad news is, as you say, it might take up to 5 days for the profile to return to the correct level. Hopefully though as it is a quite large difference the timeframe will be reduced to up to 3 days.

The only other thing I'll add is that with your current sync, that is the maximum (depending on exchange equipment) for someone with interleaving on. If your router has error counts, you could post them with the router's uptime and line stats and we'll be able to advise whether you should get it turned off to gain the magic 8128 sync!

[Sebby]

Do you still have the ring wire removed in the socket that was replaced?

Sync is good - in fact, it's the maximum for an interleaved line (you could get better if you have interleaving switched off, but that depends on your current error count). The reason your throughput is poor is because the profile has been upset, probably by the disconnections. This will recover itself over the next few days. It's completely normal, by the way (and very frustrating at times!).

Stay away from extension leads with ADSL - they pick up lots of noise and reduce the sync.

[Dan]

Thanks Lance and Sebby. I guess we'll wait and see...

When you say "disconnections" - do you mean disconnections when sockets gets disconnected and rewired, or do you mean disconnections when the router is switched off? I turn our router off each night when I'm finished surfing - so it's usually off between 11pm and 9am most nights - does being green affect the profile?

(yes, ring wire is still removed). Are error counts the same as collisions?

[Rik]

That kind of disconnection isn't a problem, Dan, it's the type where the router drops due to noise on the line that cause an issue with the BT dynamic line management (DLM) software.

[Sebby]

In theory, switching off the router once a day hpuldnt be an issue, but I'd avoid doing it if possible.

[wecpcs]

Do you still have the ring wire removed in the socket that was replaced?

Sync is good - in fact, it's the maximum for an interleaved line (you could get better if you have interleaving switched off, but that depends on your current error count). The reason your throughput is poor is because the profile has been upset, probably by the disconnections. This will recover itself over the next few days. It's completely normal, by the way (and very frustrating at times!).

Stay away from extension leads with ADSL - they pick up lots of noise and reduce the sync.

I actually have a 5mt ASL lead from an Iplate on the master socket to my Netgear router, as I altered the layout in my computer room. But it is a quality shielded CAT5 cable instead of a normal extension cable and gives me no problems at all. I get the maximum sync of 8128 with a profile of 7150 and I received a throughput of 6.96Mb on day of activation (yesterday).

Colin

[Rik]

You're just trying to make me jealous, aren't you.