Loss of sync

[jane]

Happened last Friday and then again today, just now in fact

Fri, 2009-06-05 17:18:41 - Loss of synchronization :1
Fri, 2009-06-05 17:21:11 - Loss of synchronization :2
Fri, 2009-06-05 19:15:43 - Loss of synchronization :3
Fri, 2009-06-05 19:20:43 - Loss of synchronization :4
Mon, 2009-06-08 13:33:32 - Loss of synchronization :5
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:12:36 - Loss of synchronization :6
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:13:06 - Loss of synchronization :7
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:22:06 - Loss of synchronization :8
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:22:36 - Loss of synchronization :9
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:23:06 - Loss of synchronization :10
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:23:07 - LCP down.
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:23:16 - Initialize LCP.
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:23:16 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:23:36 - Loss of synchronization :11
Mon, 2009-06-08 16:23:36 - CHAP authentication success

Router DG834v2.

Anyone else having problems or know what's happening please?

Jane

[Rik]

No problems here, Jane. Loss of sync is usually local to you or your exchange. Are you moving to WBC?

[jane]

No chance, not until Q4_2011 if I remember correctly.

Probably them thar Cornish piskeys down at the Par exchange again.

Not too worried at the moment as I am just browsing. I'll see if it continues or if there is any pattern to it. Thanks Rik.

jane

[Rik]

Can your run Routerstats, that will log what's happening to your noise margin at the time of the disconnections.

[jane]

On the graph for today, showing steady at 10dB, then first loss dropped to 5dB, second to -2dB (?) and the third to 3dB.

On Friday the mean was 7dB with successive drops to 4, 2 and 1 dB.

The weekend was fine. Must be old Doris plugging in that dodgy kettle again.


jane

[Rik]

Those noise variations do suggest local noise problems, Jane. Do you have an NTE5 master socket, the type with the removable face plate?

[jane]

Unfortunately no, it's the old type. No extensions though and I have an xf-1e filter.

The noise can vary quite a lot during the day. Sometimes 13dB, sometimes 6. It has now dropped to 7.

It doesn't usually bother me as my speed stays pretty constant and I mostly use the web for genealogy research, not gaming or watching video etc. It was just these recent sync drops that caught my attention and I thought I would ask out of curiosity really.

[Rik]

What else is connected to the line, Jane?

[Sebby]

Which firmware do you have on your Netgear, Jane?

[jane]

DGteam (V3.01.31 - DGTeam Rev. 0849). Noise fluctuation was the same before I upgraded to it a few weeks ago though. In fact I haven't noticed any difference using it, I just like the added options and I got it working with RouterStas.

[Sebby]

I was wondering whether it was a version before the AR7 chipset issues were supposedly fixed, but I think that's fairly recent.

[jane]

Looks like there's an 850 version now (need to check what models it applies to) so 849 would be fairly recent. I don't think it's a firmware issue. More likely as Rik says it's the exchange and/or my line. I am amazed I can get 6-7 meg speeds considering I am out in the sticks. Pings are always quite high though but that's probably because of the distances involved.

[Rik]

You mean down to Cornwall?

[jane]

Yes, though I'm not as far down as Lands End! (might as well be sometimes). Isn't that what counts when you do speed tests etc? Or am I talking out of the back of my head as usual.
Just checked for the DG834v2 and 0849 is the latest version for that model.

jane

[Rik]

Distance does count, Jane, try pinging an Australian site and you'll see what I mean. I'd still expect you to have pings to www.idnet.net at <40ms, though, unless you have heavy interleaving on (or a congested exchange).  To put that in context, on a normal Max line, I ping 13ms to IDNet when interleaving is off, 23ms when it's on. If I use a business package, which has priority at the exchange, on an interleaved line, the figure drops to 19ms from 23ms.

[jane]

Actually I just tested (www.idnet.net) and it's 39ms which is pretty good for me and falls within your prediction. It's usually about 51ms unless something has happened since I last checked a couple of weeks ago.
No problem there then?

[Rik]

I don't think so, Jane. Put another way, it's taking 1/20th of a second for your ping to reach IDNet and have a response sent back to you.

[jane]

All's well apart from the mysterious sync losses then. Let's see if it happens tomorrow or if there's a pattern forming.

Thanks a lot guys 

[Rik]

If it keeps happening, it's almost certainly noise bursts, so we need to do some testing, though you will be inhibited by the lack of an NTE5. Do you have a battery-powered MW radio?

[jane]

Yes, if I can find the batteries! It has to be MW I take it?

[Rik]

It does, Jane. You need the batteries to avoid any noise from the mains and also to enable you to move it freely. ADSL works in the MW band, so detune the radio till you just have white noise, then follow the phone cable from where it enters the house to your router. If you hear the noise get louder or very 'buzzy' you've located a noise source.

[Ninny]

Rik, can I just ask whether you need to follow the cable from the point where it enters the house to your mains socket, or whether it's just from the mains socket to your router? I seem to be getting aome buzzing at the mains socket itself and also louder buzzing at a spot on the wall where the phone line comes down from the loft to the mains socket.

[Rik]

From the point of entry, or as close as you can to that, Ninny. Does the buzzing stop if the router is powered down?

[Ninny]

The buzzing remains even when the router is turned off. Also holding the radio close to the phone itself makes it produce a very loud buzzing, not sure why it's doing that, but will have to try and find another phone I suppose.

My IP profile has been down to minimum again for the last 3 days because I got up Wednesday and for some reason my noise margin had jumped to 31 dB. It's usually around 12 - 15 dB so there's something producing massive noise on the line intermittently - the sync drops many times a day - just a problem of locating what's doing it which is driving me mad. It's probably something between me and the exchange though and completely out of my control.

[Rik]

If the buzzing remains, it's possible you have mains cabling adjacent to the phone wiring, ideally they should be well separated and if they cross, should do so at right-angles. If the phone is DECT, the base stations on some models can produce a lot of RF noise. Try using a wired handset for a while and see if that improves things.

[Ninny]

It is a normal wired handset, Rik, this is why I find it odd to make that screeching noise. It's second hand though so who knows what could be wrong with it. I have a spare BT model phone somewhere and give that a go.

[Rik]

There should be nothing in that to cause a problem, Ninny. 

[Ninny]

Yes, but I'm clutching at straws here!

[Rik]

Sadly, so am I.

[Rik]

I've had a word with support, Ninny, who tell me that your line is showing upstream errors, despite having a good sync this morning. That almsot always indicates a noise problem within the house or in the immediate vicinity.

IIRC, you have your master socket in the loft and it is an NTE5? Can you, initially, move your router to the test socket, ie remove the faceplate and connect the router to the test socket which will be revealed? Keep it like that for a day or two. If the problems stop, then you are looking at an issue with your extension wiring. Do you have multiple extension sockets? If so, it would be a case of re-connecting one at a time and waiting a couple of days to see if they have an impact on stability.

It's always possible that the issue is external, but you'll need to 'acquit' your wiring before being able to tackle that. I have known a case where one faulty Sky box took out an entire street, it put so much noise on the line.

[Ninny]

Thanks Rik. I've tried this before though and was still getting line drops. We only have one master socket with no extensions, and wires are unconnected apart from the A + B pair.

The router is connected to this socket via a cat5 extension cable which goes through the loft, piped along right next to a tv aeriel wire, though I don't think this is the problem as when the router is moved to the master socket and plugged directly into the test socket I still get line drops and noise on the line.

But I wil plug the router directly in again via the test socket for a day or two just to see if there's any difference/improvement, and will monitor the results.

[Rik]

If there's no improvement, Ninny, you're looking at asking BT to sort the problem which could, depending where (or if) they find a fault, prove expensive. There's definitely noise there somewhere, the more you can do to track it down the better. I am right in thinking you've tried an alternative router, aren't I?

[Ninny]

Yes, I was using an eTec router, and Ted very kindly gave me a 2wire he had spare. Also Gary sent me a filtered faceplate to rule out fault filter issues. So I'm pretty convinced it's something external causing the problem as I've tried almost everything else. You never know though...

[Rik]

I think you're right, but we want to get you to the point where BT can't point the finger at anything after your master socket.

[Ninny]

It's been in the test socket for a day now and I'm still getting lots of line drops, this is what my noise margin looks like at some periods of the day:

[Rik]

Let IDNet have that graph, Ninny (and any more you collect). I think they are going to have to get BT out to you.

[Sebby]

Yep, think it's the only option.

[gwidnet]

Actually strangely I've had 3 losses of sync since yesterday as well

Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:25 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.15
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:36 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:37 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:44 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2002-09-08 12:00:46 - Send out NTP request to time-g.netgear.com
Sat, 2009-06-13 10:19:24 - Receive NTP Reply from time-g.netgear.com
Sat, 2009-06-13 10:20:09 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.15
Sat, 2009-06-13 10:18:38 - Router start up
Sat, 2009-06-13 10:29:03 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.15
Sat, 2009-06-13 11:51:29 - Loss of synchronization :1
Sat, 2009-06-13 12:29:19 - LCP down.
Sat, 2009-06-13 12:29:35 - Initialize LCP.
Sat, 2009-06-13 12:29:35 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sat, 2009-06-13 12:29:56 - CHAP authentication success
Sat, 2009-06-13 12:30:00 - Loss of synchronization :2
Sat, 2009-06-13 12:34:43 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.15
Sun, 2009-06-14 07:49:54 - Loss of synchronization :3
Sun, 2009-06-14 07:50:08 - LCP down.
Sun, 2009-06-14 07:50:13 - Initialize LCP.
Sun, 2009-06-14 07:50:13 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Sun, 2009-06-14 07:50:33 - CHAP authentication success
Sun, 2009-06-14 07:50:44 - Administrator login successful - IP:192.168.0.15

obviously not too much to get too worried about but I just thought I would let you know. this is unusual, it's been rock steady ages

(dg834g v1)

Glyn

[Rik]

Can you run Routerstats, Glyn, and see what your noise margin is doing over time?

[Sebby]

Also, as you're using a v1 Netgear, have you ensured you're running the latest firmware?

[Ninny]

Gah! I'm at my wits end, for the last 3 days my IP profile is set to 750k, without my sync ever dropping much below 3,000k it seems. The BT speedtester should have updated my Profile within a few hours of registering a 3,000 k sync but this is days later and still nothing.

I have tried sending copies of my Profile and routerstats screenshots but I keep getting told I need to contact BT about the issue. I have contacted BT about the issue a number of times and the same thing always gets done - nothing! The problem is INTERMITTANT so when the engineer turned up he just listened to the phone and said there wasn't a problem and then tried to charge me £160 before he left. BT's staff are so useless at doing anything I completely hate having to call them up, as I just get told lies about the line being tested and being fine.

I really wanted to IDnet to use their expertise to sort the problem out through BT directly, have someone visit the exchange or something. But they have said that since there is noise on my line it is a BT voice line problem. The point is my line is contantly dropping even when there is no apparent static on the line, but only rarely is there actually lots of noise when the phone is picked up. So I regard it as an ADSL problem more than a voice line problem. So what can I do about this? If I need to ring up BT is there anything specific I can use to actually get them to go to the exchange and run some tests, rather than just turn up at my house, do nothing, and try and charge me £160 again?

[Simon]

I know it's probably already been said, but you need to report it to BT as a VOICE fault, not an ADSL one, as they will take no notice otherwise, as long as you have some sort of ADSL service, no matter, it seems, how poor it is.  It does make things difficult when the problem is intermittent, but does it tie in with any particular weather events, or time of day / night, etc?

[Ninny]

Simon, I have already lodged a complaint about it a number of times registering it as a VOICE problem, no mention of ADSL. As I said, nothing gets done, an engineer turned up the first time and didn't do anything. They were going to send an engineer around again recently, but he never turned up - and as I said - I don't want an engineer coming to my house, I want someone to run tests at the exchange. I don't want someone to turn up here again and charge me £160 for nothing!

The point is there is rarely noise on the line yet my ADSL is dropping constantly - so I don't think this is a voice line fault. And there doesn't seem to be any pattern to it as far as I can discern. If I have to contact BT how do I get them to test things from the exchange? As I've had my router linked up to the test socket for days and the problem is exactly the same. It's driving me spare to be honest!

[Simon]

I understand the frustration, and it's ridiculous the lengths you have to go to to get BT to accept that there's a problem their side of the line.  I have to admit, I struggle with the technologies, so forgive me if this is useless, but it seems, reading back through the thread, that you've tried the test socket, and are still getting the disconnections.  I just wonder, could there be a problem with the actual test socket itself?  Is there any other wiring in the vicinity?  What's your external phone wiring like?  Has the ring wire we hear about so much been disconnected?  Sorry for clutching at straws, but it's the best I can do. 

[Rik]

Ninny, tell BT that you keep hearing other people's conversations when you use the phone. Allegedly, the first thing they'll do is change your exchange pair.

[Lance]

That's certainly what they did for me rik when I logged a intermittent cross talk problem.

[Sebby]

Yep, that sounds like a good idea to me.