Filesharing mum ordered to pay nearly $2m

[Noreen]

The first person to be successfully sued for illegal filesharing in the US has been ordered to pay a fine of nearly $2m (£1.22m) after a retrial. A court awarded the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) the increased amount of $1.92m after Jammie Thomas-Rasset was found guilty of wilfully violating the copyright of 24 songs. The 32-year-old single mother told reporters outside a Minneapolis court that the verdict was "kind of ridiculous" and "there's no way they're ever going to get that".

Thomas-Rasset was originally found guilty of copyright infringement in 2007 and was ordered to pay a fine of $222,000. She was one of around 30,000 individuals to be fined by the RIAA, typically for amounts between $3,000 – $10,000, for illegal filesharing via peer-to-peer sites such as Kazaa, used by Thomas-Rasset. A new trial was ordered after the judge in her original case said he had "erred in giving the jury instruction". Unfortunately for Thomas-Rasset, a new jury decided her crime warranted a much larger punishment, to the tune of $80,000 per song.............

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/jun/19/filesharing-single-mother

[Simon]

OK, so she was in the wrong, and got caught, but it seems a hugely exaggerated amount for only 24 songs.

[Noreen]

It's laughable considering that they haven't a hope of getting it.

[Simon]

Indeed, Noreen.  The music industry doesn't exactly seem to be skint anyway, does it?

[Noreen]

This is one of the posts on the American forum that I belong to, I wouldn't dare repeat some of them.

Enforcing copyright law is one thing, but fines way beyond the scale of the crime another. The jury might as well put a pinky to their mouths and proclaimed "One BILLION dollars!" The law was written at a time when copyright infringers were operations looking to make a quick buck off other peoples' work. It was never meant to be applied to some home user who shared out their music directory. There should be a fine for commercial infringement (current fines are ok for that) and non-commercial infringement (10x market cost would be good for that). This way the fines will still sting a bit, but won't result in life-destroying bankruptcy. Jammie Thomas would have faced a lower fine if she walked into Best Buy and tucked 2 CDs into her jacket pocket. (24 songs = ~2 CDs' worth)

[zappaDPJ]

I saw that this morning and couldn't help but laugh. I think I'll have some of whatever the judge was on when he awarded that sentence 

[colonelsun]

Well if they were all Britney Spears' songs she did the world a favour.

[john]

Just possibly the judge awarded such a ridiculous amount because he/she knew that she hasn't a hope in paying it and therefore the record companies probably won't even get a cent. If he had awarded say $1000 then she might have been expected to find and pay such an amount and that would have been some deterrent to others. As it stands I can see that those on very low incomes will just say sorry, but they can't pay and enforcing any action like prison will end up costing the state more.

[Noreen]

Not that it makes a great deal of difference but the penalty was actually awarded by the "grand jury" not the judge.

[zappaDPJ]

Well spotted, I'd forgotten they have a somewhat different legal system in the U.S.

[Sebby]

$2m for 24 songs? I'd hate to think what the majority of illegal downloaders would have to pay if they were caught. It sounds to me like this was just an easy target to make an example out of.

[Odos]

$2m for 24 songs? I'd hate to think what the majority of illegal downloaders would have to pay if they were caught. It sounds to me like this was just an easy target to make an example out of.

Surely it would have the opposite effect. If people are gonna get fined that amount for just a few songs they are going to decide they may as well get fined for 10000 downloads as just 100.

[colonelsun]

If this judgement is designed to scare off regular and new illegal downloads...then it's failed. If you're downloading free songs then you're definitely not rich. As for the music industry thinking it's got one over the consumer...then i fear the industry is out of touch.

If you're even going to begin to educate the public about illegal downloads then you begin with the young. Stop handing out free music CDs with every teen magazine, the kids think everything is for free. The industry could try cutting out some of the 'fat'..for example large recording studios are an anathema when you can do the same thing on a computer, how about making the cost of the CD the same wherever you go and do the same with downloads....why should the UK be paying 2 dollars more than the Americans?

The music industry could get itself out of this mess through education, unfortunately they're looking at the problem in the short term.

[Simon]

for example large recording studios are an anathema when you can do the same thing on a computer

Ah, we disagree there.  Sure, you can make throwaway pop pap on a laptop (and god knows, the pop charts are full of it), but decent music requires a proper recording studio, and you can never replicate on a computer, the organic sound of real musicians, playing real instruments, together. 

[gizmo71]

but decent music requires a proper recording studio, and you can never replicate on a computer, the organic sound of real musicians, playing real instruments, together. 

You can build a half decent recording studio in a garage these days.

Besides, 'decent' music with lasting appeal requires good songwriting above all else and there's precious little of that in the mainstream music industry.

[colonelsun]

I agree with you both but the music the kids listen to today usually starts off in a kids' bedroom or as a basic demo tape. Commercial, throw away music, such as is in the charts, may have cost little to produce in a studio it's the promotion that's crippling to the industry. In a world where popular, throw away music, has less and less relevance, the kid's want it for nothing, why keep the huge studios that no longer accommodate the big acts of yesteryear.

[Gary]

I agree with you both but the music the kids listen to today usually starts off in a kids' bedroom or as a basic demo tape. Commercial, throw away music, such as is in the charts, may have cost little to produce in a studio it's the promotion that's crippling to the industry. In a world where popular, throw away music, has less and less relevance, the kid's want it for nothing, why keep the huge studios that no longer accommodate the big acts of yesteryear.

The same thing is said as each generation gets older I am sure, the music is as relevant to "the kids" as it was to us when we were young, just because we may not like it does not mean its less meaningful, or rubbish compared with "stick your preferred style of golden oldie here"  The process is called getting old, and if we can't listen to music without floundering in the past then we are missing the point of the greatest form of communication on the planet. Digging our heels in and refusing to hear whats out there is something we can all do at times. I still find relevance in today's sounds though, not chart based material really as its very mainstream and I never was one for the charts even when I was young, but the occasional song would stir great feelings never the less. Commercial throw away music to you or I is to another the greatest sound around, and no less relevant than what we enjoyed. I find a lot of the Breakbeat dance scene to be damn uplifting and full of energy and that's created on laptops, I guess I listen to a song on the merits of how it makes me feel now, not how I felt twenty years ago though, keeping your ears tuned to the wonders of many forms of music is a great way to explore the world around us. 

[colonelsun]

Well one thing's for sure:if i were burgled tomorrow no thief would waste his time with my CD collection. Alma Cogan, show tunes from Broadway, 70s & 80s pop, classical, blues and German experimental synth. Dig a bit deeper and you get to old fashioned LPs, though i'm sure a young burglar today would dismiss the LP as some kind of table mat.

[Simon]

Or a Frisbee.

[dujas]

She allegedly was sharing just under 2000 songs at the time, but for reasons unknown they selected to sue her for only sharing 24. She also was found to be somewhat selective with the truth whilst under oath, so the jury slapped her with wilful copyright infringement, which means higher fines. Nevertheless I can't see how financially ruining someone is justified.

[colonelsun]

Or a Frisbee.

Yeah....that's what my 3 year old niece used my Blondie LP as.

[colonelsun]

She allegedly was sharing just under 2000 songs at the time, but for reasons unknown they selected to sue her for only sharing 24. She also was found to be somewhat selective with the truth whilst under oath, so the jury slapped her with wilful copyright infringement, which means higher fines. Nevertheless I can't see how financially ruining someone is justified.

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment.....i wonder just how much of the trial the jury understood....the music industry is well known for confusing juries and presenting inaccurate testimony.

I also wonder just how many people on the jury have used file sharing sites themselves? And how many of them were parents who went directly to their kids' computer the moment the trial ended?

[dujas]

The RIAA were surprised at the size of the fine. I guess her defence didn't do a good enough job of educating the jury about how widespread 'copyright infringement' can be on the net. Joel Tenenbaum must be chewing his fingernails

[colonelsun]

It's all so un-necessary and really proves that the music industry is wanting a short term fix for a long-time problem. I would have hoped the industry might include the music fan in combatting piracy, instead they seem intent on alienating them. Both sides need to come up with an answer to file-sharing otherwise nothing moves forwards.

[glen]

As far as I'm concerned it's all about control.  A touch of big brother if you like, just letting you know the authorities are stiil in charge, and you're right there is no need for it, it's pathetic, but then again big criminal organisations do like to have control over everything. Just my opinion from a bit of research.

[glen]

And as for confusing juries, wouldn't be hard to confuse an American jury.

[dujas]

I see it as a simple give/take struggle between the content providers who want to protect the income from their intellectual property and the consumer who generally just wants value for money. Internet piracy has shaken up that balance.

I think the 'anger' from the consumer is caused by the perception that corporations, instead of adapting to a new business model, they intensify their political lobbying to resist the change.

[colonelsun]

And as for confusing juries, wouldn't be hard to confuse an American jury.

I wouldn't say American juries are any more dafter than ours, in fact both legal systems suffer the same problems in that they both find it hard to select suitable members for a jury. Most people hope to avoid jury duty at all costs and some people simply don't want to be a juror.....none of these people make suitable jurors but the courts find it harder to pick and choose.

[Gary]

Well one thing's for sure:if i were burgled tomorrow no thief would waste his time with my CD collection. Alma Cogan, show tunes from Broadway, 70s & 80s pop, classical, blues and German experimental synth. Dig a bit deeper and you get to old fashioned LPs, though i'm sure a young burglar today would dismiss the LP as some kind of table mat.

Have you got some Klaus Schulze in that experimental synth?

[colonelsun]

Have you got some Klaus Schulze in that experimental synth?

Mainly pre 1980s stuff, post 1980 his music turned a corner becoming more mainstream and more accessible. I've got albums like 1979s Dune, 1978s X and Timewind.

Thanks to Schulze i got into the commercial  Kraftwerk back catalogue.

Oddly, women hate this type of music, not sure why?

[Gary]

Mainly pre 1980s stuff, post 1980 his music turned a corner becoming more mainstream and more accessible. I've got albums like 1979s Dune, 1978s X and Timewind.

Thanks to Schulze i got into the commercial  Kraftwerk back catalogue.

Oddly, women hate this type of music, not sure why?

I had audentity that went on for hours as a double album, loved it, I was a tangerine dream fan as well, early 70's stuff, and Kraftwerk, Dune was great. An yes women do but hy I loved it and still do  first rtime I have found someone who listens to that in years 

[colonelsun]

I had audentity that went on for hours as a double album, loved it, I was a tangerine dream fan as well, early 70's stuff, and Kraftwerk, Dune was great. An yes women do but hy I loved it and still do  first rtime I have found someone who listens to that in years 

I thought i was all alone in liking this type of music too. Schulze's music wasn't available in local shops so i had to hunt all over for it, and when i found an alternative music shop i didn't bump into the usual crowd that shopped at Woolies. So i was always on the fringes, the guy with the unusual music taste, heck my mother really worried for me.

I told her once that i'd joined the Moonies and she simply said "Ok honey, at least you'll have someone else to swap your CDs with ".

[Simon]

  I used to love spending an afternoon browsing round the record shops in The Lanes, down in Brighton, and made some good finds there.  There was also a place in Croydon called Beanos which was fantastic, and once in a while, I would travel up to Oxford Street to the massive HMV.  Whilst the Internet has made shopping for music much easier, and it's great for finding the more diverse material, I haven't actually been to a record shop for probably nearly 10 years, and I do miss that a bit.

[Gary]

I thought i was all alone in liking this type of music too. Schulze's music wasn't available in local shops so i had to hunt all over for it, and when i found an alternative music shop i didn't bump into the usual crowd that shopped at Woolies. So i was always on the fringes, the guy with the unusual music taste, heck my mother really worried for me.

I told her once that i'd joined the Moonies and she simply said "Ok honey, at least you'll have someone else to swap your CDs with ".

I know the feeling, I used to , like Simon go down to Brighton and go hunting down the lanes for the kind of music I liked, Vinyl Demand was excellent, it was good to find others with your taste in sounds, I was always on the fringes at school because of my musical taste, and I am glad I was  . I really miss going down there, going thoiugh all the albums, having that mental blank of what you wanted as you found so much...I found most of Schulzes's music on import, always more expensive but so good to have, this really brings back some great memories.... good days

[colonelsun]

Simon, Gary....you two have bought a warm smile to my face tonight. I'm the only one in the family to have avant garde tastes in music, books, even tv, so i was pretty much left to my own devices and thankfully my parents didn't think strange music tastes equalled drugs and worse. I met some of my best friends in dusty, bleak record shops...where weird and wonderful human beings drifted past wearing next to nothing or clad in leather, lace and huge felt hats. Hell, if my mother only knew what i got up to on these frequent visits she would have had a coronary, it was much worse later on.

I've already chosen the music to which i will be cremated by, some German experimental synth, a classical piece, and my coffin will disappear behind the curtains to the theme of Countdown.

[Simon]

I know the feeling, I used to , like Simon go down to Brighton and go hunting down the lanes for the kind of music I liked, Vinyl Demand was excellent, it was good to find others with your taste in sounds, I was always on the fringes at school because of my musical taste, and I am glad I was  . I really miss going down there, going thoiugh all the albums, having that mental blank of what you wanted as you found so much...I found most of Schulzes's music on import, always more expensive but so good to have, this really brings back some great memories.... good days

Yes, I loved getting hold of imports, as it felt like no one else had it (it's the same now, with phones - lol!).  I also used to dabble with live bootlegs, but the quality of most of them was very poor, so I never bough that many.  Vinyl Demand was brilliant, and the Wax Factor, I think it was called.  There was also one on the corner of Sydney Street, IIRC, and Tiger Music, also in Sydney Street, was where I bought my first electric guitar!  There was also a great t-shirt shop down there as well.

I don't share the same music tastes as you two - in fact, I really quite dislike electronic stuff.  I was (am) more into rock, some heavy metal, prog,  and blues.  Great vocalists, and a really good drum sound were the main criteria I looked for, but I used to buy albums simply by the look of the cover, and discovered some very good bands that way, that I have followed ever since.

Dave, yes I also know what it is to be a music outcast within the family!  They were more into mainstream pop, and my tastes never went down well at home. 

[colonelsun]

Ironically my 21 year old niece is following in my footsteps but alas i get the feeling i'm getting too old to appreciate her tastes now. The internet means she can download a new song by an obscure group in seconds...it's all so easy for her. But i do feel she's missing out on the visits to record stores, the atmosphere and the people there. And i still like CDs and vinyl...i like to feel the music is a physical thing...something to hold. With downloads that's impossible unless you burn and save to disk, something she doesn't do as the next trend has already arrived.

[Simon]

I agree, the whole package, artwork, lyrics, etc is much more of a pleasurable experience than a download.  I use downloads for odd random tracks, but if a band or artist I like brings out a new album, I would always buy the CD.

[Sebby]

The problem is, how long will it be before CDs aren't released anymore? Probably not all that long.

[Simon]

That's a worrying thought, Seb.  CD singles are already a rarity.  I used to like them, for the extra tracks they often contained.

[Sebby]

I do know what you mean. For me, the issue is that I'll only rip it to put on my iPod anyway, and I think that's the way a lot of people think these days.

[Simon]

Maybe, but then you lose some sound quality.

[Gary]

Maybe, but then you lose some sound quality.

True, people still have expensive Hi-Fi so they can listen to the music with greater Clarity and depth. I dont use an iPod or mp3 player anymore, I do not go out enough to ever warrant it, I listen to my CD's on my home system, and docking an ipod is not going to provide that clarity.

[colonelsun]

That's a worrying thought, Seb.  CD singles are already a rarity.  I used to like them, for the extra tracks they often contained.

Well the industry won't be thinking of our generation ....we get palmed off with re releases and boxed sets and then they try to sell us the same product all over again on some new format. It'll be the very few that currently by CDs that will make the decision to carry on with them but the majority seem to prefer downloads, illegal or not.

When i was a kid there were 14 record shops in my nearest town and now there's none, if i want to physically buy and hold music my nearest store is 45 miles away....lately though i've been shopping online, i just can't justify a 45 mile journey for a few CDs with petrol prices as they are.

[Gary]

Well the industry won't be thinking of our generation ....we get palmed off with re releases and boxed sets and then they try to sell us the same product all over again on some new format. It'll be the very few that currently by CDs that will make the decision to carry on with them but the majority seem to prefer downloads, illegal or not.

When i was a kid there were 14 record shops in my nearest town and now there's none, if i want to physically buy and hold music my nearest store is 45 miles away....lately though i've been shopping online, i just can't justify a 45 mile journey for a few CDs with petrol prices as they are.

I buy from THIS site, they do old vinly, some I used to have and are rare, wish I never sold them  but I can get CD's and CD singles straight from sellers in the US cheaper than I can in the UK. Also I can get CD rarities as well, picked up a D single of Orbitals Satan, original issue, very hard to come buy for £7 sent from a seller in California, list price now is £25 so I did well. It caters for all tastes, Jazz, Blues what ever you like, I go from Zappa to Marilyn  Manson, Tangerine Dream to Pendulum, to Orbital. I get good bargains on there. I used to have a Jello Biafra Album on CD. last Scream of the missing Neighbour, cannot get it in the UK £5 from that site 

[colonelsun]

Hey Gary... what a site, thanks for the link. I feel like a kid inside a sweet shop. I fear my credit card is going to have to be more flexible than usual.

[Gary]

Hey Gary... what a site, thanks for the link. I feel like a kid inside a sweet shop. I fear my credit card is going to have to be more flexible than usual.

Glad you like it  it had all the albums I used to have and sold or lost as I moved around and could not find anymore, sadly though my original Joes garage acts one two and three are just a tad to expensive to replace, as was my original 1969 bearsville import of Hot rats, why did I sell them 

[Simon]

I shall have to have a good browse round that site, Gary - cheers! 

[Gary]

I shall have to have a good browse round that site, Gary - cheers! 

 

[quandam]

I buy from THIS site, they do old vinly, some I used to have and are rare, wish I never sold them  but I can get CD's and CD singles straight from sellers in the US cheaper than I can in the UK. Also I can get CD rarities as well, picked up a D single of Orbitals Satan, original issue, very hard to come buy for £7 sent from a seller in California, list price now is £25 so I did well. It caters for all tastes, Jazz, Blues what ever you like, I go from Zappa to Marilyn  Manson, Tangerine Dream to Pendulum, to Orbital. I get good bargains on there. I used to have a Jello Biafra Album on CD. last Scream of the missing Neighbour, cannot get it in the UK £5 from that site 

Gary,

No Vera Lynn 78's I presume??

[Gary]

Gary,

No Vera Lynn 78's I presume??

I didnt know you were that old Q 

[colonelsun]

I didnt know you were that old Q 

I would second that emotion....as Diana Ross said.

Q's avatar suggests a 25 year old to me.

[Simon]

A 25 year old what? 

[dujas]

And another one bites the dust

A US student has been ordered to pay $675,000 (£404,000) to four record labels for breaking copyright laws after sharing music online.

[Rik]

American damages really are unrealistic in cases like this. To think that they're set by a jury of his peers. 

[dujas]

Well it seems to be how the American legal system works; take a plea bargain before it gets to court and you usually receive a significantly reduced sentence and/or fine. If you refuse and push it to a trial but lose your case, then you have to expect a much more severe punishment.

[Rik]

It seems to be creeping in over here.

[john]

American damages really are unrealistic in cases like this. To think that they're set by a jury of his peers. 

I can only imagine that most of the jury work or are getting a cut from the record companies.

[Gary]

The sentence is really over the top but no two ways about it the guy is a thief, if you break a law even one that you think is unfair becuase the industry makes enough in your eyes, you still have stolen and then fenced off goods, plain and simple. If you can afford a pc and the internet you can afford to buy your music.

[Rik]

I don't dispute the basic argument, Gary, but I do think a little Gilbert and Sullivan needs to be applied.

[Simon]

How do they ever hope to get anything like that sort of amount out of a student?   

[Rik]

How come he doesn't seem too unhappy?

[Gary]

I don't dispute the basic argument, Gary, but I do think a little Gilbert and Sullivan needs to be applied.

No I agree Rik, slamming people to make examples is not the way to do it, the last poor womean who got fined that ridiculous amount will never pay it off and this guy, I guess it will ruin his life as he will never pay it off and thats wrong, ban them from the net at home or at any given time in the future is they apply that would have more effect than a fine that is sky high and in the end will never get paid

[Gary]

How come he doesn't seem too unhappy?

$5 a month after means testing maybe?

[Rik]

Possible.

[Gary]

Possible.

Of its a fine thats not really enforceable due to the fact you cannot put a guy on the streets for music sharing, so its all done with smoke and mirrors for effect?

[dujas]

He will appeal, so its not over just yet plus he got his 15 minutes of fame; "But make no mistake: JOEL FOUGHT BACK"  

[Rik]

I wonder how he affords the legal bills?

[dujas]

Pro bono for the publicity? It does appear to be mainly law students doing the work.

[Rik]

Could well be.

[Gary]

Pro bono for the publicity? It does appear to be mainly law students doing the work.

Can you imagine someone in the UK being fined that? If so how long before Max Clifford took the fight to the press for his pound of flesh

[Rik]

I think he's gone metric, Gary.

[Gary]

I think he's gone metric, Gary.

I hope that scene is never re-written to be in metric for the European unions want of regulation across nations 

[Rik]

We should do it as an exercise.

[Gary]

We should do it as an exercise.

Shylock:
Most learnèd judge, a sentence! Come prepare!

Portia:
Tarry a little, there is something else.
This bond doth give thee here no jot of blood;
The words expressly are "a kilogram of flesh."

[Rik]

Surely that should be 400 grams?

[Gary]

Surely that should be 400 grams?

I was rounding it up, tsk 

[Rik]

Gary the shopkeeper.

[Gary]

Gary the shopkeeper.

More like the Merchant of Menace but don't ask for your order a day in advance, I'll forget