Thus & Demon

[Tacitus]

There's some interesting speculation here as to whether C & W who recently aquired Thus are going to sell part of it.  Since it seems the Demon brand will in future be limited to the consumer and SME markets, this might be the division that is up for sale.

This could turn into a replay of the Pipex saga.  A once great ISP asset stripped, mismanaged and, the remains sold off to anybody with some loose change.

[Simon]

I was tempted to go with Demon at one stage, but I heard so many mixed reports about customer service, and they were also quite expensive, so I was put off them.

[Tacitus]

I was tempted to go with Demon at one stage, but I heard so many mixed reports about customer service, and they were also quite expensive, so I was put off them.

TBH I don't regard them as particularly expensive - 60Gb for £23/month is not excessive when you look at (say) iDNet's 30Gb for £24 or so.  However their customer service has really gone down the pan with the move to Bangalore and, there is simply no comparison with iDNet.   When I first joined in the days of dial-up, you could ring Finchley 24/7 and speak to someone with comprehensible English who actually knew what they were talking about. 

Now, with Bangalore it's pure luck of the draw what you get.  That said the majority of the problems I have, are down to BT and their poor lines.

If there is any truth in it, it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[Rik]

Do they still use their Turnpike(?) software?

[Tacitus]

Do they still use their Turnpike(?) software?

I believe so Rik.  As a Mac user I've never tried it 

Interestingly there seems to be a flurry of complaints on the Demon section of TB.  Some of this is to do with ADSL2, which Demon appears to be moving people to without any option.  Others concern the poor level of customer service, which could be a symptom of Thus getting it ready for sale.

What seems to be happening is the increasing concentration of mass broadband into a few large companies, with others like iDNet/Zen/AAISP etc serving niche markets at a premium price.  How long they can sustain this type of business model remains to be seen. 

[Rik]

I hated Turnpike, Tac. Ghastly piece of software which caused me to move swiftly on.

I know what you mean. Increasingly, the market is getting tighter and the recession will hit the niche companies harder imo.

[Tacitus]

Increasingly, the market is getting tighter and the recession will hit the niche companies harder imo.

I think a lot will depend on the proportion of domestic to business customers that each ISP has.  It never ceases to surprise me the number of complaints on TB from people who go to one of the pile it high sell it cheap ISPs, and then complain, 'I run a business which depends on the internet and the customer service from X is rubbish'.

If an ISP has a decent number of business customers I think they are more likely to survive since a business which depends on good internet access is usually prepared to pay accordingly, provided the service and support are reliable.

[Edit for spelling]

[Rik]

And IDNet do have a sizeable business market.

[Tacitus]

And IDNet do have a sizeable business market.

Good to know.  They seem to be following a decent strategy at the moment upping the allowances for WBC customers, although that could backfire going by the AAISP blog.  No matter how low your expectations of BT they will always fall short.

[Rik]

 

So true...

[colonelsun]

I was tempted to go with Demon at one stage, but I heard so many mixed reports about customer service, and they were also quite expensive, so I was put off them.

Demon was my joint first choice when i decided i'd had enough of Sky broadband......IDNET was the other. To be honest all i had to go on was a load of Google searches on each company to make my final choice. IDNET was the clear winner because i couldn't find any negative posts about the company. I usually hate basing any opinion on search engine results alone but sometimes there's no other option.

[Simon]

I get the impression that, like Pipex, Demon used to be a good ISP, but have gone downhill in recent years.  We're glad you chose IDNet, Dave. 

[Tacitus]

I get the impression that, like Pipex, Demon used to be a good ISP, but have gone downhill in recent years.  We're glad you chose IDNet, Dave. 

I think that's about right Simon they certainly aren't what they once were, although they still have a way to go before reaching the dismal levels achieved by Pipex in their Tiscali years.  I can attest to that as my sister was on Pipex before I pushed her over to iDNet.  Needless to say she's well pleased with the idea she can now ring support and get someone who knows what they are talking about.  For her, it 'just works'.

To be fair, in my experience the Demon product is not that bad; although my profile has just reached the dizzy heights of 1750k, throughput is almost always around 85/90% of profile, suggesting they are not over stretching their network.  It's their once excellent customer support which has really gone downhill as they moved it to Bangalore.

The real problem for me has always been BTs poor lines and, a move to anyone else - no decent LLU around here - is unlikely to change that significantly. 

[RichR]

I get the impression that, like Pipex, Demon used to be a good ISP, but have gone downhill in recent years.  We're glad you chose IDNet, Dave. 

You're spot on with that.
I don't want to worry anybody but I used to be with Demon and then they were taken over by Thus and rapidly went downhill. So I moved to Eclipse who were really good and then were taken over by Kingston Communications and rapidly went downhill. Then I moved to IDNet who are really good  ... :-)

[Rik]

 

But BT have taken over Kingston, so the chain has been broken.

[Ray]

I think you're safe, I came to Idnet from Eclipse just over 3 years ago and all is still fine. 

[Rik]

I'm rapidly approaching the 3-year mark too, Ray, doesn't time fly.

[Ray]

it does indeed, Rik. 

[alhenderson]

I hated Turnpike, Tac. Ghastly piece of software which caused me to move swiftly on.

I know what you mean. Increasingly, the market is getting tighter and the recession will hit the niche companies harder imo.

Demon were my first ISP too.  Those were the days :-)  They were good, although I'll agree with your comments about Turnpike - bloody awful piece of software..

Al.

[Rik]

I actually knew someone who liked it, Al. 

[alhenderson]

I actually knew someone who liked it, Al. 

Perhaps their guide dog liked it...

[Rik]

 

Quite possible.

[colonelsun]

I get the impression that, like Pipex, Demon used to be a good ISP, but have gone downhill in recent years.  We're glad you chose IDNet, Dave. 

Thanks Simon.

My searches nearly always indicated business customers were fed up with the service and complained that their email wasn't always available. As a residential customer myself i wanted to know what it was like for people like me, and people like me were leaving in droves.

I'd add that a lot of the results were very complimentary prior to 2003/2004.

[Sebby]

Sounds very much like Pipex.

[colonelsun]

All this just goes to prove how difficult it is for anybody to get a decent, reliable broadband provider. IDNET was my fourth and last attempt.

[dujas]

Just avoid being tied into a 12/18 month contract, then it's not a major issue if the ISP doesn't live up to expectations.

[Rik]

All this just goes to prove how difficult it is for anybody to get a decent, reliable broadband provider. IDNET was my fourth and last attempt.

Going back to semaphore then, Dave?  

Congrats on your 500th post.

[colonelsun]

Just avoid being tied into a 12/18 month contract, then it's not a major issue if the ISP doesn't live up to expectations.

But that's so difficult to do when you've just joined the broadband world and know nothing about other companies. For most of my friends, and myself, the only way to find another broadband provider is by using a search engine like Broadband Choices, but they don't let on that you get to search only a limited number of companies, usually the big boys, and they may have paid to be included in any search. And nearly all these companies tie you into a year's contract or more.

IDNET never showed up on these search engines, i never found IDNET in the usual way. I found about this place from a satellite forum.

[colonelsun]

Going back to semaphore then, Dave?  

Congrats on your 500th post.

I would sell my own grandmother to keep IDNET as my ISP.

[Rik]

IDNET never showed up on these search engines, i never found IDNET in the usual way. I found about this place from a satellite forum.

We're known about in space?  

[Rik]

I would sell my own grandmother to keep IDNET as my ISP.

So would I, if I had any left.

[dujas]

For most of my friends, and myself, the only way to find another broadband provider is by using a search engine like Broadband Choices, but they don't let on that you get to search only a limited number of companies, usually the big boys

Well if I go to your example, Broadband Choices, and change contract length to one month, several Zen packages are listed and clicking further details shows they've won numerous awards for customer service from the more mainstream media; it's not totally a lost cause!

The real issue is that most consumers don't really want to pay more than £15 per month for broadband, but that pricing model is only sustainable for light users when you're totally reliant on BT wholesale for transit. So it seems, in terms of choice, the market is contracting, as few companies are able to subsidise the cost of providing broadband with other streams of income.

[zappaDPJ]

In my view, the best way to choose an ISP is though the thinkbroadband forums http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/

They present a very accurate snapshot of ISP happiness/unhappiness in the 'User comments on ISPs' section.

[Tacitus]

In my view, the best way to choose an ISP is though the thinkbroadband forums http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/
They present a very accurate snapshot of ISP happiness/unhappiness in the 'User comments on ISPs' section.

Interestingly there seem to be a lot of complaints about Demon recently much of it related to WBC, which customers are being moved to without, in some cases notice and, in all of them with no choice.  It seems the problems with WBC are not limited to iDNet but are pretty general.

Say what you like about iDNet, but they are offering to put you back to Max, are sharing the cost benefits with the customers and, the greatest benefit of all you don't have to deal with Bangalore to sort out the problems.  

[Rik]

Nor do you have to go to WBC in the first place, Tac. The problems seem to stem from the fact that BT are unable or unwilling to move people back to DSLAMs, possibly because they are ripping them out as fast as they can.

[Tacitus]

Nor do you have to go to WBC in the first place, Tac. The problems seem to stem from the fact that BT are unable or unwilling to move people back to DSLAMs, possibly because they are ripping them out as fast as they can.

BT strikes again 

[colonelsun]

Well if I go to your example, Broadband Choices, and change contract length to one month, several Zen packages are listed and clicking further details shows they've won numerous awards for customer service from the more mainstream media; it's not totally a lost cause!

The real issue is that most consumers don't really want to pay more than £15 per month for broadband, but that pricing model is only sustainable for light users when you're totally reliant on BT wholesale for transit. So it seems, in terms of choice, the market is contracting, as few companies are able to subsidise the cost of providing broadband with other streams of income.

Zen wouldn't come to my area if it was the last place in Britain that still had money to spend. My choices using that, or any comparison site would be Virgin (their email said my line was unstable) or AOL (no thanks been with them) and 3 other companies. As for awards AOL have won numerous awards but that means nothing if you're trapped in a 12 month contract, all my previous ISPs have won awards but they were cr*p. If i hadn't stumbled across IDNET i was about to ditch the web altogether.....my ISP choices were that bad.

[Rik]

Surely Zen would be available to you?

[colonelsun]

Surely Zen would be available to you?

The only person i know who has Zen in my area lives around 35 miles away, they don't advertise in my area nor have i seen Zen's name appear when i do a phone number search on a broadband comparison site. Before i joined IDNET even entering my postcode & phone number on their website resulted in a sorry message.

My exchange is ancient...so i'm told.

[Rik]

But they use the same underlying BT services as IDNet. 

[Simon]

Perhaps Zen can foresee potential problems, and don't want to get involved?  Or maybe they are only now taking WBC enabled customers? 

[Rik]

Who knows?

[Simon]

Not me. 

[Niall]

I get the impression that, like Pipex, Demon used to be a good ISP, but have gone downhill in recent years.  We're glad you chose IDNet, Dave. 

Oh I dunno. I've heard nothing but bad things about Demon from a few people I know well, for the last 5 years. Basically look at Talk Talk and that's the service they were getting.

[Simon]

That's what I meant by 'recent years', Niall.  It's amazing how time flies. 

[axisofevil]

I left demon a couple of years ago.
That was after about 10 years - with the last few being sheer frustration with their useless Indian operation.
Since then, I would never knowingly sign-up with an ISP who have a significant overseas support operation.

BTW Turnpike was an excellent product - I even paid for the enhanced features licence.
Had to dump it, when I moved from M$ to Linux.

[Rik]

I could never get on with Turnpike, it's why I moved on from Demon, back in dial-up days.

[Tacitus]

I left demon a couple of years ago.
That was after about 10 years - with the last few being sheer frustration with their useless Indian operation.
Since then, I would never knowingly sign-up with an ISP who have a significant overseas support operation.

Sadly it's the Indian support that is their Achilles heel.  The product itself is not that bad in my experience, any problems I have had are down to BT and their poor quality lines.  But I'm not being forced onto WBC. Yet.

Those currently moaning about iDNet should try having the same sort of problems and dealing with Bangalore.  I imagine they would rapidly lose the will to live.

[Niall]

On a slight tangent I phoned "3" before to alter my direct debit and had to deal with an Indian call centre. They were actually quite good for once, so I suppose it could have been an Indian fella working here

In order to amend my DD with them I have to cancel it (which they've already done because my DD failed two months in a row as I get paid two days after) and I had to pay over the phone, then I have to phone them back in 6 days to re set up a direct debit for the first week of the month. I then have to call them on the 26th to advise them I wont be paying by DD on the 27th (which they already know!) and arrange to pay via debit card 3 days later, then call again on the 1st of the month to check everything is set up and the balance of the 27th - 1st is paid.

You wonder why I don't like direct debit? The above is the reason.

[Simon]

Nothing's simple any more.  And technology is aupposed to make things better!

[gizmo71]

I had a friend who worked for Demon. He loved it, and I went for two interviews there (and was offered a job, they obviously recognised talent ) but turned them down on the basis that they expected lots of unpaid overtime, only offered 10 days paid annual leave (wouldn't be legal now!), and I'd be on probation for a year (or six months, can't remember) - all on the back of a mediocre salary.

Good decision to turn them down - six months later I'd gone contracting and doubled my income.

[Rik]

You sure that wasn't the Civil Service, Giz?

[Tacitus]

......all on the back of a mediocre salary.

Then they went really mediocre and outsourced to Bangalore.  The pay over there must be truly abysmal.