Disconnection problems

[Chris Dutton]

Hi all,

Anyone got any advice?

i am suffering intermittant disconnection problems (when it happens i get the flashing internet light on my linksys wag160n router)

when it occurs the phone line in invevitably noisy, crackles etc etc

now the fun bit, i have had this issue for around 2-3 years and have had many visits from bt engineers and amounting costs due to no faults being found by them, but have been able to get the costs back from bt as i can prove i am having disconnection problems

bt have fitted the filter to the bt master socket by the front door, i have 2 extensions from the socket to 2 telephones, my router is plugged direct into the master socket via the bt filter, bt had found and fixed the problem apperently around 12 months ago (corrosion at one of the junction boxes) but the problem died off but never really went away

i have moved isp as plusnet my previous isp had no interest (oh and over charged me for 18 months) so am hoping that someone somewhere might be my shining light and show me the way forward

cheers

chris

[Sebby]

There is definitely something wrong with the line. Do you know if BT have tried switching you to a new pair? In the mean time, have you tried the test socket behind the front plate of your BT master socket? It would be good to eliminate your internal wiring as the cause initially.

[Chris Dutton]

hiya sebby,

yeah i have tried the test plate inside the bt socket and the noise is the same

it doesnt do it all the time, it happened around 8:20 this evening with around 5 disconnections in a row, crackling quite alot on the line

and at the same time lastnight

now on my third router, before was a netger dg834gt i think and the one before i cant remember and the performance is all about the same

i only joined idnet on yesterday after a glowing recommendation from a younger cousin, as i say plusnet werent interested in trying to sort it and i feel like pulling the bt socket out of the wall when it happens

the noise isn't always there and im at work 830-5 so cant see what the internet is doing while im out earning pennies

bt tell me to connect my isp when i complain and then my old isp told me to contact bt

HELP lol   lol

[Sebby]

Given that you've tried a few routers, we can rule that out. Have you tried different filters? Although I think it's unlikely to be the cause, it would cause noise if the filter(s) was/were failing.

Who to contact is a weird one. If it's a broadband fault, you need to go via your ISP. If it's a voice fault, you have to go to BT directly. I'd be inclined to chase this one as a voice fault, not mentioning broadband to BT at all - if you do, they'll fob you off. Tell them you have intermittent noise and crackling.

[Chris Dutton]

see now this thing with filters,

i only have one filter in the house, this is the bt face plate adsl filter provided by bt themselves

the 2 extensions plug into the front of this (not behind) and the phones are then connected at the end of the extensions

bt engineer advised this way as the extensions are already filtered at the master socket

as soon as i contact bt they want a call out charge of £XXX if no fault is found

have been down the route of not telling them about broadband fault and they tried on 2-3 visits to charge me for no fault found visits

as i say i cant tell weather the fault is there in the day time as im at work and i cant see bt sending out an engineer at 8pm to come visit me lol

[Simon]

Hi Chris, and   

Sorry to ask the basics, but have you tried connecting to the test socket with none of the other extensions connected?  Just clutching at straws, but I was wondering if it might be a faulty phone, or socket doubler, assuming you are using one to connect the phones to the adsl filter.

[Ted]

Hi Chris
Download RouterStats and leave it running, it'll give you a record of noise on the line and also when it happens. You could check in the router logs for disconnections as well.
Can you post your line stats, i.e., Sync, Attenuation and Noise margin.

[Chris Dutton]

Hi Simon, yeah i have disconnected the face plate and straight into the test socket, the noise is still there

going to get it monitored throughout the day to see if its time depenedent as it seems to have quietened down somewhat now

Hi Ted,

Have downloaded routerstats and trying to match up the data to router, i have the linksys WAG160n and from what i can see i cant find the attenuation and noise margin figures?

can you poss shed some light on where i might find it?

[4Way]

Have you tried the quiet line test to see if it is a voice fault?

[Ted]

Chris.

Found this on the net, give it a try.

"There's an unlinked/"secret" page in the WAG160N router's web admin interface with the line stats available at this address..."

http://192.168.1.1/setup.cgi?next_file=adsl_driver.htm

[Chris Dutton]

nice one dude


--- DSL Information ---
DSL Driver Version:  AnnexA version - A2pB022g.d20e
DSL VPI/VCI:         0/38
DSL Status:          ShowtimeRetrain Reason:   0
DSL Mode:            G.DMT
DSL Channel:         INTR
DSL Upstream Rate:   448 Kbps
DSL Downstream Rate: 3872 Kbps

                      Down         up   
DSL Noise Margin:     9.3 dB       8.0 dB
DSL Attenuation:     50.0 dB      30.0 dB
DSL Transmit Power:  18.3 dBm     11.9 dBm

[Ted]

The downstream rate looks ok for that attenuation and NM, its quite a long line. The NM is probably set to 12 (should be 6 by default) because of the instability on the line and that is holding your sync down a bit.
The NM won't come down while the line is unstable. Intermittant problems are a real PITA. Apart from reporting it, which you've already done i can't really see what you can do.
Have you had IDNet look at the line at all?

Why would Linksys hide the stats page 

[rireed3]

Hi Chris.

BT have no process for investigating intermittents that I can identify.

Simon_idnet has offered the following in another long-term intermittent case:

Given the high cost of a BT Engineer visit (that we would expect to result in a "no fault found") I would hazard that the most cost-effective course of action for you would be to order a new phone line from BT and then to move your broadband service (and telephone number) to the new line.

That would work if the problem is specific to your pair and you don't have to pay big-time to have another pair run to your house.

If the problem is experienced by neighbours or you to have to pay a lot for the second line, I'd look for cable broadband.  BT are supposed to fix voice faults, but they make you prove them with their cr*ppy equipment and processes.

Richard

[Rik]

Hi Chris and welcome to the forum.

Have you tried a quiet line test (dial 17070 and select option 2). If you hear crackling then, report it to BT as a voice fault, don't mention ADSL at all. Another technique which has been known to work is to report that, intermittently, you hear other people on the line. The standard cure for that is to swap the exchange pair. One other option you might consider is to move your voice line to IDNet, they are much more effective at chasing down faults, as I discovered myself recently.

[rireed3]

Hi Rik,

I think Chris has been through all that (except IDNet voice):

now the fun bit, i have had this issue for around 2-3 years and have had many visits from bt engineers and amounting costs due to no faults being found by them, but have been able to get the costs back from bt as i can prove i am having disconnection problems

Richard

[Rik]

My brain is still in Scotland, Richard.

[Glenn]

Best drive back and get it

[Rik]

Tomorrow, perhaps.

[Simon]

My brain is still in Scotland, Richard.

Could be worse, it could be in a jar like Michael Jackson's. 

[Rik]

 

[Sebby]

The stats look okay for the attenuation, so this really does look like an intermittent fault. Given you have a filtered faceplate and have tried the test socket, it rules the filter out.

[Chris Dutton]

hi all,

thanks for the response

yeah i have the face plate, it is approx 18months - 2 years old and have just ordered another unit

have been asked to go direct into the test socket, i did this with a spare new phone lastnight and the noise was still present, for the present time the noise isnt there but think im going to buy a phone call recorder unit and try to cature the noise so i can play it back to bt engineer

great shout about the voices heard on the line, i'll keep that on standby, tried the 17070 option 2 test and as i say it was nice and quiet but see how long it lasts

the the thing that gets me most is BT, im a car mechanic and if someone has a problem with there car and i cant fix it say, then they go to another mechanic (but that wouldnt happen as im a master tech for vw so am well good  ) but if i have a problem with my bt line i have no one else but bt to go to

i hate contacting BT cause they try to make you feel like your imagining things

pity i dont know a friendly engineer i could bung a few quid too to help me out 

[Sebby]

If the noise is still present at the test socket, it's an external line issue.

[Rik]

Good luck, Chris. As I say, moving your voice line to IDNet would mean they could get involved with sorting things more completely.

Now, about this rattle when I'm driving.

[Chris Dutton]

yep agree sebby but have been asked to fit my router to the test socket

idont know how im going to do this without a filter??? my bt face plate is already a filter so not sure how???

[Rik]

Do you have no 'soap on a rope' filters, Chris? If not, PM me your address and I'll get one in the post to you.

[Chris Dutton]

do you mean this type?



yeah have one somewhere

but surely thats just the same as the face plate filter i have? or am i being think lol (remember im a car mechanic haha)

[Rik]

That's the thing. You generally need one to connect the router to, unless you have a correctly wired RJ11-BT lead.

[Chris Dutton]

have this on the bt master socket



and router rj11 cable (one that came with the router) is in the left socket and phone in the right socket

[Rik]

IDNet want to eliminate that plate being faulty, though, hence the test socket and the soap on a rope.

[Chris Dutton]

ah ok, have got a new plate on order

should be here tomoz, friday latest

[Sebby]

How about if you just plug a phone into the test socket, no router connected, do you still get noise?

[Chris Dutton]

yeah still getting the noise

know its an outside issue, just trying to get BT to sort it out 

[Sebby]

Yep, that confirms it. I think your idea of recording the noise is a good one.

[Rik]

BT will blame the recorder. 

[Sebby]

[gingerjedi]

Chris,

I have the exact same problem, if you search my posts you'll see I've asked for advice on here several times.

When you hear the crackle does it instantly disappear if you unplug the router? Also when talking on the phone I'm pretty sure the noise is only downstream as the person on the other end doesn't hear it, does this sound familier?

Like you I've had BT out a few times, changed filters, tried 3x ADSL routers etc, etc, etc all to no avail. I was told if you bother BT too much they'll deem the line unfit and I'll lose broadband altogether so I gave up trying to get it fixed.

Let me know if you ever get to the bottom of it.

[allclownsareevil]

Alright mate,

Sorry to hear you're still having problems with your line. Like I said last time I was at yours, it IS a fault with the line, not your router. (If you remember I pulled up your line values? Do you remember? Huh? Do you? Huh? Do you? )

BT don't cater for intermittent faults very well unless you're a corporate customer. Engineer visits are expensive and rarely will they stay long enough to witness an intermittent fault. Often the best bet is to be present whilst the engineer is there and insist they wait until the fault presents itself.

From your values it would look like you're getting attenuation on the line. (bleed over from another line or static perhaps) If you remember also you tend to get more signal drop outs when the weather is bad, particularly when windy. That would suggest a possible cable connection at fault or again a build up of static. Since ADSL uses different frequencies than that of the human voice comms, it's more suseptible to interference and degradation hence you usually find it's the adsl sync that fall off before anything else.

Other than having the engineer witness the fault there is little else to do. You can help yourself by following the steps I suggested last time I was there. Plug the router into the main socket, possibly disconnection any extension sockets in the property, use GOOD filters (gave you a few I think). You could either disconnect the bell wire in the socket (mostly redundant these days) provided you have a NTE5 master socket (the type with the removable lower half). The bell wires are normally orange/white and connected into terminals 3 and 4. You can disconnect those and leave the terminals 2 and 5 connected (usually blue/white, white/blue). Alternatively if you're not confident with fooling around with wiring you could buy a BT Iplate. Google it, they're around £5 from some places.

My advice though is that any of those measures will have little effect on line quality. Your line is at fault, tampering with it at destination will do little to remedy a fault at line source. Try it though .... then get the engineer out!  Make sure he witnesses the fault and distance checks it (tells engineer where a fault is likely to be in terms of distance from his test equipment). In all probability the engineer will end up going back to the exchange and connect you to a different line.

Hope this helps.

[Simon]

    Thanks for your post. 

[Glenn]

 

[Lance]

I will add the the bell/ring wire is not limited to just nte5 sockets but older ones as well. Additionally, you'll normally find the cable only in terminal 3.

[allclownsareevil]

I will add the the bell/ring wire is not limited to just nte5 sockets but older ones as well. Additionally, you'll normally find the cable only in terminal 3.

Cheers for the welcome chaps.

I only mentioned the NTE5 sockets because they're a different design to older sockets. If you rewire an older socket you are in fact rewiring BTs own cable ... which is legally their property and they can get pre-menstrual about that, so far as they have brought criminal proceedings against people in the past.

NTE5 sockets have a backplate and a frontplate. The backplate houses BTs cable, whilst the frontplate (the lower half you can unscrew) is ok for you to adapt to your own needs. Of course if you screw it up and need an engineer to visit to repair your woeful attempt at wiring then they'll still charge for the visit ... which is fair enough. Don't worry, take a photo of the wiring before you make any changes and if all goes wrong just put it back the way it was and claim you never touched it.  

Just didn't want anyone tampering with an older socket only to have an engineer visit at a later date, report it and have BT impose massive charges, or worse.

[quandam]

Entered in error

[Sebby]

[sparky]

When you hear the crackle does it instantly disappear if you unplug the router? Also when talking on the phone I'm pretty sure the noise is only downstream as the person on the other end doesn't hear it, does this sound familier?

Sounds very familiar to me!!  Have you guys on here ever got this fixed?

I had no line problems at all until about 8 weeks ago when I had dialling problems and intermittent audible sqealing noises on the line. I reported a fault, the standard BT test came back as inconclusive and it was "fixed" at the exchange 48 hrs later. Now I have developed this same problem as being reported here. This started about a week ago. Intermittent crackling noises on the line, only when the router is connected, most often, early evening and early morning, with many re-synchs of the router when it happens. I've been through all of the previously mentioned scenario's ie. router plugged directly into the master socket, nothing else connected apart from a BT Wired Phone, different splitter, but it still happens. As previously mentioned, I don't see any point in getting a BT Engineer out, because he won't sit here from 18:00 - 20:00 waiting for a crackling noise to occur, I'll just get charged for a no fault found. My guess, is that they have swapped me on to a dud pair at the exchange, but how can I prove that!?

To save on the possibility of my profile being down graded again, I am powering off the router when I am no longer using the PC. Will this theory work?

[gingerjedi]

I looked up my last post on this subject to see if a definitive answer has been found as my fault is back again tonight, so no I've never gotten to the bottom of it.

It's not a common fault but I'd imagine enough people have it for BT to be are aware of this type of scenario, they also know that their poor infrastructure isn't up to the job in places so would rather pretend it doesn't happen.

Will BT role out fibre in the future? I'm sick of being in the slow & broken lane.

[ardmhacha]

Are there any major issues with the service today? Switched on this evening and DSL light is flashing amber. Tried rebooting router and still no joy. I have checked the official website and all services are apparently OK. Also speeds here in Ireland have been very poor of late.

[Sebby]

It sounds like a local issue if you're not able to sync. Do you have a BT master socket with removable lower half?

[sparky]

If you ring 151 to get them to do a line test, does anyone know what this line test does? AND, is it the same line test that you can do yourself at bt.com/faults ?

The reason that I ask, is that I have had a crackling line this morning, so I did a line test at bt.com/faults, naturally it came back and said that the fault was likely to be in my house, BUT, the crackling has gone !

Anyone got any knowledge of what this test does?

[Rik]

None at all, I'm afraid - my line's with IDNet so when I had a similar problem, I phoned them and, within 2 hours, a BT engineer was here re-crimping the connection at the entry point.

[ardmhacha]

I'm afraid the saga continues .. Problem was referred to BT and connection restored the following morning. Got home from work that day and the connection had gone again. Contacted support and they claim it was referred back to BT, connection restored the following evening (Thursday, I think) Everything fine until this evening (Saturday) and now I've got a flashing amber dsl light again. This is getting ridiculous not to mention tedious. I have checked with several of my neighbours and none are having broadband problems (as I'm using one of theirs now) so it cant be the exchange. To be honest with slow speeds (0.85 mb downloads at peak times on adsl2 connection) and now this, I'm sorry to say I'm getting fed up with Idnet having been very happy with their service.

No broadband connection again until Tuesday at the earliest. 

[Rik]

It's not an IDNet issue if you are losing sync, that's purely BT. When you say flashing DSL, is that the line not being in sync, or are you unable to establish a PPP session. Email support@idnet.net and a 'no connection' problem will be dealt with out of hours.

[ardmhacha]

Having read another topic on the forum namely "revert back to ADSL from ADSL2+" it would seem my problems started shortly after I upgraded to adsl2. Is this a common problem? Can't believe I paid to upgrade to this "better" service. Have Idnet highlighted this a being an issue?

[ardmhacha]

It's not an IDNet issue if you are losing sync, that's purely BT. When you say flashing DSL, is that the line not being in sync, or are you unable to establish a PPP session. Email support@idnet.net and a 'no connection' problem will be dealt with out of hours.

Rik, thank you for this, I will do so immediately.

[Rik]

It's not an issue that we've seen widely reported, but if you answer my question we can begin to look at ways to help you.

[ardmhacha]

Sorry for being a bit thick but what do you mean "unable to establish a PPP session"?

[Rik]

There are two stages to making a connection. The first is for the router to synchronise with the MSAN orr DSLAM at the exchange. When this happens, the router will show a sync speed. The second stage is to establish a connection onwards to IDNet, and if this is successful, your IP address will be shown. If the first stage is failing, the router and the exchange are not connecting, the issue lays with your router, wiring, the BT wiring or the exchange equipment. If the second stage is failing, the fault could be with BT or IDNet.

[ardmhacha]

Rik,

I logged a call late last night, and the connection is up again this morning. Thanks for all your help, it is much appreciated.

[Rik]

NP.