Karma..Yes...No..Don't care?

Inactive · Feb 22, 2007, 10:32:52

OK, Adam has decided to withdraw the Karma set up without notice, following complaints from a " couple " of members, according to Max.

Adam has also stated that it could be re-introduced.

My stand on this is;

It was fairly petty that any members should have been concerned enough about, I assume losing a few Karma's, to have actually contacted the Mods in the first place.

For me, the Karma's were a giggle, a bit of fun, that is all.

What I didn't appreciate was having the system changed at the whim of a " couple " of members, and without any form of notice.

Now there is no Poll System on here, so what I am asking is for you to vote by stating;

Yes = I would like the Karma System restored.

No = I don't want the Karma restored.

Don't Care = I obviously couldn't care less.

Please just use this thread to vote on one of the three options, no explanations, feel free to start another thread if you want to discuss.

I will start the ball rolling by voting;

YES.

Lance · Feb 22, 2007, 10:34:38

YES

(why not start a proper poll inactive?)

AvengerUK · Feb 22, 2007, 10:35:32

Also:

YES

(why not start a proper poll inactive?)

Nerval · Feb 22, 2007, 10:39:42

I assume it's the New Poll button on the far right that does it?

RJM · Feb 22, 2007, 10:53:59

Yes = I would like the Karma System restored.

It is just a little bit of fun - or was.

I find it rather strange that a "moderator" has withdrawn the service without consulting members first.

Nerval · Feb 22, 2007, 11:21:44

That's another Yes from me too.
I'm owed at least three from this morning

Must say I thought the withdrawal a little precipitate.

Ray · Feb 22, 2007, 11:28:04

Another Yes here too

Philip · Feb 22, 2007, 12:41:38

it's a bit of fun, I suppose, but to me it's not that important. So I'll vote "don't care" but that sounds a bit harsh, so what I really mean is I'm not bothered either way.

I'll still come here, karma or no karma.

old Bill · Feb 22, 2007, 15:32:15

Yes. It was a bit of fun.

Inactive · Feb 22, 2007, 15:46:25

Quote from: old Bill on Feb 22, 2007, 15:32:15
Yes. It was a bit of fun.

Did you read the original post Bill? This is a form of Poll.

Yes

No

Don't Know.

old Bill · Feb 22, 2007, 15:52:33

YES.

stevelondon · Feb 22, 2007, 16:43:50

Yes

maxping · Feb 22, 2007, 19:25:41

QuoteIt was fairly petty that any members should have been concerned enough about, I assume losing a few Karma's, to have actually contacted the Mods in the first place.

As Adam has already said the system was originally meant to give users a way to show appreciation for help given by other users, some users here obviously still think this is important and some do not ,some think deducting points for no reason is a laugh and some do not.
I do not think its petty to complain to the Admins if you think the system you see as important is being abused.
I am not bothered either way but if its put back in maybe a way round would be to only allow the giving of points.

RobMc · Feb 22, 2007, 20:15:52

Karma - Don't care

being called a newbie just because I don't "play games" is a little condescending.

Rob

maxping · Feb 22, 2007, 22:02:55

Quote
being called a newbie just because I don't "play games" is a little condescending.

Better than being called a NOOB

Mr Booh · Feb 22, 2007, 22:32:59

Don't Care!

I guess if one wants to show appreciation, they can always send a Five Shilling postal Order.

Inactive · Feb 22, 2007, 23:33:35

Quote from: maxping on Feb 22, 2007, 19:25:41
As Adam has already said the system was originally meant to give users a way to show appreciation for help given by other users, some users here obviously still think this is important and some do not ,some think deducting points for no reason is a laugh and some do not.
I do not think its petty to complain to the Admins if you think the system you see as important is being abused.
I am not bothered either way but if its put back in maybe a way round would be to only allow the giving of points.

Cough... " From the OP;

" Please just use this thread to vote on one of the three options, no explanations, feel free to start another thread if you want to discuss. "..

So Max, any vote in line with the poll?

Adam · Feb 22, 2007, 23:54:42

It would be greatly appreciated if you could, in future, use the poll feature when asking for the community to vote on something. Using the poll feature makes the results much easier to see and therefore use to make a decision. On that note, I have added a poll to this thread.

As for my position on the karma system, I believe in its existing state it is not suitable as it is open to abuse. There are a few options to keep in mind when voting and perhaps to discuss; one option could be to add a limit to the amount of karma a user can give and take within a day, another option would be to require moderator approval of karma changes, but the one option I think would be best would be to require a reason for giving and taking karma from a user.

Let me know what you think.

Adam

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 00:41:07

OK, Adam as this has now turned in to a discussion thread, despite my original request, I will answer your points here.

I honestly didn't spot the " Poll " button, so apologies for that, however, it aint too difficult to count up a list of votes on a single thread.

It should be noted that not one single member has voted NO yet. ( on original format ).

Less than 24 hours ago you wrote;

However, it can easily be restored without any data loss at any time should the community decide the karma system is after all worthwhile.

You now appear to be retracting from that position?

As I said at the start, it was looked upon as a bit of fun by most members, now because a " couple " ( according to Max ) of members have thrown their teddy's in the corner, it seems that it will not be reinstated in it's usual format.

Let the " community decide " as you clearly stated, or enforced Moderation as in new stringent user options, which will simply take the fun out things IMO.

Anyway, let the Poll run and see what happens.

Members will now need to vote again in the new format.

Adam · Feb 23, 2007, 05:14:37

Just to clarify; the system as it was can be fully restored if the community decides it best. My above comments were simply suggestions for additions and changes that could ALSO be made to the system should it be restored.

Adam

Nerval · Feb 23, 2007, 08:08:25

The number of votes for each option isn't showing. Is it me or is that normal?

"Abuse" would of course be stopped by removing anonymity and requiring a comment for each karma given/removed as some other sites have - paidtoshop is one if I remember - though I don't know if that is possible on this one.

And/or just stop karma removal.

But are we not in danger of treating this trivial matter as far more important than it really is?

The main tenor of the forum is light- hearted and informal , there are few regular posters anyway who strive to keep the thing active, and I just wonder what all the fuss is about.
Didn't I read that Max had a spell of heavy karma removal, but just laughed and carried on?

And Adam refers to "if the community decides it best". I don't remember "the community" deciding to remove the karma system.
Oh well.

Adam · Feb 23, 2007, 08:32:46

I've fixed the poll, it was set to only show the results upon expiry (7 days), now anyone who votes can see the current results.

I made the decision to remove the karma system based on previous and other comments. It can be restored at any time, as I have said should the community decide. It would not have been appropriate to apply the same method to the removal of the system for various reasons and perhaps even karma abuse happening based on users votes.

Adam

stevelondon · Feb 23, 2007, 09:33:06

gawd!! whoever it was that complained ide hate to play Scrabble with

RJM · Feb 23, 2007, 09:36:36

This becoming all rather purile now.

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 09:43:17

Quote from: stevelondon on Feb 23, 2007, 09:33:06
gawd!! whoever it was that complained ide hate to play Scrabble with

Ditto Steve, the bit that really miffs me is the way that some members have gone via the PM / email? route to the Moderator/s, instead of discussing the issue on open forum.

Oh well.

RJM · Feb 23, 2007, 10:06:21

How come some people have got more "stars" than me?

Why, couldn't I have been allocated five when I joined?

Life is just so unfair.

stevelondon · Feb 23, 2007, 10:12:39

"giggles"

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 10:19:31

Quote from: RJM on Feb 23, 2007, 10:06:21
How come some people have got more "stars" than me?

Why, couldn't I have been allocated five when I joined?

Life is just so unfair.

As far as I remember, you only need to make one more post and you will have 5 stars.. as if it mattered.

Nerval · Feb 23, 2007, 10:24:32

Quote from: Inactive on Feb 23, 2007, 10:19:31
5 stars.. as if it mattered.

that's easy for you to say cos you've already got 5 stars.
Try saying that if you've only got 4

RJM · Feb 23, 2007, 10:28:35

Look, I have got them!!

Somebody must have read my story and upgraded me!

I feel happy now.

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 10:28:59

Quote from: Nerval on Feb 23, 2007, 10:24:32
that's easy for you to say cos you've already got 5 stars.
Try saying that if you've only got 4

Have a K ... drat it.

No Round the World Trip for you now Nerv..

Adam · Feb 23, 2007, 10:30:28

Lets try to keep this thread on topic if possible.

Adam

Nerval · Feb 23, 2007, 10:32:33

Quote from: RJM on Feb 23, 2007, 10:28:35
Somebody must have read my story and upgraded me!

Come clean now, you PM'd the mod and complained

Next thing, we'll all have the stars taken away in the interest of fairness and equality.
And perhaps I should have to wear gloves to stop me typing so fast.

ps I think we're being moderated now!!

RJM · Feb 23, 2007, 10:35:02

Nerval,

I couldn't possibly comment.

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 10:35:23

Quote from: Adam on Feb 23, 2007, 10:30:28
Lets try to keep this thread on topic if possible.

Adam

Being quite blunt Adam, the thread was on topic until your intervention.

Adam · Feb 23, 2007, 10:38:34

Quote from: Inactive on Feb 23, 2007, 10:35:23
Being quite blunt Adam, the thread was on topic until your intervention.

Correct me if I am indeed wrong, but I do not believe the original thread was referring to mocking of any users who complained by starting a similar mocking discussion about the amount of "stars" one has.

Adam

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 10:51:12

Quote from: Adam on Feb 23, 2007, 10:38:34
Correct me if I am indeed wrong, but I do not believe the original thread was referring to mocking of any users who complained by starting a similar mocking discussion about the amount of "stars" one has.

Adam

That isn't what I meant Adam, until your first intervention on this thread, the topic was on course, however your decision to intervene and alter the polling method, just threw the whole thread off course.

That was despite my original request to just vote on the thread, which you ignored.

Adam · Feb 23, 2007, 10:54:30

Quote from: Inactive on Feb 23, 2007, 10:51:12
That was despite my original request to just vote on the thread, which you ignored.

I do apologise I did not notice any such request. I was attempting to create a format of poll that makes the result easily viewable. If I had of noticed your request I would of started a new thread. One again, I apologise for missing it.

Adam

maxping · Feb 23, 2007, 19:49:56

Quote from: Nerval on Feb 23, 2007, 08:08:25

Didn't I read that Max had a spell of heavy karma removal, but just laughed and carried on?

I forgot about that i got nailed,the worse thing was i couldn't pay anyone back as i was not allowed to use the system

maxping · Feb 23, 2007, 19:52:47

Quote from: Inactive on Feb 23, 2007, 09:43:17
Ditto Steve, the bit that really miffs me is the way that some members have gone via the PM / email? route to the Moderator/s, instead of discussing the issue on open forum.

Oh well.

Are you surprised having read some of the comments in this thread.

I will hold my hand up and say i agreed with the users that complained about the system but i was not one of them,this is not the first time the Karma system has been discussed because of the abuse.
As i said earlier some see it as a bit of fun and some take it seriously,i think the poll shows this clearly,it would have been interesting to see the result had there only been a yes & no option.

stevelondon · Feb 23, 2007, 20:51:51

For cying out loud i can't believe the trouble because of karmas someone complains because some was taken away and caused all this palava its a karma for gods sake i for one will not be commenting on this any more i have more things to worry about i hope whoever caused this nonsense (on a usual good fun forum) and sitting back watching the sparks fly is proud of themselves. i am gonna carry on posting on other things

Thanks to Inactive for the poll.

jupiter · Feb 23, 2007, 21:00:33

How ironic that a system of karma appears to be causing so much heat.

The easiest explanation to find via Google says:
"Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done, is currently doing and will do. Karma is not about retribution, vengeance, punishment or reward, karma simply deals with what is."

So it wasn't really 'karma' at all.

For what it is worth, it seemed a bit predictable to me - people who post the most tend to get the most karmas - surprise surprise. Mostly they got slapped on for very little reason so far as one could see. And if it was a bit of fun, as some have said, how long does it stay funny for? Not half as funny as some of the jokes people post.

So, as teenager Kevin would say "What is the point?"

Inactive · Feb 23, 2007, 22:47:51

Quote from: jupiter on Feb 23, 2007, 21:00:33

For what it is worth, it seemed a bit predictable to me - people who post the most tend to get the most karmas - surprise surprise.

But, that isn't how things were panning out jupiter, and I suspect you may well have touched on the real reason for the intervention.

Some members had quite large volumes of posts, and relatively few Karma. I cannot recall which members they were though.

Anyway the real rub for me was the very fact that some members in what I thought was a warm friendly little community, would go to the extremes of contacting Mods to get things changed because they obviously thought they were being hard done by.

I also didn't appreciate the way this was handled, I think it should have been discussed openly on the forum, not by some arbitrary decision being thrust upon us without any form of notice, or even announcement.

That is my take on the situation.

mrapoc · Feb 24, 2007, 11:23:07

I couldnt care less

Although it would be better if it were like http://forum.overclock3d.net where each point would need a valid reason and would be limited to only one per day (or something)

But then again I couldnt care less

They are only numbers, right?

Adam · Feb 27, 2007, 21:22:28

First I would like to say thank you to all that voted in this poll, your feedback is much appreciated.

As for the decision we have reached regarding karma; you may well notice karma is now visible once again. There has been a change to the way it works however; the karma system now requires you to enter a reason for your action, I think this is a fair compromise after reviewing the poll results and feedback.

The system was originally removed at the speed it was for karma sniping, as I have stated before. I do hope any users involved could refrain from this in the future as karma changes will be monitored.

If you have any comments regarding this decision feel free to contact me via PM.

Adam

stevelondon · Feb 27, 2007, 21:27:06

Oh well as long as Riks happy after all it was Rik that got them suspended in the first place.

Adam · Feb 27, 2007, 21:29:34

That is not strictly true, and what matters is the community opinion.

Adam

stevelondon · Feb 27, 2007, 21:38:45

I dont particularly care Adam i won't be visiting that often anymore not after whats gone on these last few days its a shame its come to this and it all says it in your answer "Not strictly true" it was no doubt Riks decision to lock Nervals account or the better word ban and all the locked threads i wonder who was responsible for that dont tell me Rik strange how someone can cause so much trouble in 4 days anyway good luck and no offense to you Adam.

Lance · Feb 27, 2007, 23:07:38

Thanks for bringing the karma back Adam!

Inactive · Feb 27, 2007, 23:33:48

Quote from: lance on Feb 27, 2007, 23:07:38
Thanks for bringing the karma back Adam!

Surely it wasn't Adam that bought back the Karma, it was the majority YES vote.

Thanks to everyone that took part in the vote, unfortunately I am unable to see who voted which way, however you wouldn't need to be Einstein to work things out..

Anyway my thanks to Adam for putting the mechanics in to situ.

Adam · Feb 27, 2007, 23:41:13

Just for everyone's information, the votes at closing time were;

Yes - 9 (32.1%)
No - 8 (28.6%)
Don't Care - 11 (39.3%)

Adam

Inactive · Feb 27, 2007, 23:46:54

Thanks Adam, I can see that info, however as you are no doubt aware, unlike my original format, I cannot see who voted each way, no worries tho'...it is almost predicable

.. Again thanks for sorting out the Karma mechanics.

Lance · Feb 28, 2007, 08:22:02

Quote from: Inactive on Feb 27, 2007, 23:33:48
Surely it wasn't Adam that bought back the Karma, it was the majority YES vote.

As I'm sure you know really, I meant thanks to Adam for re-enabling the karma system on the forum!

AvengerUK · Feb 28, 2007, 09:05:04

Adam, its a great idea to have users justify why karma is to be given or taken - should stop any future upsets!

Nice job!

Lance · Feb 28, 2007, 09:48:30

Is it possible for the person receiving/losing a karma to also see the reason?

It may be I'm just going blind...

Rik · Feb 28, 2007, 10:30:03

Not at present, Lance.