Low Throughput.

[Rik]

Thanks for letting us know, Colin.

[mist]

I've alerted support to the thread, Mist. Please be aware that, if the BT software decides to raise margins, it's often difficult to get anything done. If IDNet successfully get the margin reduced, and the system decides to increase it again, it's almost impossible to get it reduced a second time, so do check that you've got everything filtered, that the filters are in good working order and that you don't have any flat extensions in use.

My rant will not be as bad as it may have been if I had posted immediately after speaking to support.

I was told its just the BT system, something must have happened. If I keep connected satisfactorily for 10-14 days my noise margin may drop to the default of 6db again....but there again it may not.

The fact that my line was runing at 4 meg previously appears to be of no consequence, it may be that BT have decided that was too fast for my line to cope with....

I note that I was complaining of low throughput at the start of this thread whih I started, that appears to have an official notice of explanation on the forum and therefore it may be that I  have been hit by a 'double whammy' ohh plus joining just as GW6 went pear-shaped and having to be moved onto GW5 almost immediately.

I came to IDNet from o2 Access as it was known for lack of bandwidth in the evenings and weekends once I was out of contract, with a 4meg line and 6 db default SNR. Correctly wired up by ourselves and Openreach after spending a couple of years learning by reading Kitz and DZL Zone and spending the money when needed to ensure this household got the best it could on BTIpstream with a good stable line and now this..for which it appears I should be grateful......

Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 3808 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 3000 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2821 kbps

I am not a happy IDNet customer.

[Rik]

There's not much I can say, Mist. I have a target 9db margin because my line is not stable at 6db. If I want to change that, my only option is to move (I do, in fact have two lines, and they both settle at 9db with a 57db attenuation - one profiles at 2500 one at 3000). Because of BT's profile system, quite small changes in sync speed can cause big changes in throughput - ie a 32k drop in sync can trigger a 500k drop in throughput. No ISP who uses BT's underlying services can get round this problem.

Your only solution, if the speeds are unacceptable and you cannot achieve the stability that BT require to lower the target NM is to migrate to an LLU operator, such as Be, who does not operate under profiling.

[Sebby]

Nor do they have imposed target margins.

[Lance]

The problem is that if the BT systems decide that a line has sufficiently degraded (something happening to all lines due to increased broadband take up and age of lines) then there is pratically nothing any ISP can do about it. The 14 day wait for a drop in margin will work as long as the BT system is convinced the line will be stable. Just like the disclaimer on financial products, past perormance should not be used as a guide to future performance!

[mist]

There's not much I can say, Mist. I have a target 9db margin because my line is not stable at 6db. If I want to change that, my only option is to move (I do, in fact have two lines, and they both settle at 9db with a 57db attenuation - one profiles at 2500 one at 3000). Because of BT's profile system, quite small changes in sync speed can cause big changes in throughput - ie a 32k drop in sync can trigger a 500k drop in throughput. No ISP who uses BT's underlying services can get round this problem.

Your only solution, if the speeds are unacceptable and you cannot achieve the stability that BT require to lower the target NM is to migrate to an LLU operator, such as Be, who does not operate under profiling.

Like many who migrate to small operators I am a Market 1 exchange.

Support did not reply to my emails in fact I suspect from the conversation they had not even read them.

My line had been stable with a 6db noise margin for a very long time since we undertook all work necessary to achieve this, plus openreach own equipment testing in my home using their supplied fitted socket achieved a comfortable reaction of 'this is a 4 meg line' not be grateful for your new profile of 3 megs. with an 9db snr.

I do not accept that my line had degraded so much suddenly that I had an instantaneous event on Saturday which caused this, nor it appears to the error counts show any reason.

So I have lost a whole 1 meg on my profile......

[Lance]

Of course, the error counts might now be reduced due to the higher margin. I used to have a 4500 profiled line but slowly it has been deteriating and now I only get a 3500 profile, with a noise margin of 9db.

No one has said the degraging of your line was sudden - its just that the effects of it once its over the trigger point are.

[Sebby]

I feel that BT's systems aren't particular good, though. I know of people that had higher target margins imposed by BT, yet their lines are fine at 6dB on LLU.

[Lance]

I agree completely, Sebby, but unless we can move to LLU we just have to live with the BT systems

[Rik]

As Lance says, Mist, lines degrade, systems change, noise happens. It's the nature of ADSL Max that it's rate-adaptive, it will change the parameters based on stability, not speed. BT's systems are designed to give you a stable connection, not a fast one, and no ISP can alter that.

I know your emails have been read, as I have been in contact several times with support over your problem. The latest ones haven't been replied to because you have spoken to support and they have answered them in that conversation.

I'm sorry if you can't accept that your line has degraded, mine has too, as have many others. As more people take up broadband connections, and particularly higher speed ones, the crosstalk has increased, which in turn leads to higher error counts. BT's systems see that as an issue and attempt to control it by the use of higher margins and interleaving. I have recently watched a new line train, and seen the effects of first interleaving, then the increased margin cutting in, so that I went from a sync of 4672 to 3774. You only need some crosstalk and a little corrosion at one of the many joints between you and the exchange to impact on your speed. Bear in mind that the infrastructure is designed to carry voice calls and has changed little in 100 years.

We can do nothing more to help you here. As you have been told, you need to achieve a 14 day period of stability before the system will consider lowering the noise margin. Until then, you don't have a problem, your line is working as it's designed to. None of us like that fact, but we cannot change it.

[mist]

We can do nothing more to help you here.

A very polite way indeed of saying go away and don't upset the applecart by moaning on the forum.

Goodbye.

[Rik]

No, a statement of fact, Mist. There's nothing more we can tell you. By all means moan, but we really can't add anything to what we've said, just as IDNet can't add to what they've said. We're all governed by the laws of physics & BT, and we can do nothing to change them. If I want higher speeds, I need to find a house closer to the exchange, ideally with copper rather than aluminium cables. There's nothing that IDNet can do to improve my speeds unless I do. Only when fibre is generally available do I expect to see an improvement, as it will reduce the lengths of our lines to a few hundred metres, rather than, in my case, several kilometres.

[Sebby]

This really is 100% down to BT. Not IDNet or any other ISP has control over the target margin. Frustrating, but true.

[Steve]

I have in my limited time here never seen so many comments from frustrated and upset individuals.We have issues with the performance of WBC and although we only see a small sample here of idnet customers, my impression is that it is not "fit for purpose" . The traditional adsl max product is also suffering from periods of congestion affecting the centrals. The blame for both these issues is laid squarely at the feet of BT, whether this is true or not I am not qualified to comment. I here comments of support unable or unwilling to help but idnet must accept responsibilty for this mess as they are the seller of both products. I fear it will all come to a rather messing end unless things change for the better soon. People are voting with their feet and in this internet age news travels fast. Personally with the benefit of hindsight they jumped on the WBC bandwagon too soon whilst for instance Zen have not yet released their WBC product. I sincerely hope for the sake of their customers they get things sorted soon. Me I am going on holiday soon and I hope all's well when I return.

[Rik]

As do we all, Steve.  Somewhere nice?

[bobleslie]

Me I am going on holiday soon and I hope all's well when I return.

My problems started when I got back from mine. Still enjoy yourself. 

[coreservers]

I have to say I'm one of these disgruntled customers now.
taken me over a week to get on line and my speed is dropping faster than a stone



Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
    Your DSL connection rate: 4539 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  888 kbps(UP-STREAM)
    IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2075 kbps



I'm now getting 2/3rds less than on sky connect. This aint good enough IDnet, you promise the earth and give little, Support said to me. Well add it to the list of complaints, well something has to be done very soon or I'm off

[Steve]

Not far from here in SW France, we hope to get to the top . The Pic du Canigou,a colleague and friend's ashes were laid at the peak, he died at the age of 52. I think that puts broadband issues into perspective.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Simon_idnet]

Hi Steve

It disappointing and frustrating for customers who experience problems with their upgraded lines. There may well be an element of it being a new service that is still bedding-in. We have around 500 customers now connected to ADSL2+ but we also have a list or around 20 customers with ongiong problems that we have yet to find the resolution on. We are working with a "specialist team" within BT to track down the cause of these problems for those customers. At this stage we do not know how long it will take to find the resolution for those 20 or so customers but we will not stop until we have got to the bottom of it.

Cheers
Simon

[Rik]

Not far from here in SW France, we hope to get to the top . The Pic du Canigou,a colleague and friend's ashes were laid at the peak, he died at the age of 52. I think that puts broadband issues into perspective.

It does, Steve, have a great time. 

[quandam]

A very polite way indeed of saying go away and don't upset the applecart by moaning on the forum.

Goodbye.

Having pointed you in this direction Mist, I am sorry that it has turned out for you like it has

[rireed3]

I have to say I'm one of these disgruntled customers now.
taken me over a week to get on line and my speed is dropping faster than a stone



Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test:  -provides background information.
   Your DSL connection rate: 4539 kbps(DOWN-STREAM),  888 kbps(UP-STREAM)
   IP profile for your line is - 3500 kbps
   Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2075 kbps



I'm now getting 2/3rds less than on sky connect. This aint good enough IDnet, you promise the earth and give little, Support said to me. Well add it to the list of complaints, well something has to be done very soon or I'm off

I have been watching your travails and they have been an extreme failure OF BT.

I only know by looking through two threads that your attenuation is 40db.

Previously, when you synced at 8M, you were reporting SNR margin varying between 3db and 8 (do I remember correctly?)db.

Most of us have not had such awful treatment by exchange 'engineer' idiots, but many of us have had to track down noise problems.   We have no knowledge of how your line behaved when you were on Sky Connect, so can't judge if the varying noise margin is new, representing either E-side or D-side pair change, or if it's something in your house.  SNR margin shouldn't vary by 5db on a 40db line.  You also shouldn't keep re-syncing.  Hopefully you're not working hot and exciting DLM.  Speed tests don't help much without some sort of history of syncs, SNR margin and errors.

Richard

[Wooloff]

I got this reply today from support

Hi Chris,

Sorry about the ongoing issues you are experiencing, we have put a large amount of work into getting the balance right on the network and finally today we are seeing a very nice improvement in the load on our pipes. Can you monitor the connection for me.

I really hope I am going to see things improving, I can't use Iplayer unless I download the show before hand and skyplayer is unusable as well.



I quick speed test at the moment shows  a massive improvement tonight. That's the best I have had for over a month at this time of day.

I'll keep an eye on it for the next few evenings.

[Rik]

 

I've been speaking to IDNet throughout the day, Chris, and they are watching the graphs like hawks. So far, all looks good.

[coreservers]

Sorry Rireed, I'm not trying to flame, but............ on sky connect, other than their ridiculous trafic shaping at 4pm 5.5mb to 384k! it was steady, latency wasnt great but speed was as I say a steady 5.5mb, Im using exactly the same connections, as I used then, although will be upgrading the cabling over the weekend, no point putting in new router etc. Since I got connected last Saturday, it has sat at 2mb 24 hours a day, tests at 4pm, 6pm, 11pm 5am all showing 2mb. Something aint right.

I tihnk i've been patient so far. and will continue to be so. I know support are tied with BT but I did expect a better service.