Mandy gets tough

[Rik]

In theory, yes to the first and probably no to the second.

[dujas]

is there, or should there be a time limit, on how long copyrights can be on a tune, as an example say frank sinatra, now i am fairly sure HE will not recieve any benifit from the sale of his music (as he has moved on to greener pastures )

I believe in the UK, copyright law protects music and TV broadcasts for 50 years from when first released and film for 70 years from when the creator (or last remaining creator) dies.

The main problem is that the law has nothing to cover digital 'theft' that's not for financial gain.

[axisofevil]

But if it's not for financial gain, how can it be theft?

[Rik]

Interesting question. I suppose that an illegal filesharer deprives the parties involved of income, so the theft is at that point. If I go and shoplift, but give the goods to the poor, it's still theft.

[Glenn]

Sheriff of Nottingham thought so

[Rik]

And who are we to argue?

[dujas]

The definition of theft in English law is:

"A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it".

I would guess the "appropriation" and "with the intent to permanently deprive the other of it" sections of the law need to be updated to cover the digital age, along with a reasonable punishment for when it's purely for personal use.

[gizmo71]

Interesting question. I suppose that an illegal filesharer deprives the parties involved of income, so the theft is at that point. If I go and shoplift, but give the goods to the poor, it's still theft.

It doesn't hold as an analogy though. One of the great lies in the "intellectual property" debate is that theft of data is just like theft of property - but it's not.

If you steal my car, I can't drive it. If you steal my MP3s, I can still listen to them, share them with others, and receive the kudos for producing them.

The mainstream film and music industry is only interested in one thing - profit. If anyone was interested in it as art, they would embrace whatever means they could to put their art into the hands of as many people as they could. But they aren't - they just want to get rich.

People see this and - not surprisingly - feel no ethical dilemma about 'stealing' from those they perceive as both powerful and greedy.

[Rik]

Plus, I think there is a moral issue which has always affected my thinking. Whatever work I've done in my life, much of it creative, I was paid for at the time, and that was that. The fact that record labels, artists and studios want to be paid for 50+ years after doing the work, despite being extremely well rewarded along the way, seems to me to be greedy. Factor in the way we are over-charged in the UK and I find it hard to feel great sympathy for the arguments they put forward.

[dujas]

Which is probably why we haven't seen any legal reform, instead the various companies have been left to pursue it as a civil matter.

[Rik]

Legal reform needs a clearer understanding of the issues. I can't help but feel that any legislation brought forward will be a minefield, needing to be settled, ultimately, in the European Courts.

[axisofevil]

As usual.

[john]

It doesn't hold as an analogy though. One of the great lies in the "intellectual property" debate is that theft of data is just like theft of property - but it's not.

I agree but it could be argued that you are depriving the person who creates it a reward for their efforts. However this is only true if whoever copied it would otherwise have purchased it.

If somebody bought a copyrighted print by an artist and publically displayed it and then somebody else photographed it would they be prosecuted for breach of copyright and would the original purchaser be liable to prosecution for making it available to be copied ?

[gizmo71]

If somebody bought a copyrighted print by an artist and publically displayed it and then somebody else photographed it would they be prosecuted for breach of copyright

Unlikely unless somebody was attempted to sell the photos, although wasn't there a case recently (probably ongoing) where a painting in a publicly-owned British gallery was photographed, and the photos put on the web, and the gallery was attempting to sue the photographer or web site owner (in the USA) for breach of copyright? It was all a bit odd and more than a little childish IIRC.

and would the original purchaser be liable to prosecution for making it available to be copied ?

Hmm devious. I like it.

[Rik]

This whole area is a legal minefield and will, in due course, be settled by the courts. The ethics of the copyright issue, though, deserve a public debate, imo.

[Gary]

This whole area is a legal minefield and will, in due course, be settled by the courts. The ethics of the copyright issue, though, deserve a public debate, imo.

More chance of a  I think, Rik. A public debate/referendum on any policy we would have thout the nation would have been asked about as never happened since the one for joining the EU  I can't see the stranglehold on opinion being let lose on the masses

[Rik]

Me neither, but it's needed all the same.

[talos]

The ethics of the copyright issue, though, deserve a public debate, imo.

Unfortunately not likely though Rick, you would be in effect asking the public if they want to pay or have it free, no betting on the result

[Rik]

I take you point, Bob, but it would be nice to debate how long people should be paid for work. Fifty years is a very long time to continue to receive money for something you've already earned a fortune from, imo.

[Gary]

I take you point, Bob, but it would be nice to debate how long people should be paid for work. Fifty years is a very long time to continue to receive money for something you've already earned a fortune from, imo.

Not if your one your one of those people 

[Rik]

True, and it's those people who are, effectively, forming policy.

[Gary]

True, and it's those people who are, effectively, forming policy.

Exactly , Rik. So what chance d we have of open debate  its an unfair world sometimes mostly

[Rik]

Got it in one, Gary.

[talos]

It's the ultimate dream though,  to make something once and sell it a thousand+ times.

[Rik]

For some, the dream is a reality.