awful service

[tpk]

Is it reasonable of me to expect my very slow (about 2000kbps download) to remain there atleast as it has done for many months, and not now be told by BT via IDNET that the noise margin has been doubled to 20 to "keep the line stable".

Since they did it I often can't even access web pages at all (let alone the speed now being about 800kbps) but I'm just told it's the best it can do, even though I know it was better than that for months??

I'm the customer and I know it's worse now but it seems it's ok for BT to change things and refuse to deal with me directly.  IDNET are also just saying ah never mind it must be the best the line can do.

Sorry for whinging but I find this unbelieveable and unacceptable.  They've reduced what was a shoddy service to something not worth paying for and which constantly errors out on web pages, but won't correct it.  

[Rik]

Unfortunately, BT can get away with this as there is no obligation to provide any ADSL service at all. If you push too hard, they are likely to condemn the line and you will get no service from any BT-based ISP. Do you have an LLU option available at your exchange?

Incidentally, the highest official noise margin, afaik, is 15db. If you are seeing 20db immediately after a re-sync, that may have changed, but my guess is that your line is so noisy that the margin is increasing as the noise decreases from the level it was at at the time of the re-sync.

[tpk]

Thanks Rik.  I have LLU where I live, I was with one before and will apparently have to go back.  I thought they were bad until this.  The line might not be classed as stable but I have used it at 2000/3000 kbps for a year.  Now as I've said it is 800kbps and regularly can't pull up a page at all.  It would disconnect now and then but that's better than what I've had since the SNR was put to 20db (according to my netgear).  The thing is, from my point of view using it day to day, it's worse now than before the SNR was changed.  So as a paying customer I should be able to tell them to put it back as it works better as it was for me.

There surely IS an obligation to provide ADSL once they have started doing so?  I've had much better than this for nearly a year so how can they just reduce it to next to useless over night?

The problem as far as I can see is that BT are awful and should not be allowed to make sudden changes or cause downtime to a line without notifying the bill payer.  They should either have competition at every level or be forced my government to have better customer service and standards. The least they could do is have a useful dialogue with me or the ISP.  To be honest, I would be happier if IDNET had been more up front with me if BT are indeed messing them about too.

[Rik]

Sorry to disillusion you, but there is no obligation on BT whatsoever. If their systems deem your line unstable, either through multiple re-syncs or high error counts, they will use three techniques to stabilise it, (a) switch on interleaving (there are various depths, the deeper the interleaving, the higher your ping), (b) increase the target noise margin in steps of 3db from the initial target of 6db. Each step costs you 5-700k of sync speed. The official maximum target noise margin is 15db, (c) lower your profile (throughput), this is reactive to a line event and normally recovers if the line remains stable. If it doesn't, your profile can remain low indefinitely.

It's possible for an ISP to get interleaving turned off once. If it is switched back on automatically by BT's systems, they will rarely turn it off again. Similarly, in some circumstances (though few) an ISP can get the target margin manually reduced, but any instability (multiple re-syncs or high error count) will force it back up again. BT will not then consider any further manual intervention.

If you're lucky, and are willing to risk the bill, they will send an engineer out to test your line, but if he finds it's performing in spec, or the fault lays on your side of the master socket, then you are looking at a minimum of £160+VAT, probably £200+.

Unfortunately, BT's only obligation is to provide a voice line and a data service of 28.8k, so an ISP can't push them beyond that. Lines, in general, are degrading, partly due to lack of maintenance, partly due to increased levels of ADSL takeup, and greater cross-talk.

I thought you'd had quite lengthy discourse with Brian on the subject?

[tpk]

Shouldn't they address the fact that it was usable at higher speeds (as far as I am concerned) for many months and now isn't?

Brian has told me about the line stability and also that it's stable at the now doubled SNR.  However, I'm the one paying for it and I know from use that it's worse now than it was before the SNR went up.  I am not going to say here what I think about Brian's attitude to my problems.

There's no acknowledgement of what I'm telling them regarding pages just not appearing at all a lot of the time.  The line isn't stable at the new lower speeds and higher SNR.  Actually I don't know it might be "stable", but it's not usable for the most part.  A few weeks ago, it stayed up for about 3 weeks at the better speeds and normal SNR so clearly it's possible.

My key issues with this are why has it gone up now and not months ago?  Why did I have a usable (though slow) service for months and now haven't?

[Colin Burns]

i know the feeling all to well tpk a couple of month back i went from sycing at 8mb to syncing at 3mb with rapid increase in my noise margin.  But as rik stats they are only obligated to make the line work for voice (correct me if im wrong rik) so wont generally bother to fix a noise problem if it only affects ADSL signals.

luckly for me after a couple of months of patients i got my sync back.


your problem might be if you try to change providers is that if its the line to your house that is causing the problem then changing providers probably wont fix anything

[tpk]

Cheers Colin.

I don't quite understand how BT aren't obliged to provide ADSL if it's down their lines and presumably they get money from somewhere even if indirectly as a result of me paying for an internet service?

Is it worth getting a new phone line put in?

[Glenn]

You can try, but if there is a spare 'pair' in to your house, BT may just use that

[Rik]

Shouldn't they address the fact that it was usable at higher speeds (as far as I am concerned) for many months and now isn't?

No, it's not a requirement for them, I'm afraid.

Brian has told me about the line stability and also that it's stable at the now doubled SNR.  However, I'm the one paying for it and I know from use that it's worse now than it was before the SNR went up.  I am not going to say here what I think about Brian's attitude to my problems.

Brian's giving you the facts, however unpalatable, he can't change BT's attitude I'm afraid.

There's no acknowledgement of what I'm telling them regarding pages just not appearing at all a lot of the time.  The line isn't stable at the new lower speeds and higher SNR.  Actually I don't know it might be "stable", but it's not usable for the most part.  A few weeks ago, it stayed up for about 3 weeks at the better speeds and normal SNR so clearly it's possible.

Have you checked using OpenDNS?

My key issues with this are why has it gone up now and not months ago?  Why did I have a usable (though slow) service for months and now haven't?

I woke up one morning to no service, pre-IDNet. Something had changed in my internal wiring and the line had gone out of tolerance. It required a paid BT visit to diagnose and fix.

[Lance]

Even if it was fie last week, it may now have sufficient degradation or crosstalk to cause the problems. My line used to sync at almost 5mb with a 6db noise margin but now I'm lucky to get 3.5mb on a 9db margin.

[tpk]

Rik, Brian isn't giving me the facts, the line isn't any more stable.  For example I've just had no net for an hour.  My issue there is that when you call support for a service you pay for you expect some sense of urgency, consistancy maybe and most of all, genuine concern.  I've never had that.  Also support pass me round like a hot potato.   I've done nothing wrong except be annoyed with shoddy service but I get treat pretty cynically in my opinion.  If I'd been told it straight (i.e. BT's attitude etc) from IDNET like I have been from you, I'd be less aggrieved.

I've tried OpenDNS in the past and will give it another go thanks.

What am I paying for and what can I expect?  Nothing as far as I can see.

Lance, but shouldn't someone look at the sufficient degradation?

How can there possibly be no obligation on BT to provide ADSL? Surely they sell something to IDNET?

[Sebby]

Unfortunately, BT aren't interested in the quality of their lines. You can have an engineer round, but you risk having to foot a £160+ bill if they find "no fault". That said, having no internet for an hour does not sound right, even on an unstable line. Was it the PPP that wouldn't connect or could you not sync?

OpenDNS won't do anything for stability if the problem is the line, by the way.

[Simon]

How can there possibly be no obligation on BT to provide ADSL? Surely they sell something to IDNET?

As I understand it, very basically, IDNet are receiving what's being sold to them by BT, so as as far as BT are concerned, job done.  You are paying IDNet to provide a broadband service to your line at your exchange, which IDNet are doing.  Again, job done.  Where it falls down, is the bit between your exchange, and your house, and that's the bit BT don't take much of an interest in. 

[axisofevil]

Depending on your router, there is a program (DMT) which can force sync at a lower noise margin.

[Dopamine]

Rik, Brian isn't giving me the facts, the line isn't any more stable.  For example I've just had no net for an hour.  My issue there is that when you call support for a service you pay for you expect some sense of urgency, consistancy maybe and most of all, genuine concern.  I've never had that.  Also support pass me round like a hot potato.   I've done nothing wrong except be annoyed with shoddy service but I get treat pretty cynically in my opinion.  If I'd been told it straight (i.e. BT's attitude etc) from IDNET like I have been from you, I'd be less aggrieved.

Your impression of support mirrors mine. What was once a good department has become disinterested, full of excuses and platitudes, with apparently little genuine willingness to deal with issues. It's a shame, especially as the attitude of some support staff is noticeably worse than others, with the result that it tarnishes the good work of those that do still care.

I hate having to call support nowadays, because when I do I know the instant I hear a particular voice that my call will be a waste of time and nothing will be achieved. Miriam continues to provide excellent service; it's a shame some of her colleagues so badly let her and IDNet down.

[Rik]

That's not my experience, I call support regularly on behalf of members and I know the lengths to which they go. However, I've always found that how you treat others gets reflected in how they respond to you.

[bobleslie]

The problem is that customers don't see those 'lengths'. So when there's also a lack of communication they get particularly upset.

A transparent support ticketing system would be better so that the customer can see what efforts are being made and the results. If any.

This would cut down on a lot of 'what's going on?' calls to support and avoids the 'we'll call you if there's a change' type response, especially if that call doesn't come even after the problem is fixed.

There's a lot more that I'd like to say but in my last few days I'm trying to be on my best behaviour. 

[Dangerjunkie]

Hi,

I don't know how experienced you are or how much diagnostic work you've done so I will appologise in advance if I'm reaching you how to suck eggs...

If you're having trouble like this then it does sound like a problem with your line, the phone wiring in your house, your modem or some combination of the above (since that covers just about everything it's got to be one of them )

Here are the questions I would be asking myself if I had this kind of problem:

• Which exchange are you on?
• How far is it to drive from your house to the exchange?
• When you make phone calls is your phone line noisy at all?
• Do you have any extensions or just the master socket?
• Is your modem plugged into your master socket or one of the others?
• Are your extensions wired with round, oval or flat cable?
• Do you have a filter plugged into every socket?
• Which filters do you have? (Brand? Where did you get them? How long have you had them?)
• Do you have an ADSLNation professional ADSL faceplate for your socket?
• Do you have any phone extension leads? If so, is the modem on one?
• Do you have one of the new NTE5 master sockets (where the bottom half of the front comes off)
• Have you tried taking the bottom off it and plugging your modem directly into the "test" socket behind? Did things get better?
• Do you have Sky?
• Is your Sky box plugged into the phone line?
• Can you borrow a different modem/router from someone or IDNet support and see if that is any different?
• Which Operating System are you using? (XP, Vista, 7, Mac, Linux?)
• If you're using Windows do you have up-to-date antivirus and antispyware programs? Have you run a degicated alti-malware package liek Malwarebytes to check you're not infected with something that is chewing up your internet speed?

Also it is important to remember that when you're doing tests you're interested in the "sync" speed as reported by the modem on its web interface and not "how well things work". The exchange will set a "profile" of how fast it thinks your line will go and this can take up to a week to improve once a fault is gone. Your experience won't instantly get better.

I'm happy to try to help if you need.

All the best,
Paul.

[JohnH]

I hate having to call support nowadays, because when I do I know the instant I hear a particular voice that my call will be a waste of time and nothing will be achieved. Miriam continues to provide excellent service; it's a shame some of her colleagues so badly let her and IDNet down.

As a matter of fact, I called support this morning because IDNet are handling the install of a new line and broadband enabling it and I wanted to check progress, given the vagaries of BT. I spoke to one of Miriam's colleagues and he could not have been more helpful and friendly. He made some checks and suggested that if I was at all concerned to call back later this afternoon, but assured me that everything seem to be going according to plan and indeed, so it has in the interim since I called.

I have spoken to support a few times since I joined IDNet from Zen in June and have found them to always be friendly and helpful, prepared to go the extra mile, and not just another caller to be dealt with.

I would venture to suggest that your experience is not typical.

[Lance]

whenever I've spoken to them About my own line and member's lines they've delivered the service I expect.

[tpk]

Apologies for a few posts but I've quite a few replies to make.

As I understand it, very basically, IDNet are receiving what's being sold to them by BT, so as as far as BT are concerned, job done.  You are paying IDNet to provide a broadband service to your line at your exchange, which IDNet are doing.  Again, job done.  Where it falls down, is the bit between your exchange, and your house, and that's the bit BT don't take much of an interest in. 

Simon thanks I appreciate what you are saying.  I would question what you said I'm paying IDNET for though.  I believe I'm paying for a usable broadband service.  As a customer I shouldn't need to know any more detail than that.  I pay they provide.  That basic thing is not happening and it's not being corrected.  I agree with your conclusion though, that BT don't take much of an interest.  That's key.  They don't need to.

[tpk]

Unfortunately, BT aren't interested in the quality of their lines. You can have an engineer round, but you risk having to foot a £160+ bill if they find "no fault". That said, having no internet for an hour does not sound right, even on an unstable line. Was it the PPP that wouldn't connect or could you not sync?

OpenDNS won't do anything for stability if the problem is the line, by the way.

Not sure about PPP or syncing but will try to find out.  I'm trying opendns just in case.

[tpk]

That's not my experience, I call support regularly on behalf of members and I know the lengths to which they go. However, I've always found that how you treat others gets reflected in how they respond to you.

Rik, to be honest I take that as a suggestion from you that I don't treat support the way I want them to treat me.  My response is that I certainly try to and definitely do to begin with.  I make no apologies for getting annoyed and slightly less easy to work with as a result of the situation and how I was dealt with.

[tpk]

I would venture to suggest that your experience is not typical.

In my case, this is my other problem, I agree my experience is not typical.   I think that is as a result of my problem not being so.  I suspect IDNET can't do anything about it, and BT don't care.  End result is annoyed customer and support who come across as not caring.  There should be only one outcome here.  Escalation.  There should be a solution or at least a serious attempt to address the fact that my service is awful and wasn't quite so bad for months until a change was made.  The reality is, they would rather just service the people who happen to be on a usable line and stuff the ones who aren't.  Even that wouldn't be SO bad but this problem has developed some time after I was activated, I know my line can do better.

[tpk]

Thanks Paul.

If you're having trouble like this then it does sound like a problem with your line, the phone wiring in your house, your modem or some combination of the above (since that covers just about everything it's got to be one of them )

I've been using the test socket most of the time for many months as a result of going around in support circles.  I've used various modems, cables and filters.

Does it matter which exchange I'm on?  I can't change that I'd have thought.  I gave up a long time ago of getting a decent speed based on my distance and attenuation.  I would just like something I know I can get like 2000/3000kbps down as opposed to what I have 700 down/100 up (yes one hundred kbps upload!).

I don't think my line is noisy.  BT came and said it was as clear as a bell..

I've got no extensions.

Yes I've got an ADSLNation faceplate.

I've got the new NTE5.

Yes I've got SKY but it's not plugged into the phone.

I have and have tested various PC's and OS.