awful service

[tpk]

I hate having to call support nowadays, because when I do I know the instant I hear a particular voice that my call will be a waste of time and nothing will be achieved. Miriam continues to provide excellent service; it's a shame some of her colleagues so badly let her and IDNet down.

I agree entirely with this.  I thought I might get somewhere at one point but next day I'm being dealt with by someone else and it's back to square zero.

[JohnH]

Like you, I live a long way from the exchange. Fortunately, I have a half-decent line and maybe even better after today for reasons I won't bore you with.

However, a near neighbour of mine had a more or less parallel experience to your own, where her line just deteriorated and she could not connect at all because the line would not synch. Eventually after all the standard tests had been performed, at her ISP's instigation, BT were called out to her house and several visits were made by specialist broadband engineers. Finally they decided that BT could not guarantee to provide a continuous working ADSL service, even though the neighbours on both sides were each achieving 2MB with their respective lines.

BT notified the ISP accordingly, and broadband service was withdrawn and she is now on dial up. That was 2 years ago and despite a few attempts through various ISPs, including the - on some forums - lately vaunted AAISP, BT's position remains unchanged.

You can see from this that the ISP is powerless to do anything about such a decision by BT and it has to be accepted as one of the disadvantages of living so far from the exchange.

I regret to say that I think your own situation may be headed the same way as my neighbour. 

[tpk]

I regret to say that I think your own situation may be headed the same way as my neighbour.  

Lodge.  Thanks for the info.  To be frank, I wouldn't care if my situation was going that way.  I'm more concerned with the principals of this.  It's just plain wrong and should not be happening.  BT are a joke and ISP's should not deal with them in the way they do if this is what happens.  The idea that they'd turn off ADSL on a line when the neighbours works is disgraceful.  They can do what they like, I still will say what I think about it.  I was getting ripped off by BT paying 300 hundred pound phone bills back when I had to dial direct to other users to play Doom many years ago.  I despise the effect they have on net access, the way they rip us off, and that more isn't done to improve the experience for users who have issues especially after having had a usable connection in the past.

I don't live a long way from the exchange.

[Rik]

What are your line stats, downstream attenuation and noise margin?

[tpk]

Rik, it changes but right now (with a modem which always seems to report it totally wrong).

ADSL Link     Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed    775 kbps    108 kbps
Line Attenuation    31.0 db    25.5 db
Noise Margin    15.15 db    8.0 db

I suspect the attenuation is actually about 45 with my more dependable router, this one is just a test.

[Rik]

You should be syncing at 6-8Mb with that, even allowing a couple of Mb for the high target NM, then 4Mb minimum. That says to me that your line is very noisy. If you do a quiet line test by dialling 17070 and selecting option 2, do you hear any cracking? If you do, report that as a voice fault to your telephone provider and don't mention ADSL. If not, then it's likely to be RF noise, do you have a battery-powered MW radio you could test with? If you do, de-tune it so you only have white noise and then follow the path of the phone line from where it enters the building to your router. Does the noise increase at any time?

[Dopamine]

This won't be exactly word for word accurate - I don't record my calls - but it's close. The suggestion that poor support is a result only of a bad attitude by the customer is wrong, pompous and extremely stupid. The first rule of behaviour in any professional customer focused organisation is that you understand that every customer is different and that some have a manner that might be "difficult". It should make no difference to the way an issue is dealt with. Unlike some here, who appear to be in almost daily contact with support and for whom IDNet is some sort of social hub, which consequently colours their view of the reality of IDNet's performance, others just want a reliable service and no need to ever contact support:

"Hello, I'm experiencing slow speed today and sluggish browsing. Are you aware of any problems?"
"No, everything's OK"
"Oh. Well my speed is slow and my pings and high."
"You'll need to email us details, ping tests and a speed test. Have you heard of the BT speed tester?"
"Yes, but I can tell you most of those details now"
"You'll have to email them. We deal with speed issues by email. We'll need to contact BT."

I don't remember exactly what sentence came next, but I think I asked again whether we couldn't discuss the issue by phone, and was told no.
"Thank you. That's not very helpful."

End of call.

Probably no more than 30 seconds. Not even any enquiry from support about who I might be, my number, whether I'm on 8mb or 24mb. Just a "get rid of the complaining customer as soon as possible" attitude.

I'm sure if I'd persevered I could have extended the call and maybe got the disinterested support operative to take a few more details, but I know from experience that it would have achieved nothing. My attitude was not at fault, because the call was not long enough for any "attitude" to develop. Support were disinterested. End of story.

[Rik]

Strange, I've just got off the phone from support, as there appears to be a MUX fault at Milton Keynes again (PPP down, sync not affected). I was on the line for at least 15 minutes while they tested, before going off to talk to the specialist BT team. YMMV, but I've always found them helpful. It is easier to deal with speed issues by email, and there's not much they can tell you off the cuff, they need to look at your results, the network traffic at the time and any BT issues that may be affecting things.

[tpk]

Rik, Yeah it should be much faster but I do think the router I've plugged in today to test is wrong.  I'd be happy with what I had for months, about 2500kbps so I can do basic broadband net stuff.  I thought that was bad initially but accepted that it wasn't getting any better.  This is why what's happened has irked me even more so.  It's not my intention to come on here and attack support.  I don't think I did until I was challenged on it.  They haven't been particularly bad (well nothing unexpected), just frustratingly ineffective and not very encouraging.  I considered posting originally in the rant area but I guess I am still hoping (stupidly) something might be done.

Nearly all my support has been by email.  I've only called a few times to help diagnosing problems right when they happened.

[Rik]

How about the quiet line test?

[tpk]

I've never been able to notice much on it.  I don't know if it would be obvious.  I'll try again as I haven't done one recently.  <<snip pointless BT rant>>

[tpk]

Sorry I forgot to reply to the idea of finding rf interference.  Sounds well worth checking out.  However, my master socket is right where the line comes into the house.

[Rik]

It's still worth following the line to the router in case of internal interference.

[tpk]

these are more more usual stats (since the service got worse than bad)

Connection Speed     715 kbps     987 kbps
Line Attenuation    47.0 db    26.3 db
Noise Margin    20.9 db    7.2 db

[Rik]

Is that the same router?

[tpk]

No it's my regular v4 netgear.  I think it's reporting the stats right as your 2-wire wasnt much different.

[Sebby]

There's clearly a line fault in that case. With attenuation of 47dB, you should be looking to sync at around 5.5Mb. Okay, so your target SNRM is high due to instability, but even so, you're sync is going to be much too low for the attenuation.

[tpk]

It's been like this for weeks now. It's not just slow, it often just doesn't work.  Nothing worthwhile is in my opinion being done about it either.

[Gary]

It's been like this for weeks now. It's not just slow, it often just doesn't work.  Nothing worthwhile is in my opinion being done about it either.

BT is like a mountain and like a mountain you cannot move it to get past you need to go through it, any ISP and I mean ANY can only push BT so much, they are slow, they will say you have ADSL its within minimum required guildlines as has been said, IDNET, O2, Sky, Zen can only bang their heads against this wall so much, it takes time to get them to see a fault, that simple, its not fun its not pleasant and I feel for you situation but its not IDNEt that provide Broadband as such its BT IDNet only facilitate it, its a slow process and that is simply that. Have you got by any change any p2p going on in the background right now? Just thought I'd ask. IDnet need test results again and again because BT demand them, no ISP unless providing LLU can do much more than swim though treacle in this situation, and no offence, but thats how you have to play it until some bright spark at BT goes " Yawn oh maybe there is a fault we could have a look" thats as good as it gets these days sadly. Just keep trying, but if its cable degradation you have no hope, if its your wiring you can do something about it, use cat 5 use a filtered face plate, eliminate all you can and run as many tests as possible and it will get though.....eventually, things just take time these days, in fact they always did tbh, its just the ISP's told porkys that they were fixing it, IDNet tends to say how it is, and that's not always how we like to hear it.

[Rik]

What Gary says is exactly right. BT won't accept a fault based on what IDNet and you can see, and clearly identify as a fault. First, IDNet have to persuade level one support to at least look at the case, then they have to persuade them to pass it to a fault-finding team. It takes time and persistence, but it's the only way, sadly. Of course, if you're feeling particularly frustrated as I was yesterday, when the MK node fell over again, you can email BT's CEO. I have to say he was more interested in the fact that I knew the terminology than the problem, but if enough people contact him, it might just filter down in time.

[Dangerjunkie]

Thanks Paul.

I've been using the test socket most of the time for many months as a result of going around in support circles.  I've used various modems, cables and filters.

You're welcome. It does sound like you've got most of the bases covered.

The next thing I would try is to switch off everything in the house (fridges, freezers, heating, TV...) so that your PC and modem are the only things turned on next time it gets bad. If that suddenly cures it then you know some piece of equipment in your house is faulty and is emitting noise. At least that can be identified and fixed. Do you have another PC or a laptop you could try? I've seen a power supply in a PC go noisy and wipe out ADSL once before. If you can turn your whole PC off and do the test with the modem being the only thing plugged into the mains in the house and a laptop running on battery then you'll be pretty sure it's nothing in your house.

If it is interference it does seem to be something near your house that someone is coming home and switching on.

Does it matter which exchange I'm on?  I can't change that I'd have thought.  I gave up a long time ago of getting a decent speed based on my distance and attenuation.  I would just like something I know I can get like 2000/3000kbps down as opposed to what I have 700 down/100 up (yes one hundred kbps upload!).

I just wanted to see what services were available.

I don't think my line is noisy.  BT came and said it was as clear as a bell..

There is one other option that would hopefully fix it if you have money to spend on a fix: Have a second phone line put in and the ADSL put on that. You can have the old line taken out afterwards but at least it makes sure they don't use the same cable pair back to the exchange as the first line is still in. I don't know if it's possible to transfer the phone number to the new line after pulling the old one out. That will hopefully make them replace the drop cable from the pole to your house too as I believe older drop cables don't have 2 lines in them and they will need to put in one that does. There is no guarantee you'll get a better pair than the one you have there is a reasonable chance as it did work.

Cheers,
Paul.

[Rik]

There is one other option that would hopefully fix it if you have money to spend on a fix: Have a second phone line put in and the ADSL put on that. You can have the old line taken out afterwards but at least it makes sure they don't use the same cable pair back to the exchange as the first line is still in. I don't know if it's possible to transfer the phone number to the new line after pulling the old one out.

It is, Paul, and if you have IDNet put the line in, it's cheaper than doing it through BT directly.

[tpk]

Gary, there's slow and there's no movement at all.  I don't believe this is ever going to be addressed at this rate and all IDNET have really done is ask me to do obvious tests again and again and comment about the fact that the circuit is indeed fairly rubbish.  I've had issues for months and I feel that each event is dealt with like the first, so there is no suitable escalation.  I don't get the impression IDNET are even asking BT to fix it?  If they are pursuing it with BT then I think that should've been communicated to me better.  Either way, it's a disgrace.  I'm paying for a service, what I'm getting is not worth the money, is faulty and the level of support I'm getting is not good enough, for whatever reason.  This is the be all end all of it.  I'm not saying anything can be done, but it certainly won't ever change if people accept it.  I think support should talk to me the way everyone on this thread is doing so.  Honest and to the point.  It's very annoying to be given a line.  If BT are hampering IDNET's efforts to give me what I've paid for, then they should tell me that specifically.  Then I wouldn't be here saying how bad I think they are.

A new line sounds interesting.  If IDNET do it am I tied to them?  The way things are going I might go back to LLU so I don't want to commit to any particular ISP.  Is the line just from the nearest post to my house?  If so that is very short.

Paul thanks again, I'll try turning everything off, worth a go.  Would my mains electrical supply cause interference?  The BT line comes in about a metre away from what looks like a very old supply board.

[Rik]

New lines appear to be subject to a 12-month minimum contract, though it's not absolutely clear from the website, so best to check. However, the ADSL side on the line would be subject to the normal 30-day contract.

[tpk]

I just wanted to see what services were available.

Ah sorry, I'm on the YORK exchange.  I can get LLU but not sure which to try if I ended up moving.  Already been with BE, they are looking like they actually weren't that bad compared to this.  Not that stable but a bit faster.