awful service

[Rik]

The basic facts which matter for me are I pay for something and it is not up to standard.

I hear you. Living in Milton Keynes, I suffer the blight of aluminium cables, so my speeds are, relatively, dire. However, I know that my only option is to move if I want to change things.

[tpk]

I've been reading elsewhere on the forum about A&A having difficulties with BT, so I'd imagine as you say it wouldn't be much better.

[Rik]

I don't think so. To be honest, BT are screwing ISPs and their customers and no-one can do a thing about it because BT write, and vary, the rules. Have a look on the A&A blog about the way BT changed all engineering visits to SFI ones, without any consultation. It's why I saw we need to pester our MPs if anything is going to be done.

[tpk]

Regarding having to move to get better service.  Even if you checked the broadband before hand, you'd still have no guarantee it would continue to work acceptably, so that's not a reliable option even if you were open to the idea.  My ADSL was flaky but usable until a few weeks ago.

I agree with the rest 

[Rik]

Oh, I accept that. What I'm saying is that I know that I'll get nothing better while I live here. OTOH, checking the vendor's router stats would be on my list in viewing any new property.

[Tacitus]

Even if you checked the broadband before hand, you'd still have no guarantee it would continue to work acceptably.....

Couldn't agree more.   As an exercise in applied masochism I looked through my BT Speed test logs from late 2006 onwards.  They show a gradually deteriorating line that once would regularly connect at around 2800/2900 with a 2500 profile, to one which currently connects anywhere between 1800/2150 with a profile of 1500.

What do I do?  Talk politely to my ISP - Bangalore are always polite even if they do nothing more than read the script.  Scream at BT to no avail?  All my neighbours are in more or less the same boat and, if our lines go really pear shaped we run the risk of our broadband being cut off altogether.  Go to another, non-BT supplier, in our case either Orange or TalkTalk?  Not much hope there.

Effectively we're screwed until BT decide to renew cables in the area, something which is unlikely to happen anytime soon.  Given their need to keep the pension fund afloat, another disaster largely of their own making, it's quite possible it won't be in my lifetime.

As Rik says the only option is to keep up the pressure on MPs, local councillors and anyone else you feel may be able to influence matters.  A great many ISPs are, like iDNet, in the unenviable position of being flak catchers for BT, who are the real villains.  

[Simon_idnet]

Hi Tacitus

It's quite likely that your neighbours are the cause of the problem: by creating cross-talk. When phone lines are enabled for high-speed DSL they each emit a small amount of electrical noise. The phone cables from you and your neighbours converge into a 50-core carrier cable in the duct at the end of your street/neighbourhood and are trunked back to the Exchange. Each line is creating interference for each other line and therefore dragging down the speed of each other.

This is most noticeable in high tower blocks and satellite housing estates but its effect is becoming more and more noticeable everywhere. Unfortunately it is just a side-effect of the prevalence of DSL and is subject to the laws of Physics.

Simon

[cavillas]

is subject to the laws of Physics.

Simon

It's time these laws were repealed, broken or bent...whichever is the easiest.

[Tacitus]

It's quite likely that your neighbours are the cause of the problem: by creating cross-talk......

I think it may well be one factor, although the main cause is most likely old cables through the village and bad joints.   What is really galling is that at 2.25 miles from the exchange, it should be so much better.  A 4500 profile should be perfectly feasible. 

[Rik]

With the emphasis on should, unfortunately, Tac.

[tpk]

Just a quick update on my situation:

I've been told that BT and IDNET have gone over "every inch" of my service and can't replicate the problem.  I'm told my service is perfectly stable.  I believe they could replicate the problem if they monitored it long enough, or just believed me and the info I've been sending for weeks.  Not to mention the fact that the line resyncs at truly abysmal rates quite often.

When I checked last night I could only access web pages every other 3 or 4 attempts if lucky.  My upstream had dropped to 82 kbps.  That's eighty two  

I don't see how this sudden degradation can be considered acceptable and not justify an engineer visit.  As far as I'm concerned, they sell an "as is" service and if it gets worse it's just too bad for you.  They and BT will not fix any problems such as bad lines or sudden problems between the exchange and your house.  Also, if your problem is intermittent e.g. a few times a day, forget it.. if they can find the service working at all, it's not considered a problem.

In my opinion, it's a short sighted, pathetic shoddy rip off unless you are lucky enough to be on a good line which doesn't ever have a problem.

[Rik]

If they can't replicate it, they can't fix it. I'm sure IDNet will arrange an engineer visit for you if you're prepared to pay the £160+VAT fee if he fails to find a fault.

[tpk]

How can they replicate me not being able to access web pages?  Is my word not enough given that I've been reporting problems for some time and sent the tests I've been asked for.  When I'm asked for ping and telnet info, I send it if it works, and tell them that I couldn't other times.  What more can I do? What sort of problems would IDNET and/or BT ever fix?

I don't believe they've ever tried hard enough to replicate it over a good length of time given that it is intermittent.

They haven't offered to send an engineer.  Also it was suggested I go back to the more stable Max service.  I thought that wasn't possible?

[Gary]

How can they replicate me not being able to access web pages?  Is my word not enough given that I've been reporting problems for some time and sent the tests I've been asked for.  When I'm asked for ping and telnet info, I send it if it works, and tell them that I couldn't other times.  What more can I do? What sort of problems would IDNET and/or BT ever fix?

If there was a DNS issue more people would have it, you are not just a single user with your own dns lookup facility. So if they test pages and it loads, or we do and they work, its down to other issues maybe, like your router/browser/Av software/firewall, or having a virus, the list goes on.

[tpk]

I'm sure IDNet will arrange an engineer visit for you if you're prepared to pay the £160+VAT fee if he fails to find a fault.

They are sure to not find a problem as they clearly aren't interested in fixing it (and it's intermittent).  How would I know they had done thorough checks before deciding to charge me?  If BT have already gone over every inch as I've been told, surely there is no need for an engineer?

[tpk]

If there was a DNS issue more people would have it, you are not just a single user with your own dns lookup facility. So if they test pages and it loads, or we do and they work, its down to other issues maybe, like your router/browser/Av software/firewall, or having a virus, the list goes on.

But I've already gone through all the possibilities of router/browser/software etc.  I've tried different of everything in my house.

[Rik]

How can they replicate me not being able to access web pages?  Is my word not enough given that I've been reporting problems for some time and sent the tests I've been asked for.  When I'm asked for ping and telnet info, I send it if it works, and tell them that I couldn't other times.  What more can I do? What sort of problems would IDNET and/or BT ever fix?

I don't believe they've ever tried hard enough to replicate it over a good length of time given that it is intermittent.

They haven't offered to send an engineer.  Also it was suggested I go back to the more stable Max service.  I thought that wasn't possible?

BT have been monitoring your line remotely for some time, at IDNet's insistence. BT say there is no fault, it's performing within spec. The only other thing IDNet can do is get an engineer out to you if you are prepared to accept the charge. I understand that they offered to move you back to Max by using a migration, which would enable the physical change which BT don't normally allow. However,  that would mean you would get the lower bandwidth allowance.

It's not enough to accept what you say. BT will raise a charge if they can't find a fault, so IDNet have to pass that on. If you're absolutely sure you have a fault and are prepared to accept the risk of the charge then tell IDNet and they will get an engineer out to you.

[tpk]

If they can't replicate it, they can't fix it.

I don't even think this has to be the case every time.  It is possible to fix something without replicating.  The fact is, the line is poor and you pay for a service which generally only gets worse as they aren't interested in addressing any degradation issues which appear.

[Rik]

They are sure to not find a problem as they clearly aren't interested in fixing it (and it's intermittent).  How would I know they had done thorough checks before deciding to charge me?  If BT have already gone over every inch as I've been told, surely there is no need for an engineer?

If that's the way you feel, surely you should migrate? I work closely with support, and I trust what they tell me. I know, fairly well, how the system works, and I know how hard they push issues with BT. Therefore, I have stayed put through the WBC teething troubles, because I know the issues are with BT and affecting all ISPs. However, if you have no faith in IDNet, maybe you should try an alternative ISP?

[tpk]

BT have been monitoring your line remotely for some time, at IDNet's insistence. BT say there is no fault, it's performing within spec. The only other thing IDNet can do is get an engineer out to you if you are prepared to accept the charge. I understand that they offered to move you back to Max by using a migration, which would enable the physical change which BT don't normally allow. However,  that would mean you would get the lower bandwidth allowance.

It's not enough to accept what you say. BT will raise a charge if they can't find a fault, so IDNet have to pass that on. If you're absolutely sure you have a fault and are prepared to accept the risk of the charge then tell IDNet and they will get an engineer out to you.

Rik, I appreciate your replies but I don't always agree obviously.  

If BT have been monitoring my line I would quite like to have been told that, it would be good communication from support.  It is not in spec I'm fairly sure given the upstream speed I just mentioned.  Why do you always give me more useful information about my case than support do?

[Rik]

I don't even think this has to be the case every time.  It is possible to fix something without replicating.  The fact is, the line is poor and you pay for a service which generally only gets worse as they aren't interested in addressing any degradation issues which appear.

If that's the case, you are really in a hole, because whatever BT-based ISP you move to will have the same problems, even LLU runs over that same 'last mile'. You seem to be expecting BT to replace your line, they won't do it unless they can see something wrong with it.

[tpk]

If that's the way you feel, surely you should migrate? I work closely with support, and I trust what they tell me. I know, fairly well, how the system works, and I know how hard they push issues with BT. Therefore, I have stayed put through the WBC teething troubles, because I know the issues are with BT and affecting all ISPs. However, if you have no faith in IDNet, maybe you should try an alternative ISP?

My lack of faith as expressed above is with BT.  I was talking about the engineer visit, which is presumably BT?

[Gary]

But I've already gone through all the possibilities of router/browser/software etc.  I've tried different of everything in my house.

The net is not perfect, some pages do not load, local exchange congestion etc can cause issues as can sites servers ther are a miriad of reasons, just because a page loads fine today does not mean it will tomorrow, the net is in a state of permanent flux. What do you use for you security? some software does cause issues, the latest Kaspersky 2010 has some with page loading, it could be your software and you do not realise it, do you use P2P? That can invite issues if you are not careful as well.

But as Rik said if you are sure ll is fine your end get BT to check things locally at your house, if its not your wiring/equipment and are 100% sure as you seem to be, then  go ahead and get the visit booked. But remember if you have overlooked something it will cost you.

[Rik]

If BT have been monitoring my line I would quite like to have been told that, it would be good communication from support.  It is not in spec I'm fairly sure given the upstream speed I just mentioned.  Why do you always give me more useful information about my case than support do?

I'm not party to what you have, or have not, been told, so can't really comment. I just ask for information about the status of the problem.

[Simon]

Given that it appears that you have no trust in IDNet or BT, it seems to me that LLU might be your only option.