Anyone else seeing WBC oddities today?

[Rik]

My target NM appears to have been dropped from 9db to 6db this morning, for the first time since the line trained on Max, and my sync speed has gone up to 4632, enough for a 4M profile, though currently I'm still at the 3.5 I was on prior to the re-sync. However, note the throughput speed - normally my line delivers whatever my profile allows.  

Download speedachieved during the test was - 1595 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :4632 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 760 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 3500 Kbps

It's not just the BT tester either:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Steve]

But will it hang on at 6

[Rik]

If you mean my NM, Steve, it shouldn't do. Both lines have needed a 9db margin for stability previously.

[Steve]

I think I meant your noise margin 

[Rik]

Currently 5.8. 

[drummer]

My NM has been hovering around the 2.5 mark since my last resync just over a fortnight ago.  Keep on expecting it to fall over but it's still hanging in there.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

Did you note what it was immediately after the last re-sync, Drummer?

[drummer]

Did you note what it was immediately after the last re-sync, Drummer?

Just over 6dB if I remember rightly.

[Rik]

Thanks. The oddity, for me, is that BT appear to have changed the target from 9 to 6db, without the usual 2 weeks continuous connection, but at the same time, they've dropped the speed to half. 

[esh]

If this is the 21st century wake me up in the 22nd 

On a more serious note sorry to hear about all your problems. I know the IDNet ADSL1 (ancient technology!) I have is just fine at the moment. There is some ADSL2 line up here I have in a rented place and that has massive massive outages (at peak times, like 6pm-10pm), but that's probably because it's a cr*p ISP, and I have no real numbers to compare. I'm just assuming capacity is the issue with BT right now?

[Rik]

It is, Esh. They've been making a concerted effort to resolve their 'under-dimensioning' (quaint phrase) as BT Retail are launching WBC now. However, they seem to be robbing Peter to pay Paul and just moving bandwidth around.

[Bill]

I don't understand this ADSL2+ 

I had a resync this afternoon after at least 4 weeks of continuous connection, I assume it was because the NM dropped too far. But it resync'd immediately, only marginally slower than before.

Target SNR is still 9db, and I've only once seen the actual NM drop below 6db... will an MSAN force a resync on any of the error counts? The FEC total was getting a touch high...

[Rik]

I suspect MSANs are forcing re-syncs on error counts, Bill, as my margin has never dropped anywhere below about 5db.

[Bill]

I can understand forcing a re-sync on high error rates if they are sustained for more than a few minutes, but any line will accumulate errors if you leave it long enough... trust BT to get it wrong again 

[Rik]

You can say that again. Please.

I'm still trundling along at 1700k on a 3500k profile, with a sync speed which will give me 4000k in a few days. I am not impressed with BT, it seems that every second Wednesday, they screw with my line.

[Fox]

It must be your turn on their rota Rik, seems to be Tuesdays for me (could be Wednesday that the guy waters the pot plant that is sitting on the MSAN  )

[Rik]

He's probably travelling around the country. We just need to find where he is on the other days now.

[zappaDPJ]

It's probably a coincidence but my line has been all over the place during the last 12-24 hours. It had been quite stable but now looks as though it's going to re-sync itself to oblivion like it did before. My sync rate has dropped by 2MB/s, the noise margin has increased by 3db and actually throughput is down by around 4Mb/s.

[Rik]

Maybe, but maybe not, Zap. Clearly BT are still playing around with the network. 

[onerob]

My sync rate has plummeted from 19k to 6k, with a throughput of about 1.4Mb.

[jonathancox]

I have been suffering awful peak time throughput since Monday (40db attenuation with 9db SNR margin), on a 8000k IP profile.

WBC - IMHO - just isn't robust enough yet. My line under ADSL Max gradually synced lower and lower during 2007 and 2008, I guess due to cross talk as Max takeup increased.

I've had my MAC today from James and have just signed up for Be LLU. They are claiming I will be able to sync at 11000k, which is 2000k better than I have ever had on WBC.

A shame -it's been a great 2.5 years on Idnet on the service and support side. Shame about BT!

[Rik]

I empathise, Jonathan, BT are really destroying the smaller ISPs right now. 

Let us know how you get on with Be, will you?

[jonathancox]

I will, of course. Migration scheduled for 28th.

Bit nervous about their Bulgarian call centre set up, but I've generally heard very good things about throughput/congestion and contention ratios, so hopefully it will be an improvement on BT. I won't be using their supplied Thompson router, but sticking with my Netgear kit.

It is a real shame about idnet. It must be hard on the team (and business bottom line) to constantly lose customers due to BT issues which they can do relatively little about.

[Rik]

It is, Jonathan, IDNet have built up their reputation and BT are destroying it with impunity. 

[esh]

If things carry on like this it sounds like we'll all be back on ISDN 

You're really not making me feel deprived of missing a "21CN" exchange...

[Rik]

Quite right, Esh. I was always a bit wary of making the move to WBC, and though it has been better than Max for me at times, I do get a strong feeling that BT haven't really got a grip on things yet, so the downside is that it's often been a lot worse than Max.

OTOH, BT did something similar when launching Max. Perhaps the moral is not to be in a rush to move to a new service?

[jonathancox]

I don't recall as much pain with Max as when WBC was introduced (June for me). I initially synced at 7.9meg on Max, but that gradually fell to 5.5meg over 2 years with NO kit/wiring/internal changes as more and more people came to Max.

I'm lucky to have plenty of LLU and other options at my exchange. I've not gone for Virgin cable - too many horror stories from neighbours

Maybe we should all move somewhere with a proper 21C network. My cousin lives in Tokyo, for example....she has proper fast internet!

[Rik]

I don't like fish enough.

[Rik]

I got my 4M profile today, and BT gave me my speed back to go with it:



The BT tester, though, appears to be broken. 

[Sebby]

Not broken, just resting as it's Saturday.

[Rik]

 

It was 'resting' yesterday too.

[Sebby]

I can't think of an excuse for that!

[Rik]

 

I reckon BT are upgrading it against the rush of tests they are expecting.

[Sebby]

That must be it.

[Rik]

If the BT Retail WBC launch goes ahead next week, the tester is probably going to get swamped.

[Lance]

But then again, are people on BT retail that bothered about the speed they get?!

[Rik]

They will be when they start paying for a faster service, Lance.

[coreservers]

Mines re-synced yesterday for the 1st time in 270 hours.
Stayed at 6.8mb (yes finally getting stablility), ..... but the upload has dropped from .92 to .46. not sure if the two can be linked

[Rik]

With the BT tester broken, you can't check your profile. They may be, or you may be being hit by what happened to me earlier in the week, throughput at half profile. BT have recognised they mis-configured the network and are frantically trying to correct it before BT Retail launches WBC this coming week.

[Lance]

That would be right. Openreach fixing it in a hurry because another BT group company is going to be using it. So much for the independence openreach is supposed to have!

[LAD]

Hi all,

After IDNet kindly chased BT to lower my SNR to 6dB last Thursday I was happily experiencing broadband at a speed back up to something like half decent (5.3Mb) as my ADSL2+ connection has been poor ever since I switched over and has always been slower than my ADSL Max connection.

Having returned home from a weekend away however I now find my connection is back down to 2.8Mb again and the SNR is back up to 15.5 dB !!

Could this BT 'work' for WBC be messing with my line?  It's certainly messing with my head!!!

Cheers,

jim

[Rik]

Did you leave your router connected while you were away, Jim, if so, was anything showing in the log? Oddly, I have the opposite problem, I went away, shut down, and have powered back up at a speed which will lift my profile a further 500k, but pings are 4ms slower. I really don't know what BT are doing right now. 

[LAD]

Did you leave your router connected while you were away, Jim, if so, was anything showing in the log? Oddly, I have the opposite problem, I went away, shut down, and have powered back up at a speed which will lift my profile a further 500k, but pings are 4ms slower. I really don't know what BT are doing right now. 

Yep, left the router on.. not touched it since IDNet had BT reset the default SNR just in case I did anything to make it worse!

Turned the computer on this morning, couldn't browser and email wasn't collecting.  Logged into the router which said there was a connection up running at 2976 kbps so restarted the router and that is how it has been ever since.

Not sure about the logs, I've had a look in the logs page (DG834Gv4) router and can't see anything other than a long list of DOS attempts.

[Rik]

My best advice is always disconnect the router from the power, and then from the phone line, when you're away. That way, power blips & cuts or thunderstorms don't cause you any problems. Disconnecting in this way will not affect your profile, target margin etc.

The Netgear, depending on firmware, doesn't log losses of sync, so my best guess is that the router was unstable, DLM has cut in, and your target NM has been increased to 15db once more.

[LAD]

Hi Rik

Thanks, good advice there.

I was thinking exactly the same, even though I had no bad experience with browsing etc when my connection was 1st amended.

Why it has gone so low this time though I don't know.

Really quite fed up of this ADSL2+ 'solution'

[Rik]

It is a bit 'fragile' atm, isn't it. My line has been really weird over the past week, first dropping the target NM to 6db, now 3db - no way should it be that low. I get the impression that someone at BT is just punching keys to see what they do. 

[LAD]

Very much so.  Not that it's likely to make much difference but I picked up a 2wire router on ebay last week for a tenner which arrived today so will get that rigged up to see if it makes any odds.

I've only had the v4 a couple of weeks because my v2 finally went pop.  On the v2 my attenuation was 47dB and with the v4 it's now 50dB so I know I'm not going to be squeezing much more out of the line, even on a good day!

One thing I have been thinking is that I live in a flat that used to have the intercom to the building wired up via the phone lines.  The intercom doesn't work that way anymore but I wonder if some bodged wiring trick might be adding noise to the line.  Hmm...

Yes, BT... you get that impression don't you!

They are clueless at the best of times. 

[Simon]

Belated    Lad, and 

[LAD]

Cheer Simon 

[LAD]

Hmm... well I got the 2wire configured and have just been having a nosey around the settings etc to see what can be done and what I can tell from the router logs etc.

Seems my line is quite noisy to say the least.  (This is with the router plugged into the test connector behind the faceplate!)





General Information
DSL Line (Wire Pair):    Line 1 (inner pair)
Downstream Rate Cap:    3072 kbps
Downstream Atten. at 300kHz:    46.4 dB
Uncancelled Echo:    18.2 dB    Suspicious - check phone filters and alarm
VCXO Frequency Offset:    7.9 ppm    Ok
Final Rx Gain:    27.5 dB    Ok
Impulse Noise Comp. Tones:    0    Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise:    0    Ok
Impulse noise protection:    4.00
Delay of latency path:    8.00 ms
Training History
   Downstream       Upstream
Time    Line       Rate    Max1    Max2    Max3    Mgn1    Mgn2    Attn    Pwr    CRCs    FECs    INP    DLY       Rate    Max    Mgn    Attn    Pwr    CRCs    FECs       Mode    Vendor    State    Exit Code    Echo    VCXO    Rx Gain    INC Tones
2009/09/21 20:31:53 BST    1       0    0    0    0    0.0    0.0    52.1    0.0    0    0    0.00    0.00       0    0    0.0    31.4    0.0    0    0       G.DMT2+ Annex A    Infineon    223/93    ERR_INCONSISTENT_SIGNAL    18.2    7.2    27.5    0
2009/09/21 21:00:45 BST    1       3059    5385    5561    5561    14.4    14.2    48.9    18.8    3    4468    4.00    8.00       696    724    6.5    31.4    3.4    2    13       G.DMT2 Annex A    Infineon    236/104    N/A    18.2    7.9    27.5    0

[Sebby]

Yep, that does seem to suggest surges of noise. Are you able to try the test socket?

[Rik]

A belated welcome, I was so busy concentrating on the problem I didn't notice. 

Uncancelled Echo:    18.2 dB    Suspicious - check phone filters and alarm

ERR_INCONSISTENT_SIGNAL

Your thoughts about the intercom may well be right.

[Ray]

  LAD.

[Gary]

  LAD

[LAD]

Thanks guys!

They are the results via the test socket!! V poor isn't it. 

Speed down to 2272kbps so getting worse by the hour too.

Out of interest, where is the easiest place to find the noise margin on the 2700 ?  There's plenty more info on the 2700's pages than the netgear's so am a little lost!

[Rik]

http://192.168.1.254/xslt?PAGE=B02&THISPAGE=B01&NEXTPAGE=B02 should do it for you, no login required.

[LAD]

Just thought I'd quickly follow up on recent events and also ask a quick question.

I logged another support request with IDNet who have been great in pulling strings or whatever they have to do to rattle BT into action.

I switched back to my Netgear router and set up Routerstats and IDNet "requested BT apply further stability to the circuit and also drop the margin again".

That was yesterday and since then and up to now my sync is flying at 5851 and my NM is 6.3 dB. 

However, this is pretty much what happened last week before it bombed whilst I was away so this time I've set up RouterStats to monitor my router logs.  Looking at the basics is no problem. I know understand most of that.  It's the things RouterStats via telnet reports elsewhere that I know nothing about. i.e. SF/HEC/Reed Solomon/CRC/LOS/LOF/ES etc etc....

Does anyone know of a link to a page that explains these things?  I've had a quick look via google, had a nosey on a few forums including the routerstats forum and haven't seen anything as such that is a quick glossary type of thing just lots of posting of these stats where they have been posted in full.

I'd obviously like to monitor certain events and logs so I can use that as feedback to assist in whatever diagnosis might take place if the connection falls onto its behind again.

Cheers.

[Steve]

Any use? http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm and the previous page as well

[LAD]

Fantastic!!!

Cheers Steve 

[Steve]

NP