ADSL2+

[Baz]

am thinking of upgrading to this since my exchange is enabled, got the e amil from IDNet, whats it like for any one who uses it. good/bad, any problems.

is there a training period if you upgrade

[Steve]

If I had the opportunity now I think I would say no but that's easy for me on a full sync and an exchange that not due to be upgraded til 03/10. Why? I still thinks a lottery as to whether you'll be any better off or worse at the present time.

[Simon]

I think it depands on a lot of factors, Baz, and it benefits some more than others, but things to seem to be settling down now, after a shaky start.  There's too many threads on here to list, but you might want to start with this one, then browse the IDNet Help boards for more.  I haven't taken the step myself yet, but I expect others who have will soon be along to comment.

[Sebby]

Simon has put it very well. I think it's still a risk, and a lot depends on how good your line is. If you have a good Max service, I'd be inclined to hold off.

[Baz]

good points there  thanks. still early days then?

[dujas]

Well once again we're pushing closer to the limits of BT's local loop infrastructure, so expect signs of instability to increase. But really it depends upon your telephone line length, >3.5Km and the speeds gains start to become marginal over ADSL1.

Having said that, I would switch without hesitation if available. Some ISPs may pass on a price cut for 21CN customers in January 2010.

[butlersoft]

I think I must be near the end of the line from the Exchange ....

My upgrade was completed yesterday but I'm still just about getting 2MBit down / 756kbps up ....

[Sebby]

Could you post the stats from your router?

[Ray]

 

[quandam]

Baz

Maybe this thread will throw more light on your query? http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=15238.0

[Baz]

thanks I have been looking at that thread lately 

[glen]

I think it's slowly improving. I went over to wbc as soon as it started, but my experience was terrible, so went back to max after 2 weeks of slow speeds, and the rest of it. I went back over to wbc a few weeks ago and there has been a big improvement with stability, speed, as in throughput, and it's definitely stabilized but thats my own experience of it. The adsl routers that would not work under adsl2+ now work again so something is improving.

[JD_LincsUK]

I was also on the WBC platform as soon as my exchange was upgraded (Feb 2009) and, even on adsl max - it increased my speed nearly fourfold - from less than 1MB to 4MB IP profile and a good 3.8meg speed on the tests.

This did get lowered to 3MB due to upload errors, which I didn't really care about - I didn't notice any problems on 4MB/s and would gladly have stayed there.

When I switched to adsl2+ I didn't notice any difference, but my IP profile never went above 3500. I think that had more to do with Entanet than anything else - but after a brief period on standard adsl max, which allowed me to see the real and large benefits of being on WBC - I am now back on adsl2+ and a good, steady 3000kbps.

I do have some bad issues - but they are entirely due to Entanet (apparently over-subscribing and a nuts ALT system).

So I'd say, definitely go for WBC, but if you have the chance to go adsl or adsl2+ on it, adsl may be faster (though maybe not more stable).

You also have more control over your line config on adsl2+ than on standard '20CN' adsl (i.e. not dependant on BT finally getting their behinds in gear).

That's my experience - hope it helps.  

JD

[Noreen]

I'm on ADSL 2+.

On 1 Nov I got this BT Speed Test .......
Download speed achieved during the test was - 91 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1000-99999 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :15046 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 650 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbps

After a router reboot on 2 Nov I got this....
Download speed achieved during the test was - 12220 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 1000-99999 Kbps.Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :17132 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1059 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 13000 Kbp

Yesterday afternoon and evening I couldn't connect to the internet at all although all lights on the router were on and it said that I was connected. I rebooted the router to no effect. I was ready to ring Support but thought that I'd try one more reboot this morning and it connected. Just tried the BT Speed Test and got the attached result. Just hope that it stays like this but ADSL 2+ seems to be a switchback.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

BT appear to be juggling their bandwidth around, Noreen.

[drummer]

It's all a bit bonkers really.

Test from about 30 minutes ago:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 14135 Kbps (Lower than Noreen but normal for me)
<Snip>
Your DSL Connection Rate :18085 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1151 Kbps(UP-STREAM) (Higher than Noreen but normal for me)
IP Profile for your line is - 15000 Kbps  (Higher than Noreen but normal for me)

I'm certainly not complaining about my speed or throughput, but the BT profiling system makes no sense to me.

Or maybe I'm missing something.

[Rik]

Your profile is correct, Drummer, you fall just short of the 16M profile. The throughput looks good for the profile.

[psp83]

Just logged into idnet website and noticed the date has changed for me.

ADSL2+ Availability: 01/12/09 to 31/12/09

It was march next year.

What are the pings like on a none interleaved line? I might change over but it all depends how stable ADSL2+ is since i need my connection for my work.

[Rik]

I find pings a bit slower than on Max, but that may be to do with the stabilisation that gives me an extra 1.5M. At best, they have been the same as Max.

[wiltshirejohn]

I'm quite happy with the speeds I'm getting on MAX (see below) but I keep bumping the bandwidth limit.

Is it possible to switch to ADSL2+ to take advantage of the higher allowance. I'm not sure if my exchange has been upgraded yet, which leads to...

Second question: One of the speed test sites (or was it a line survey site?) showed my exchange status wrt ADSL2+ but I cannot remember which one. Any clues would be much appreciated.

Regards - wiltshirejohn

[Rik]

Samknows is the best bet, John.

[wiltshirejohn]

Thanks Rik - that's the one I was thinking of.

Samknows says "21CN PSTN switchover target:  Q4 2009."

So I guess I'll just have to wait.

In his opening post of this thread Baz said that he got an email from IDnet. Is that the normal process ?

Regards - wiltshirejohn  (carefully watching the broadband meter!!)

[psp83]

Sam knows still says March 2010 for me but IDnet site says Dec 2009.

[wiltshirejohn]

The IDnet site gives my ADSL2+ availability as  "                 ".

Yup, that's right - nothing!   

Regards - wiltshirejohn

[Rik]

Give them a ring, John.

[Sebby]

The IDnet site gives my ADSL2+ availability as  "                 ".

Yup, that's right - nothing!   

Regards - wiltshirejohn

That just means your exchange is never getting it.

[Rik]

 

Or at least, not till they've given me fibre to the cabinet. 

[wiltshirejohn]

Looks like Sebby is right (Oh bu**er!)

I just had an email reply from IDnet:-

Currently, BT are reporting it is not planned to upgrade the exchange to
ADSL2+ at this stage. It is likely this may change over the coming weeks
and months.

Regards - wiltshirejohn  (not holding his breath!)

     just muttering - the only repeatable bits are BT¬!£$$%%^BT&%^"BT

[Sebby]

[Rik]

We agree.

[B52]

Well I regret ever changing to ADSL 2+. 
A month ago I requested the upgrade and was told as I was some distance from the exchange I may not get an increase in speed but speeds wouldnt be worse and I should take advantage of the extra bandwidth.  Its been a real disaster. Pre change the speed was 2.5-3.5Mbs.   Post change, withing a couple of days I was getting upto 4.5 Mbs and since then its been downhill all the way.  Im now, today on 660kbps and on some occasions its as low as 400kbs i.e. below BTs acceptable speed. I let it go for a couple of weeks to settle down before contacting support.

Support havent been much help at all.  Just the usual platitudes.
Move the connection to the faceplate socket.  (dont have one) Old type BT socket. 
All extensions disconnected.
Reboot router.
Router keeps disconnectingfrom the exchange.  Why?  It didnt do it before.
Try updating the firmware. There isnt any.
Router is a Buffalo WBMG54 (Wireless) ADSL2+.  Has worked fine for 2 years and on the upgrade worked ok initially at upto 4.5 so I cant see it being the problem.

Im sure its a BT problem,  what do I do now?.

Ive got Virgin cable upto the front of my house but I dont want to move my BB and phone to them but I may just have to if things dont improve.

Do I waste £50 on trying a netgear router.  BTW Ive another router(Edimax adsl 2+)  that wont even sync with the exchange now.  Again, it was ok before the upgrade.

Anyone any thoughts.

Thanks
Ian

[Rik]

Hi Ian

The first thing to say is that some routers don't work well with some MSANs (Huawei), so there's a possibility that's part of the problem. Netgears are 'known safe' there's been no problems with them yet.

Second thing is that BT hopelessly miscalculated the amount of bandwidth they needed, and have been scrambling to catch up ever since, there's major engineering works taking place over the next two weeks which should help. 

The router disconnections will be because of an incompatible MSAN or because the higher frequencies used for ADSL2+ are producing instability.

My story is rather the opposite, having started high, dropped while BT's bandwidth issues were at their worst, but having gone back to a steady 4M, 1.5M more than I got on Max, so it does work, but it's still being tweaked.

[B52]

Sorry.  Router is Buffalo  WBMR-G54

[Glenn]

Have another word with support, see if they will let you borrow a router to see if it improves the line.

[Rik]

Don't know it personally. Does it give a code or name for the MSAN it's connected to?

[B52]

Eh!  Whats a MSAN (Huawei).

It might as well be in Chinese for me.

[Rik]

It is. BT, in their wisdom, bought a lot of MSANs from the Chinese company Huawei (pronounced who are we). The MSAN replaces the DSLAM in ADSL2+ and I cannot remember for the life of me the meaning of the acronym.

[B52]

Router showing these. 


Downstream Upstream Unit
SNR Margin 14 18 dB
Line Attenuation 47 28 dB
Data Rate 3069 445 kbps

[Glenn]

It is. BT, in their wisdom, bought a lot of MSANs from the Chinese company Huawei (pronounced who are we). The MSAN replaces the DSLAM in ADSL2+ and I cannot remember for the life of me the meaning of the acronym.

multiservice access node

[B52]

I might have one of those under my arm, or is it in my groin?

[Rik]

Thanks, Glenn. One day I'll remember, honest.

[Glenn]

No need to remember, Wiki is your friend

[Rik]

If only I could remember that.

[Sebby]

[Simon]

multiservice access node

Yes, that's it.  I knew that.   

[B52]

Ive decided to order the Netgear equipment. DGB111G with free USB adapter for £50 from Aria. Should be here tomorrow.

This mornings BT Test at 0905hrs

Configured d/l is 2500kbps
D/L speed for test  1960kbps
Acceptable speed for this connection 600-7500kbps  (If only)
DSL connection rate 3069 d/s.  445 u/s
IP Profile 2500kbps.

On some occasions my upload is quicker than download. That cant be right, surely.

[Rik]

It does happen with congested VPs. Your speed, even now, looks low for the profile. Can you run a tracert to www.idnet.net?

[B52]

Now it might as well be Chinese.

How do I do that?


Ta.

[Rik]

Assuming Windows, Start > Run > CMD and hit Enter. In the DOS-like window which opens, type tracert www.idnet.net, then right click the title bar, select Edit > Select all > Copy. Paste the results in a message.

[B52]

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.

C:\Users\Ian>
C:\Users\Ian>tracert www.idnet.net

Tracing route to www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1     3 ms     1 ms     3 ms  mygateway1.ar7 [192.168.11.1]
  2    32 ms    31 ms    32 ms  telehouse-gw4-lo2.idnet.net [212.69.63.99]
  3    32 ms    32 ms    48 ms  telehouse-gw3-g0-1-400.idnet.net [212.69.63.243]

  4    32 ms    33 ms    34 ms  redbus-gw2-g0-1-331.idnet.net [212.69.63.5]
  5    33 ms    35 ms    33 ms  redbus-gw1-fa2-0-300.idnet.net [212.69.63.225]
  6    32 ms    33 ms    32 ms  www.idnet.net [212.69.36.10]

Trace complete.

C:\Users\Ian>

[Rik]

That looks fine, you're on the hostlink as far as I can see, so let support have that BT test to investigate.

[B52]

Well, an update.

Things just get worse. New Netgear and filter. Configured speed is now down to 1750 and d/l 1625k.  Lower than with the Buffalo router and half what I had before 2+

Sent Tracert, router stats, etc to support.  Seems my line is cr@p.

Think I might try putting the Buffalo router back. If no improvement, support suggested it might be possible to undo my move to ADSL2+.

If that gets it back to how it was pre-changeover, I'll be happy. Otherwise I'll be on the Virgin train.

[Supanova]

If Be unlimited/O2 has unbundled your exchange i'd recommend them very highly as a very happy customer for 2 years. The customer service is free and great although there is a waiting time of about 5 minutes to get through and it's £9.79 a month for 20meg (!!!). Their ADSL2 service is great...just avoid the access packages like the plague. IDnet is great if nobody has done over your exchange, but it's certainly not worth the money if you have the opportunity to migrate to ADSL2 LLU in my humble opinion.

Virgin are so unbelievable it makes my angry. Utterly incompetent morons that don't give a damn about providing internet. I'm so furious right now thinking about them.

Just my 2 cents based on my past experience.

[B52]

So clue me up on LLU. How would that be any better on my line than ADSL2+. The signals still have to travel down the same line from the exchange, dont they? 

Im in a Virgin cable area so I wouldnt suffer from the same line problems. Cables were installed about 20 years ago by Nynex to our gate. Virgin are now offering free installation and router with phone and internet for a lot less than Im paying for the same from IDNet.
I'll talk to some of my neighbours that I know are on cable and see what speeds they are getting and if there are any problems, before I think about jumping ship.

[Sebby]

They do, but it seems that LLU equipment seems to handle lines better in some cases, somehow.

[Supanova]

So clue me up on LLU. How would that be any better on my line than ADSL2+. The signals still have to travel down the same line from the exchange, dont they?  

Im in a Virgin cable area so I wouldnt suffer from the same line problems. Cables were installed about 20 years ago by Nynex to our gate. Virgin are now offering free installation and router with phone and internet for a lot less than Im paying for the same from IDNet.
I'll talk to some of my neighbours that I know are on cable and see what speeds they are getting and if there are any problems, before I think about jumping ship.

If you are with IDnet then they rely on BT's exchange equipment to provide you with internet, hence the suckyness. Provides who can afford it fit their own equipment into the exchange to handle their customers and nobody elses. The equipment they put in is far better than anything BT have yet to come up with it seems.

I am also in a Virgin cable area, yet they have decided that 1000mbit/sec is sufficient for a large village/small town on the outskirts of Birmingham in an area with high population density and young people. Cable internet shares that lump of bandwidth with all the consumers, so if someone is taking a bigger share than they should - tough luck matey for everyone else.

At peak times the internet was almost completely unusable - I couldn't even communicate on skype because it would break up so much. The situation is now worse because Virgin are allowing people in the area to get 50mbit packages with massive download allowances which hog the bandwidth and ruin everyones experience. The problem with cable is that you share your bandwidth with your fellow neighbours, so your connection is much more sensitive to the downloading gits (and gitettes) down the road. With ADSL, your connection to the exchange is yours and yours alone right up to the LLU. It takes far more for downloaders to affect your connection, and ISP's are able to throttle them before they become a problem.

If you are in a nice quiet area full of old dear's that have no idea what the internet is for, Virgin cable will be just fine if you don't draw the sucker straw. If you are in an area where you think people are likely to be downloading a lot (young people area) then I would advise you to avoid cable.

[B52]

I live in a Close of 14 houses and I can see the street cabinet from my house about 50mtrs away. Does the split occur there or in some other place.

I'll have a look who is available LLUwise on my exchange.

[B52]

Just checked my number on the BE site. Offering speeds upto 2.4meg. Its hardly worth it.

Exchange also LLUed with Tiscali, AOL, Talktalk, Orange,Sky/Easynet.

I'll temporarily try disconnecting all the internal phone wiring apart from at the main socket over the weekend and see if that has any effect.  I keep getting told to use the socket behind the BTsocket faceplate, but  I dont have one. We just have a plain box type socket 2" square where the wire comes in from the outside. Its been there since before we moved into the house over 30 years ago. Taking off the front just exposes 6 terminals and nothing else.

Cheers

[Ann]

The LLU split happens at the exchange so the line to the exchange is the same.  I have a problem with that when it rains it cuts out but nothing I can do about that.  From the exchange the choice is BT or LLU.  If you choose LLU choose wisely.  All LLUs are not the same.  if you've got BE they're good, the rest I wouldn't use.

When I checked my speed on the BE site it said 3.5.. I actually get the full 8mb sync and a speed of 7mb.

[B52]

Sorry, didnt make it clear.  The cabinet I can see is the cable cabinet, not BT. It was that I was refering to re the splitting.  Ive no idea where the 'cable exchange' is located, or even if there is such a thing.

From searching the various suppliers sites, LLU would make very little difference to my speed.

[Rik]

The LLU suppliers equipment is housed in the BT exchange.

[B52]

"The LLU suppliers equipment is housed in the BT exchange."

Yes, I realise that. I was responding to Supanovas post about CABLE. Where are the 'exchanges', if thats what they are, that distribute the cable signals and does the 'lump' as he describes it, travel to the street cabinet for splitting or is it already split when it gets there?
The answer to that would have a bearing on my decision whether to go for cable. If its split at the street cabinet I wouldnt be sharing with many people at all.

[Rik]

Sorry, misread you.  TBH, I don't know whether that's where the segments are split, or whether it's just where the fibre changes to copper.

[B52]

 
These are 2sets of stats for my line before and after removing all extensions from the main line box.(sorry they're not in the same format)
I dont understand the significance of these and would be grateful of an explanation.  Is it worthwhile leaving the extensions disconnected or will it make little difference to my speed etc?   Thanks


Before
ADSL Link
Downstream
Upstream
   
Connection Speed
2268 kbps
440 kbps

Line Attenuation
52.0 db
27.7 db

Noise Margin
7.0 db
19.2 db


After
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2268 kbps 440 kbps
Line Attenuation 48.5 db 27.4 db
Noise Margin 14.1 db 22.3 db

[Rik]

It's removed 3.5db from you d/s attenuation but your noise margin has shot up. The two are conflicting, were there a lot of resyncs during the process?

[B52]

Not that Im aware of.
Connected immediately and has stayed there.
Through all this Ive never had any drop off of connections. The line has been very stable.  When it was first changed over it had a config of 4000k and worked fine for me so I cant understand why it was downgraded in stages to what is now 1750.

[Rik]

Check the error count in your router.

[B52]

Just changed the DSL Mode from Auto to ADSL2+ on the Netgear and its changed the stats to these below:-

ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2268 kbps 440 kbps
Line Attenuation 51.5 db 27.4 db
Noise Margin 6.4 db 21.9 db

Should I change it back to auto?  This stuff does my head in.

Where will I find the error count?

Thanks

[Rik]

Not sure where the error count is on Netgears, try the stats page.

There's something very odd going on with your connection, noise margin is down (or you have a lot of noise at present), attenuation is pretty much back to where it was, but you're still connecting at the same sync speed, with a very low u/stream rate. I think you need to talk to support.

[B52]

Off out now for a couple of hours. Will speak to the this pm.

Thanks

[B52]

An update after a month of disappointment then elation,

ADSL+  trial for me was very disappointing. Getting much lower speeds than before on ADSL. Some as low as dialup speeds.  Eventually after discussions with support
I decided to ask to revert back to bog standard ADSL about 2 weeks ago.
Profile then went up to 3000k after 2 days dropped to 2500k and stayed like that for about a week which was still an improvement on ADSL+ for me.  Then a couple of days before Christmas it went up to 4000k and yesterday increased to 5000k.  On various speedtests including BT Im actually getting 5000k download speeds.
Brilliant. Ive never had anything likethose speeds even before the change to ADSL+. Since moving back to the 'ordinary' connection my speeds are double what I was getting a few months ago.
Im left wondering whether I should have queried my speeds earlier but I was happy that I had a reliable connection that never went down at 2000k.

[Rik]

Possibly the move to an MSAN did something to improve your connection? 

[willgoat]

Woot! My speed is great tonite!

[Rik]

Ah shaddup. 

[B52]

Willgoat.

One small consolation to me is that my uploads are better than yours.   0.75Mb/sec

[Rik]

 

Score one for Max!