Speed deteriorated - IDNET not interested. What can i do?

[Andy1967]

Hi all,

I'm an IDNET customer who has seen my download/sync speed decrease significantly over the last 2 months.   I've never has a brilliant speed due to the distance from the exchange, but for the last 18months or so, this has been a steady 1.2mb/s.  Since December however, this has crashed to 300kb/s.  In todays age of content rich websites with large hi-res pictures and flash components, this means the internet is now unusable in my house.

I've complained to IDNet on a number of occasions and they reset the SNR at the exchange, and while this improves speed for an hour or two, it quickly declines backdown again.

I've also done everything support have suggested.

• The router is now connnected to the master test socket
• The router is away from electrical components
• Removed any extension wiring
• Fitted a IPlate

My neighour.  Immediate neighbour this is, less than 10ft from my house, is with BT.  Again while his speed is not brilliant, he gets 1.6mb, and has not seen a decline that i have.

IDNET now want to charge me £170 to arrange an engineer visit to fix what is clearly a problem with my connection.  I find this scandelous.  Quite simply they are not really interested.  They tell me they cannot control my connection speed, and that it is due to factors outside of their control. They cannot explain why a house 10ft away gets 3-5 times the speed i get.

I'm now fed up with them, and want out.  I've requested my MAC from them, and will look for alternative options.

Anyone any final suggestions?

regards

Andy

PS - Anyone any experience of using mobile broadband connected to a wifi router (e.g. 3's MiFi) for home use?

[Glenn]

  Andy, the charge is normally applied, only if the BT engineer can't find a fault with your line. As you have done as support have asked, it would seem that the fault lies on the BT side of the master socket. Do you have any stats available?

Have you tried a different router?

If it is a line problem, then moving provider will not fix the problem.

[Steve]

 

Mobile Broadband's ok if your provider has a 3G signal in your area,you can often get a dongle for a minimal fee. I have a 3 dongle probably giving similar speeds to what you had previously.

[kinmel]

You are having a bad time of it, but unfortunately the problem is not with Idnet's equipment.

BT Openreach own and maintain all the telephone equipment and cables up to your house.  Even if you could move to a LLU connection, the same line from the exchange will be used by whatever ISP you choose to move to and your problem will remain too.

The £170 callout charge is to BT not IdNet, if a fault is found on the BT line rather than in your house then you won't be charged.

Please read all this help FAQ if you haven't already.

Have you tried a different router ?  For such a long line we recommend the BT2700HGV Business router, they are readily and cheaply available from EBay.  I can even lend you one if you pay the return postage.

On very long lines such as yours, it is very common for neighbours to get very different connection speeds.

If you must move from Idnet then seriously consider the "We guarantee to fix your line" offer from AAISP

[Supanova]

If your neighbour is doing better on BT, I would switch to BT. I would imagine it's cheaper.

On the other hand if you switch and find your connection is still bad you will probably still end up potentially paying for an engineer to come to your house.

I would make the switch, especially if you feel badly treated/neglected by the IDnet customer service (which is one of the main reasons most of us are here), but that's just my personal opinion. Be wary of 12 month contracts....they trap people for a reason  

BTW if you happen to be in an O2 ADSL2 area I can thoroughly recommend them as I have had a couple of years of flawless service and excellent customer support. AVOID the 'access' package like the plague though.

I have been told before that switching ISP's would not fix the problems I was having in Yorkshire, but low and behold I switch ISP's and the problem vanishes.

[Andy1967]

Glenn,

This is not what i have been told by Simon at IDNET.  He said i have to pay the cost, and if a fault is found then i get a refund.  This a lot different.
I have no faith in this system.  Even if BT find a fault and fix it, what is to stop them saying no fault so they can keep my money?  

I have not tried another router, and can't see practically how i can do this, without buying a spare.  Would IDNET be prepared to lend me a 'test' router?

What stats do you want from the router?

Andy

[Glenn]

Andy, the stats will look something like below;

DSL Modulation Mode:         G.dmt
DSL Path Mode:            Interleaved
Downstream Rate:         7072 kbps
Upstream Rate:            832 kbps
Downstream Margin:         3 db
Upstream Margin:            12 db
Downstream Line Attenuation:   38 db
Upstream Line Attenuation:      10.5 db
Downstream Transmit Power:      12 db
Upstream Transmit Power:      5 db

Do you have any audible noise on the line when making a voice call, crackling or crosstalk (hear another conversation)?

[Andy1967]

Glenn,

Stats are below..

ADSL Statistics

Mode:    G.DMT
Type:    Fast
Line Coding:    Trellis On
Status:    No defect

                                   Downstream    Upstream
Rate (Kbps):                      1504     448

SNR Margin (dB):                       5.6     18.0
Attenuation (dB):               58.0     31.5
Output Power (dBm):               11.9     16.0

Super Frames:                   1998624     1998563
Super Frame Errors:                1339        17
RS Words:                                   0        0
RS Correctable Errors:                   0        0
RS Uncorrectable Errors:          0     N/A

HEC Errors:                          832     6
OCD Errors:                         5     0
LCD Errors:                             0     0
Total Cells:                  120519300     0
Data Cells:                             482038     0
Bit Errors:                                 0     0

Total ES:                              1094     0
Total SES:                                 2     0
Total UAS:                          14         0

There is no audible issue with telephone call quality ; No crosstalk, hissing, crackles or background noise.

Andy

[Steve]

Andy, has the adsl ever had interleave in place?

[Andy1967]

Steve,

I've been reading about interleave on the FAQ... I'm not aware of ever having to have this changed from the default.  I notice it introduces a little latency, but as i don't do internet gaming it's probably not an issue for me (though i do use video conferencing which it might impact)

So it be on or off for best performance and how do i check what it currently is?

thanks

Andy

[Andy1967]

Since starting this thread, my SNR has gone from a steady 6 upto 8.6, and the sync speed has dropped from 1500 to 730.

Don't know if someone at IDNET is trying to tweak settings.  Are the admins on here from IDNET?

Andy

[Glenn]

Andy, we are customers, like yourself, IDNet staff do read the forums though.

[Steve]

Looking at the stats I think  interleave is off as Type = fast, it should in theory be introduced automatically if the error count is sufficiently high enough for the DSLAM at the exchange to turn it on. So I am guessing that your error count is not too bad. Apart from that your stats look fine to me,the other thing that springs to mind is a congested Virtual Path at your exchange (your neighbour although on the same exchange may not be on the same VP) but presumably IDNet have "cleared" your exchange as the source of the slow throughput.


Sorry just noticed the resync how often are they happening?

[Glenn]

The stats are similar to mine, but I can't see why it connects 1500kbs slower?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Simon]

Hi Andy, and

I can't help technically, but I can confirm that the threatened call out charge from BT is not charged up front, so it wouldn't be a question of trying to get your money back if no fault is found.  I know this, from personal experience about three years ago, when I had to call them out myself, due to my having no phone connection at my new address.  A friend of mine also had to call them out more recently, as he had no dial tone, and in both cases, the fault was found on BT's side, and no charge was made.

[Andy1967]

Hi Andy, and

I can't help technically, but I can confirm that the threatened call out charge from BT is not charged up front, so it wouldn't be a question of trying to get your money back if no fault is found.  I know this, from personal experience about three years ago, when I had to call them out myself, due to my having no phone connection at my new address.  A friend of mine also had to call them out more recently, as he had no dial tone, and in both cases, the fault was found on BT's side, and no charge was made.

Simon,

Thanks for this... However i'm in a bit of catch 22..  I tried contacting BT and they refuse to send an engineer as they insist it must be done through my ISP as it's broadband related.  IDNET refuse to log a call with BT unless i pay them £170 upfront!

I'm thinking of jacking all this fixed line rubbish in and resorting to a Mobile Broadband.  That i have to rely on radio signals to get broadband when i have a perfectly good wire running to my house is just beyond me.  There is definately a case that broadband in this country is going backwards except for the fortunate few that live within 200 yards of their exchange, who can now get a mind blowing 24mb/s. Meanwhile, the rest of us make do with speeds that are that slow that i could write faster!

Andy

[dujas]

My guess is that Idnet are preempting BT Openreach being unable be able to find a fault and will just put it down to the apparent long line length, hence a call-out charge.

I don't know which brand of router you use, but DMT (DSL-Modem Tool) can tell you if your ADSL connection is interleaved or not, tracks error rates, and will also show any gaps in the frequently spectrum where external noise is preventing data transmission, thereby reducing the overall connection speed. (v8.07 is for Netgear).

Another program is Routerstats, which if left running over a period of a day or so, would show you fluctuations in SNR margin over time.

BT Speedtests run two to three times a day would also be useful. Basically you need to investigate what is happening, i.e. has the ADSL signal strength deteriorated permanently against the background noise, or is it only being affected at certain times of the day. Unfortunately it'll probably be a battle to get anyone interested in finding a cause and a solution

[Den]

Andy, I live about 2 miles from our exchange and I believe some of the cabling is alloy but with perseverance and a 2wire 2700hgv router I have got my speed up to over 6300 downstream even though BT said I would never better 2000 downstream. First you need to find out why the noise on your line is so high and then take up Allan's offer for the 2wire. 

[Simon]

I know it's not the main issue, but I think it's an important one, so I have asked IDNet to clarify when the BT call out fee is charged.

[kinmel]

I think Andy's best option is to give AAISP a month to fix the line, if they can't, then no one can.  At least that option costs nothing.

If Idnet are now charging BT's £170 up front and other ISPs aren't, a lot of people will simply move when they have a problem.

[Simon]

IDNet are aware of this thread, and are currently looking into the issues mentioned. 

[Simon_idnet]

We've reset the Target Noise Margin on this line 3 times now. When we do we see the router connect at 1.2Mbps which gives a Profile of 1Mbps. This shows that there is not a fault with the line itself. However, the DLM then increases the Noise Margin to 9dB and then to 12dB which reduces the sync rate and thus the Profile drops back to 0.5Mbps.

This shows that the line is suffering from interference. From BT's point of view the DLM is behaving correctly given the charateristics of the line by reducing the connection speed to assure stability. An Openreach engineer won't attempt to identify the causes of interference as those are either in the premises or in the environment and so we do not recommend it.

We used to only be allowed to book an engineer if a fault was identified on a line but we can now book an engineer if a customer wishes to book a paid-for visit. We pass-on that cost from Openreach to the customer. However, we do not recommend that course of action as we do not believe that an Openreach engineer would help at all.

Simon

[Baz]

I don't know which brand of router you use, but DMT (DSL-Modem Tool) can tell you if your ADSL connection is interleaved or not

its in german  

[Rik]

Thanks for clarifying that, Simon. 

[Andy1967]

We've reset the Target Noise Margin on this line 3 times now. When we do we see the router connect at 1.2Mbps which gives a Profile of 1Mbps. This shows that there is not a fault with the line itself. However, the DLM then increases the Noise Margin to 9dB and then to 12dB which reduces the sync rate and thus the Profile drops back to 0.5Mbps.

This shows that the line is suffering from interference.
Simon

Simon,

I do not doubt there is interference that is causing the loss of speed, however i have done as you have asked me and plugged my router into the test socket thus eliminating any noise that could be being introduced by anything i've done within my house.  Therefore the only other source of noise should be between the exchange and my property.   As my neighbour has not had a decrease in speed then it is reasonable to further assume that no noise is being introduced on the bulk of the line length.  Maybe it is a loose wire or damp, or gremlins at my property junction box, i don't know, but what i do know is that if i tamper with anything outside the property then i am acting illegally.

Andy

[Rik]

The problem is, Andy, that BT are only obliged to provide you with 28.8k speed. As far as they are concerned, your line is in spec, so a callout will have a 99%+ chance of incurring the fee.

[psp83]

I agree with Rik, My line has its times, more bad than good. Last time BT came out i got a £170 bill for a new faceplate! All he done was plug in his frog (little usb modem) tested the stats for 15mins and said everything was fine.

My friend across the road (albeit on a different pole) has full 8megs. I get just over 5megs.

Lately my line has decided to go from a 12db noise margin to a 15db noise margin for no reason (well one i cant see)

[quandam]

Andy 1967

I do agree with Supanova, having tried everything via IDNet go with BT and hopefully you will get the same result your immediate neighbour is getting.

Not totally satisfactory but probably the best way out of the situation whilst you contemplate the mobile option.

[Lance]

Although watch out as going with BT will lock you into a 12 month contract and won't change anything physically on the line. Any problem you have now you will have regardless of your ISP.

Have you tried an alternative router? Sometimes faulty routers can kick out random noise and interference.

[kinmel]

The problem can be caused by almost any electrical device nearby, read my post HERE.

You need to turn as much electrical stuff off as possible, including Sky and the fridge and reboot the router, see if there is any improvement then.

[D-Dan]

Simon,

I do not doubt there is interference that is causing the loss of speed, however i have done as you have asked me and plugged my router into the test socket thus eliminating any noise that could be being introduced by anything i've done within my house.  Therefore the only other source of noise should be between the exchange and my property.   As my neighbour has not had a decrease in speed then it is reasonable to further assume that no noise is being introduced on the bulk of the line length.  Maybe it is a loose wire or damp, or gremlins at my property junction box, i don't know, but what i do know is that if i tamper with anything outside the property then i am acting illegally.

Andy

Andy,

Whilst you may have reduced the incidence of noise, plugging into the master socket does not eliminate it. You still have a wire between the master socket and the router, and the router itself, which can all act like antenna to pick up noise. The trick is to identify the noise and then eliminate it. I spent 3 months a year and a half ago trying to identify the cause of random noise bursts on my line which eventually crippled my connection to 250k. I tracked the source of the noise to my monitor on my 2nd PC. I swapped the monitor out, contacted IDNet and reported my findings, and they reset my line. Problem went away.

There are tricks you can use, such as walking around with a detuned radio to listen for the noise, changing cables, buy the more expensive shielded cables, try a different router etc. I recommend trying all of these to identify the source of your problem, and eliminate it. Only then will you be able to recover your previous performance, or to be able to eliminate internal problems. Once you are confident that you have no internal issues, then BT have a responsibility to fix it.

Do you have a streetlight outside your home? These have been known to cause noise problems, too. Hell, I have a freeview box (now unused) which was sensitive to cars driving past. Noise can occur from a multitude of places and only time and perseverance will help you identify where.

Steve

[Andy1967]

Hi all,

Sorry to pump this to the top again...

I've managed to lay my hands on an old DLINK DSL604+ router... It old, and only supports wireless at 802.11b but worth a go..

Anyway i've got this up and running ant it shows the following stats.

Line Condition

   Auto Refresh

Protocol    ADSL State    Showtime
Data Path    Interleave
Operation Mode    G.DMT

                                              Downstream    Upstream
Line Status    ADSL Link Speed    1568   kbps    448   kbps
SNR                                              7.5 dB    8.0 dB
ATEN                                       52  dB    31  dB
Line Error    ADSL layer    FEC               29779    4
CRC                                                60    0
ATM layer    HEC                                45    0
Frame Counter                            13465    11681


I guess what is immediately striking is the upstream SNR at 8dB (compared to 18dB on my newer router) and
the ATEN at 52dB compared to 58dB on the new router.
Downstream SNR is comparable to readings on my newer router.

Firstly, what difference is the upstream SNR?  What is the significance of this?
Could the lower ATEN on the older router be a sign of something, or are newer router more accurate at measuring this?

thanks

Andy

[Steve]

The upstream margin is low its probably a reporting error,is it working any better though?