Losing sync all the time

qweezy · Mar 18, 2010, 15:36:50

Just trying to write this I have lost sync 7 times.

This has been a constant problem with my connection and its barely useable.

I dont care if I have to drop in speed, I just want it stable.

And why arent my sync speeds going down if it drops out so much?

Same in Test socket, nothing else plugged apart from the router and routerstats isnt compatible with my router. I did think I solved the problem with using a shorter ADSL able, but no.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 15:43:36

Your best bet would be to try a different router as a first measure if the test socket doesn't help. If that fails to improve matters, then try using a de-tuned MW battery-powered radio, tune it off station until you get just white noise, then follow the path of the phone cable from entry to router, listening for an increase in volume. If you find one, it suggests local interference. If neither of those actions help, then it's probably time to get a BT engineer out, but you risk a £170 fee if you do.

qweezy · Mar 18, 2010, 15:46:51

Is it possible that the router can be casing these issues?

I have a Belkin, which arent the best.

With the radio, what sort of noise can be considered interference?

Thanks.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 15:52:24

It can always be the router, it or its power supply can be dying.

Louder white noise is a sign of interference.

Dangerjunkie · Mar 18, 2010, 16:30:11

Hi there,

Welcome to the gang.

What sync speed are you getting?

Is this an installation that has never worked right since the day it was put in or did it used to be fine but now isn't?

Which brand of filter are you using, where did it come from and how long have you had it?

If you plug a phone in and make a voice call how does it sound? Good, faint, crackly, hissy, buzzy?

Do you have a cordless phone? Is the base station near your router or phone wiring?

Can you borrow another router to test (or get one free on Freecycle)?

Cheers,
Paul.

qweezy · Mar 18, 2010, 16:33:26

There doesn't seem to be an extra white noise around the ADSL cable.

If I continue to have issues is there any way my line can be made more stable?

I have had a BT engineer out before a few years ago and it solved nothing.

Also, why isn't my speed decreasing as its unstable?

I have only recently switched to ADSL2 and it seemed really stable in the first week or so, but now its just terrible. The loss of sync problem has always been there though.

I have noticed if I have the phone plugged in, there are crackles and hisses on the line when the router is trying to gain sync.

I am using a fairly new ADSL Nation XF-1e.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 16:39:25

What are your line stats? It may be that your profile isn't being affected by the resyncs because the target noise margin is already set as high as it can go. A BT speed test would be useful to tell us what the profile is doing.

ATM, unless you have maximum target NM and interleaving turned on, there's nothing that can be done to make the line more stable, other than to try a new router, phone and filter. In the future, ISPs should be able to override DLM to control the characteristics of a line, and that may help.

ADSL2+ is inherently more sensitive to noise, so I'm surprised you found it more stable.

The fact that you are hearing the router on the phone troubles me, so I would definitely start by changing the filter to eliminate that as a possibility.

Dangerjunkie · Mar 18, 2010, 16:43:12

Hi,

The crackles and hiss make it sound like there's a problem with your filter or router to me. ADSL Nation make fantastic filters but it might be worth trying another one (do you have an old filter anywhere?) just in case you've got the one faulty one in the batch of n-thousand.

Do you have a burglar alarm? Is it connected to the phone line? In the past we've seen numpty alarm installers attach alarms directly to the screws on the back of someone's master socket or onto a junction box without filters. In that situation the test socket will have the problem too.

Cheers,
Paul.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 16:45:17

Good thinking, Paul.

qweezy · Mar 18, 2010, 16:53:18

Okay, im going to try and fish out an old filter.

No Alarms at all!

It could be the router, but I remember having the same problem a few years ago when I was using a modem.

The BT Speedtester site is down at the moment. Or at least it is for me, haha.

The loss of sync seems to be quite random. I can have perfect connection for hours maybe even a day, but then it goes boom. Like today, my internet has been fine since this morning and about 2.30 I have been losing sync every few minutes.

Thanks.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 16:59:18

It could be external noise. What browser are you using, a BT test is essential in this sort of case.

qweezy · Mar 18, 2010, 17:25:24

Okay, this is what I get.

Download speedachieved during the test was - 1847 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 400-2000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :3162 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 888 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 2000 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 11.32:23.23:65.46 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 17:34:59

BT aren't even going to look at your line, I'm afraid. Although the profile is 500k low for the sync speed, your throughput, at 1847, is well above NT's minimum acceptable figure of 400.

Self-help is the order of the day, starting with the filter and then maybe the router.

Glenn · Mar 18, 2010, 17:41:44

Strange how what BT consider as acceptable follows the sync lower.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 17:43:50

IDNet have just tested your line qweezy, and everything points to a router issue as DLM is not seeing connectivity failures but router disconnects. It could be the power supply, it might be overheating, but beg, borrow or steal a different router and see if that helps.

Rik · Mar 18, 2010, 17:44:16

Quote from: Glenn on Mar 18, 2010, 17:41:44
Strange how what BT consider as acceptable follows the sync lower.

Bare minimum, you mean. I know.

qweezy · Mar 18, 2010, 23:40:06

Thankyou for the help.

I don't have another router available to me, so I'll take the plunge and buy another. This Belkin has been around for a while anyway.

Any pointers to a good router? Nothing overly expensive

Cheers

Rik · Mar 19, 2010, 09:28:27

Given your line length, it might be worth trying a 2-Wire 2700, around £10-15 from eBay (can be a lot cheaper).

Dangerjunkie · Mar 19, 2010, 11:35:15

Hi,

Another vote here for the 2700HGV. It's a great little router. I have one and it got me another meg and a half out of my line (5 meg up from 3.5). I don't promise it will give you that much extra but I would expect it to do better than the Belkin. You can find instructions on how to program it to divorce it from BT Internet and set it up for IDNet (and loads of help) in the 2-Wire 2700 Router issues board on here.

The other router I would recommend is the Draytek Vigor 2820n which is marginally better on my line than the 2700 and has n-type wireless if your laptop supports it. However at £140 it does go against your desire for something not too expensive.

Cheers,
Paul.

DorsetBoy · Mar 19, 2010, 11:49:10

Quote from: Dangerjunkie on Mar 19, 2010, 11:35:15
Hi,

Another vote here for the 2700HGV. It's a great little router. I have one and it got me another meg and a half out of my line (5 meg up from 3.5). I don't promise it will give you that much extra but I would expect it to do better than the Belkin. You can find instructions on how to program it to divorce it from BT Internet and set it up for IDNet (and loads of help) in the 2-Wire 2700 Router issues board on here.

The other router I would recommend is the Draytek Vigor 2820n which is marginally better on my line than the 2700 and has n-type wireless if your laptop supports it. However at £140 it does go against your desire for something not too expensive.

Cheers,
Paul.

I have the Vigor 2820 (non wireless) it is a superb piece of kit. It's good to have firmware that is specifically written for UK broadband too.

qweezy · Mar 19, 2010, 12:50:27

Thanks again guys.

Bought a 2700HGV 2 off ebay. Just have to wait for delivery!

Rik · Mar 19, 2010, 12:54:19

qweezy · Mar 25, 2010, 15:47:54

Hey guys,

Just got the new router (2700HGV) set-up and all seems good.

Syncing slightly better and getting 1mb extra download.

Lets just hope there is no dropping!

Thanks.

Rik · Mar 25, 2010, 15:48:48

The 2700 has worked some magic for a number of us with poor lines.

qweezy · Mar 25, 2010, 16:08:16

Just wondering, what would make the sync rate rise?

This is the first time I can see my line stats properly and 'apparently' I should be able to get around 5mb with 45db downstream attenuation. I am only syncing at 3443 currently.

Thanks.

Rik · Mar 25, 2010, 16:14:02

What's your target noise margin?

qweezy · Mar 25, 2010, 16:17:26

In the 2700 stats I have 16.4db down and 6.1db up for noise margin.

Rik · Mar 25, 2010, 16:21:20

That suggests your target NM has probably been pushed out to 15db by the DLM, due to either instability or errors. If the 2700 holds the sync, after 14 days, the margin should reduce to 12db, then 9 then 6 - depending on when the line becomes unstable. Each 3db drop is worth 5-700k of sync speed to you.

Glenn · Mar 25, 2010, 16:24:22

Interestingly, Brian told me a while back it would happen, I have lost 500kbs after my router resync'd, the attenuation rose from 58.9 to 59.2.

qweezy · Mar 25, 2010, 16:28:52

Thanks for all the help guys!

Lets hope it stays stable.

Rik · Mar 25, 2010, 16:30:16

Let us know how you get on.

qweezy · Mar 26, 2010, 18:18:46

All was going well, stable for just over 24 hours.

However, I lost sync again in last few minutes.

Shame

I was getting better speeds too.

qweezy · Mar 26, 2010, 18:23:18

And lost it again.....

Held sync for less than 5 minutes.

Steve · Mar 26, 2010, 18:26:27

There's some electrical 'noise' from somewhere.

Rik · Mar 26, 2010, 18:29:41

Have you done a quiet line test, qweezy, dial 17070, select option 2 and listen. You should hear just a quiet hum or hiss.

qweezy · Mar 26, 2010, 18:33:41

Hello,

Just did the quiet line test and its clear. No crackles or pops.

it must be interference from somewhere/something.

Rik · Mar 26, 2010, 18:39:28

It must. If you've done everything to eliminate your own setup, then all you can do is ask IDNet to get a BT engineer out to you, but be aware that may attract a £170 charge.

qweezy · Mar 26, 2010, 21:57:10

I want to avoid a BT Engineer at all costs. I have had one out before a few years ago and it solved nothing at all.

Just one last check, I plugged the router into the test socket and the attenuation values/Noise margins are the same.

I have been going around my house looking a bit crazy turning appliances on and off to see if it boots off the ADSL, but I haven't found anything.

The only possibility I can see is an electrical issue with the router. I have it plugged into a block in which a number of other electrical items run off, is there a possibility that the turning on/off of these items could disrupt the router?

I would be interested to know if the DLM still sees router DC's and not connectivity failures since I have started using the 2Wire.

Oh, and is it normal for the DSL Sync light to flash at different rates before sync? This happened with my Belkin and the 2Wire. The DSL light would flash very quickly, then slowly then quickly again until it synced and went solid.

Thanks.

Rik · Mar 27, 2010, 10:10:49

The test socket may not change the stats, qweezy, but you need to keep the router there for at least 24 hours, as it will indicate if there's an issue with your internal wiring. The power supplies with many routers, and definitely the 2700, are not of the highest quality, so I would recommend having it on a separate, surge-protected, socket. Even better is to use a small uninterruptible power supply.

You'd have to ask support about what the system is seeing on resyncs as we can't reach them today for routine issues.

The DSL sync light does exactly what you describe as it negotiates the sync. It seems to take longer on ADSL2+ than Max.