Download speeds

[macshac]

I joined idnet on 14/03/2007.
My download speed first two days was 2.9mb.I am 3KM from the exchange but now my speed has dropped to 1.4MB. I E mailed support and they said have to wait 10 days for line to settle down.
I can accept that but my real question is When I first got broadband from BT in July last year my speed ran at 3.9MB which dropped in Nov to 2.7MB Dec I lost all broadband for a week.
BT got me back on after new year when I ran at 2,7MB until Feb21st then dropped to 1.4MB.
Needlesss to say I left BT because of the unstable service and poor support.
They refused to accept there was anything wrong with my line.
Now the same thing is happening on idnet.
I am on the Max service.
Any comments most appreciated?

[Rik]

It does sound like your profile has been driven down by an unstable line. This would affect any ISP, which uses a BT IPstream product, you were with. Check the sticky here, and post your line stats, then we might be able to give you some clues.

[macshac]

Hi Rik
connection speed  1280Kbps Downstream  448Kbps Upstream
Line Attenuation    52db                         5.5db 
noise margin         11db                          18db
Last night was
                          3424Kbps                    448Kbps
                          52db                          15.5db
                          4db                            18db
I am using a Netgear DG834V2 router and XP Pro
The speedtester reported .969 Kbps download 
The phone number tester reported ADSL Max greater than 1.5Mbps
Hope this makes some sense double dutch to me but I still think there is a line fault who at BT wholesale could I complain to?

[Rik]

Given those figures, which are marginally better than mine, you should be seeing a throughput in the region of 2800kbps. How long have you been getting the low speeds? My guess, from your 12db noise margin (the Netgear habitually reports the figure a bit lower over time, it also halves the d/s attenuation, which will be 31db in your case) is that the line has been unstable and the DLM has upped the margin to try an achieve stability.

If this has happened recently, and you have not maintained a stable connection for 3 days (your router logs will show you), then you will need to wait.

If it has gone on for 3 days or more, then carry out the BT speed test mentioned in the sticky, and report your figures to support together with the IP Profile which that test will tell you.

[macshac]

Hi All
I took your advice and removed the ring wire from all my phone sockets on sunday am .
When I Logged on this morning the following are my stats:-
Connection speed 3040 upstream  448 downstream
Line attenuation       53db             15.5db
Noise margin            8db               21

It seems as though something has corrected the speed could this be Simons help or the removal of the ring wire?
Download speed 2456 download   448 Upstream

[Rik]

Nothing that Simon can do, despite his amazing powers, will alter your line characteristics. It look like the ring wire trick has done the job for you... (Of course, Simon may just have twisted a few arms at BT to get some work done at the exchange I suppose. )

Edit: I've added a graph of my router stats this morning, you can see clearly the big dips that I occasionally experience. With the extra 3db of headroom, I don't lose sync. At 6db I would.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[macshac]

Hi Rikbean
Where did you get the router stats program looks good?

[Lance]

You can download it here, macshac.

[Rik]

I don't know, I stop to have a sandwich and load the computer into the back of a van, on its way back to Evesham, and you're in there beating me to the post.

Thanks, Lance - saves me digging out the URL (I'll add it to the stickies, I think).

[macshac]

Thanks Lance
Although so far ,you have to be a computer scientist to configure it and as a silver surfer it may be beyond me Ill give it a go!!!!

[Rik]

If you're not sure of anything, just yell. It should work pretty much 'out of the box' if you have a Netgear.

[macshac]

Hi Rikbean
I have to say I am so grateful for the help I have received.
My download speed seems to be holding steady now at 2456 and I cannot believe it was so simple as taking out the ring wire.
I went through 30 E mails since Nov with the Indian connection etc.
and numerouse phone calls with the unstable line and at no point did anybody suggest your cure.
So!!!! well done Idnetters and its good to be on board

[Lance]

I'm glad we could help you! The ring wire is such a simple thing to do, and can yield great benefits!

[Lance]

I don't know, I stop to have a sandwich and load the computer into the back of a van, on its way back to Evesham, and you're in there beating me to the post.

Thats got to be a first!

[Rik]

I'll allow it just this once.

It was a good sandwich, followed by a good riddance too! Interesting, talking to the driver, he told me he's doing a lot of pickups lately and that Evesham's customer support has gone to pot... Can't argue there.

[Rik]

I went through 30 E mails since Nov with the Indian connection etc.
and numerouse phone calls with the unstable line and at no point did anybody suggest your cure.
So!!!! well done Idnetters and its good to be on board

We're not script jockeys, you see, just users who have picked up some knowledge as we go. The ring wire is a pesky, anachronistic, hangover and should be removed from BT's wiring instructions, imo.

It's good to have you among us, I'm sure w'll have you into full fanboy mode shortly.

[macshac]

Hi All
I have been running the router monitor and the line has dropped from 2.4 to 1.9 after a couple of days.
What is the rule of thumb re download speed to connection speed?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

See this sticky.

Your current sync speed would give you a profile of 1500kbps and throughput, on an optimised machine, of around 1350kbps.

[macshac]

Hi Rikbean
Thanks for your reply.
It seems my line noise has become more stable since I moved the BT phone out of the master socket to the next socket down the line from the computers and routers.
Do hand held phones with base stations affect the master socket?
As I said before when I first had BT broadband I had a much faster download speed but since adsl Max it appears that I have dropped below the 2mb download speed.
Looks like I will have to live with that but at least with all your help it looks like my line is becoming more stable.

[Rik]

Some brands of DECT phones do affect ADSL, but thankfully, they are few are far between. The placing of the phone's base station can be influential though, so it might be worth moving it around.

The weakest link in your connection is often the bit between BT socket and router, the quality of the cable can have a significant effect. For that reason, it's always better to keep that lead a short as possible and use longer ethernet cables, these can be up to 100m per segment, though I'd not recommend using that sort of length.

I find it puzzling that you should get a better result from a socket 'beyond' the master - what was plugged in, and where, at the time? The master is just the same as any socket on your wiring except that it has less cable between you and the exchange, only the test socket is 'special' in its behaviour.

If you previously had a fixed-rate 2Mbps connection, you might want to call support and get switched back to it. What is your current d/s attenuation and noise margin?

[macshac]

Hi Rikbean
My stats are as follows:-
Connection speed 3776 D/stream   448 u/stream
Line attenuation    54db             5.5db
Noise margin           5db              18db
Is This ok?
I put a copy of my stats on the last post!!!
Sorry didnt answer your query I think of the phone extension in our bedroom as beyond the master my apologies for my terminology.
I live in a bungalow overlooking the sea at westward ho! in Devon the master socket is in the hall with an extension in master bedroom.
When I moved in I had an additional socket put in by BT in the computer room.
Hope this makes sense!!!

[Rik]

Sorry, didn't realise the attachment was from Routerstats.

With that sync speed, you should be on a much higher profile. As it happens, your figures are more or less identical with mine, and I get a consistent 2500 profile (2400 throughput) with the occasional boost to a 3000 profile when the wind is in the right direction.

We do have one significant difference, though. I have had my target noise margin raised to 9db to stabilise the line. Your current profile suggests that your line has been unstable, and the result has been a lowering of the profile to reflect this. You may want to consider asking support to get your target margin raised.

Incidentally, for that attenuation, you should never have been given a 2Mbps fixed-rate connection, and probably wouldn't be able to get it now. BT sets the d/s attenuation limit for 2M at 43db.

[Lance]

I wonder why BT don't/didn't make the default target 9db rather 6db. If they had done that when they first brought out MAX, I'm sure many people would have far more stable lines!

[Rik]

Indeed they would, Lance, and perhaps peoples' expectations of Max would have been more realistic. However, I suspect there was someone in marketing who thought the higher speeds would look better and...

[macshac]

Hi Rikbean
Can you explain why my noise margin has dropped to Zero is this because I have
no noise on my line?
My down load speed dropped to .967 again about 4 pm today .I have just logged on again and speed is back up to 1.9.
I seem to have a stable line but still fluctuating on download speed.
I have informed Simon and he has asked that I continue to monitor for a couple of days.
Probably to get to the 10 day watershed.
I must admit as a silver surfer I am getting close to giving up on the broadband experience

[Lance]

Hi macshac,

The reason your noise margin has dropped to zero is because there is more noise on the line. It is simply a margin over the allowed noise level for your line. That way, for every 1db noise increases by, your margin decreases by the same amount.

You mustn't let MAX broadband put you off broadband altogether. If you find you can't get on with MAX, simply switch to a fixed speed package (normally free of charge to switch). This should hopefully solve any problems.

[Rik]

Hi Macshac

Don't give up on Max or ADSL, after the initial pain, it really does open up new horizons.

Can you explain why my noise margin has dropped to Zero is this because I have
no noise on my line?

As Lance says, 0db noise margin is actually bad. The higher the figure the better, but with Max, it will normally loiter around 6db. When the margin falls, it becomes harder for the router/modem to separate out the ADSL signal from the background noise. Eventually, it reaches a point where it can't and the router/modem will re-sync, usually with a lower sync speed.

During the 10 day 'training' period, BT will try and drive your line as hard as it will go, so you will see the line re-sync a number of times to try and obtain the fastest stable speed it can achieve.

Have a read of the sticky here, particularly the first and third sections. You may want to take a look at your wiring, it has a big influence on Max.

As Lance says, if things don't improve, you can always switch to a fixed rate connection. If you post your line stats here, we can tell you what sort of speeds you can expect, details of how to do it are here.

[macshac]

Hi all
I have attached my last two logs from the monitor what do you think?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

I get the impression that DLM may have pushed your line speed down to stabilise it, which it seems to be achieving. That should then get you a profile of 2500, throughput of just under 2400bps.

[macshac]

Hi Guys
I have attached my latest Log and what is noticeable is the blips down to the bottom of the noise were when our hands free phone was being used.
It is a BT Diverse 6250.
This is the base station I moved off the master socket to a bedroom why would this affect my line when we have a phone call?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

Can you try with another phone? My guess is that either the phone or the filter is faulty. If you swap both, one at a time, you can establish which it is.

[macshac]

What is interesting is this is the free phone which BT supplied with the home hub in Lieu of the Voip phone which they supplied eventually and I left the 6250 on line as my ordinary phone.
I have taken it offline and put back the freelance xd500 that I had origionally.
I will try that out for a while.
Rikbean my question still stands can a phone not in the master socket affect the adsl line?

[Rik]

Anything connected to your line, including all phones, Sky boxes, analogue modems and fax machines, can and do affect your signal, as does the quality of the filters you use (which serve to mitigate the effects of bad equipment). The master socket is a bit of a red herring, the only socket which isolates everything and gives you a clean connection to the exchange pair is the test socket behind the faceplate of an NTE5 master socket. Once the NTE5 faceplate is in place, all sockets are pretty much equal.

[macshac]

Hi Guys I as you know have been monitoring my line and the 10 day period is on Monday but what causes the monitor to drop so badly in some instances, see attached graph.
Is this normal activity or just a bad line?

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

That noise variation is similar to mine, as are your line stats. Longer, and poorer quality, lines are more susceptible to noise variation. Have your read the sticky and disconnected the ring wire at all sockets? That single action can do a lot to stabilise a line.

[macshac]

Hi Rik
Yes as this is my post from the beginning we are at the end of a long haul.
I still cannot understand why from Jan to feb 21 this year I was getting 2.7 download speeds on this line with ring wire and with the phone i have taken off line.
BT did something on the 21 feb and since then I have had instability.
It is improving with you guys help but when I moved to BT Broadband last july my download speed was 3.7 so I still believe my line can if managed correctly provide faster speeds.
I am only 3Km from the exchange!!!!

[Rik]

Is that straight line distance, Mac? Your attenuation suggests a cable distance of some 5.4km.

Have you talked to support about the difference in speeds since moving over?

[macshac]

Hi Rik
I spoke to Simon but he wants to leave it the full 10 days since moving over from BT Broadband on the 14th.
It is a straight line distance I would imagine but as I said the line has supported faster speed but I think BT did something that made it drop and I could never get them to acknowledge which is why I had enough and left them.
I am hoping when Simon is ready that he will have the line checked out.

[Rik]

Depending upon how you moved, IDNet may have to wait the 10 days before they can do much. However, I do know, from personal experience, that they get their teeth into BT and don't let go until they've got the best result for their customers that is possible.

I 'gained' about 3db attenuation following work at the exchange, I'm still not sure why or how, but it's reduced to 1db now, which could be just a margin or error in reporting.

[macshac]

Hi Rikbean
It turns out this morning that Simon chased up BT to find out that they had not fully migrated me yet (dont know what that means).
Simon said that when I am fully migrated the system should correct itself!!!!

[Rik]

Sounds like BT is being its usual efficient self.

[macshac]

Hi Rik
My speed has just returned to 2.5 download ,so Simon chaseing them up seems to have done the trick.
I do not think our efforts are wasted, as my monitor so far has shown a constant straight line on the noise margin of six.
Proves that moving to Idnet was the right thing.

[Rik]

Moving to IDNet is always the right thing!

I doubt they would claim credit for the stable noise margin, though, that's strictly down to the physical state of your line, though with IDNet, you can bet that Miriam nagged BT to make sure the connection was done well!

[Lance]

Why, oh why, are BT so useless!

[Rik]

Because they can be?