ADSL2+ Training Period?

[RCS2K4]

Hopefully nothing to worry about, but after being on 8MB ADSL, our exchange finally got the upgrade from BT to ADSL 2. Thing is, despite the sync rate on the router jumping up (well, sort of. It's still a lot lower than expected, especially the upload speed), actual thruput from using a few speed test sites shows no actual improvement at all - It's still approx 7.1MB/Sec down and 0.75MB/Sec up.

There's a summary of the routers screen below, but I have 4 questions:
1 - Does the line enter a stability/testing period for 5-10 days etc from first activation?
2 - Line attenuation is low, so can my download sync rate be increased?
3 - Upload speed is pathetic - Can that be increased too?

Routers summary screen:

Router (Netgear DGND3300 V2)

ADSL Link Status: Active
PPPoA Link Speed: Speed 18339 kbps (Down) 888 kbps (Up)
Line Attenuation: 11.1 db (Down) 6.4 db (Up)
Noise Margin: 5.3 db (Down) 12.4 db (Up)

Finally, for my 4th (and final) question, I posted some speeds back in this old thread from the 8MB connection:
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=18731

Comparing the 2 now, my line attenuation has stayed about the same, but the noise margin figures are a lot different (Was 11Db Down and 10Db up). Will this affect anything, or explain poor speeds on ADSL2+ ? Can that smaller margin also affect stability?

Look forward to some feedback, thanks

[Rik]

Hi

1 - Yes
2 - It's negotiated between router and MSAN, so there's no tweaks that IDNet can do. You may be able to help yourself with phone wiring or router changes. ADSL2+ is more noise sensitive than ADSL1
3 - Same answer, I'm afraid. The noise margin is higher than it needs to be, so eliminate any potential sources locally, then talk to IDNet after 10 days if it hasn't improved. A BT speed test would be handy at this point as it will show us what your profile is.
4 - The downstream NM has decreased to the target 6db to give you a higher sync speed. The upstream has increased, lowering your potential sync speed - possibly due to noise in that part of the spectrum.

[RCS2K4]

Wow, thanks for such a fast reply.

Which part of this whole process is affecting actual thruput then? The link speed is good, not great, but is still hovering around 18MB/Sec. While this figure is never realistically achieved, I thought I can get something better than around 7MB/Sec from the speed test carried out 2 moments ago. I could do that on "old" ADSL, and did every day. I was hoping to realistically double the download speed compared to what we had before, especially as the exchange is barely 500 meters away too!

[Rik]

Run a BT test, chances are the profile hasn't yet adjusted.

[RCS2K4]

Run the test - Wow, this totally sucks.

While it was running it said:
The Performance Tester is now testing Broadband connection. Your configured download throughput speed for this service is 7150 k

The results file said:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 7073 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speedsis 6400-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :18338 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 888 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 7150 Kbps

Thats very similar to the findings in my old thread linked above. Any way to force that IP Profile to change, or will it just do it (soon hopefully!)?

[Steve]

Hopefully it will move up of its own accord

[Rik]

The profile will move of its own accord. Relax and wait for a big change in speed, 16Mbps if you maintain that sync.

[RCS2K4]

Cool, i'll take 16MB

The NM figs are worrying on the upload side of things. Since my earlier post 40 minutes ago, the NM figure has gone from 12.4Db (Up) to 14.2Db (Up). Is it having difficulty keeping hold of the 888Kb/Sec upload speed or something?

[Rik]

No, it means there's less noise around now, so the margin has increased by that amount - unless the router has resynced.

[RCS2K4]

Ahhhhh, ok. Thats good news then

Thanks for all your help. I am a total novice when it comes to the technical ins and outs of how this works.

I'll update again on Monday - With a bit of luck, the lines profile will have changed by then

[Rik]

 

[RCS2K4]

Your estimation of 16MB was right on the money:

Tested on the London Server:


Tested on the Milton Keynes one:


Those speeds about where they should be? It appears to have settled down now, and the NM figures have not moved in 30 hours or so. I'm just a little disappointed the upload figure is not higher thats all - Don't know if that can be bumped somehow while sacrificing a little bit of the download speed?

[Rik]

It can when Annexe M is implemented, but not yet. I'd be happy with your d/l though if you want my u/l.

[RCS2K4]

It's a done deal!  

Not being too technical with how ADSL2 works, I had to Google Annex M to find out what it can do for a connection.

From what I read, it's exactly what I am looking for. It comes across as an "upload plus" kinda thing, and similar to the system we had on "old" ADSL to get the upload speed to 800K (Rather than 500K). Any idea on when it's available at all?

I'm not sure if it's something that IDNET have to do to make it supported, or whether it's a further upgrade that BT need to roll out. The article I read says that some LLU operators such as BE offer it already (They claim an enhanced upload rate of 2MB+, while loosing a little bit of D/L speed). It gives no mention of support or potential speeds on non-LLU services tho.

Only reason I am so critical of the upload speed is because I have a little webserver downstairs with a few sites on it!

[Rik]

It's a BT rollout that we're waiting for, sadly.

[adamr8965]

I can only dream of this speed, unless i go to talktalk llu.

[Rik]

And possibly even then.

[adamr8965]

Hmm more than possible.

[RCS2K4]

Hmm more than possible.

If the speeds in your sig are anything to go by, you'll be in good standing to get great speeds on ADSL2+ (You have almost identical speeds to me when we were on 8MB ADSL). I take it you can't get it in your area?

If it's any consolation, I've been waiting years to get it. The original "Switch On" date for ADSL2 over BT was in 2008. We had BE's LLU put in the exchange at the start of 2009, but I've been there and DO NOT recommend it! The grass is not always greener if you switch ISP. I was with IDNET for 14 months before BE's service was available, and switched as soon as it was available because of the higher speeds. Was back at IDNET a week later and have stayed ever since...

I bet you will never find another ISP who looks after customers as good as this one does. It truly has been faultless since 2008

[adamr8965]

hey rcs2k4, Yeah i get gr8 speeds on adsl upto 8meg, was with sky connect until jan 2010 when i moved to idnet. Has to be the best move i made bb way.

Been with a few providers now talktalk, freeserve, sky, and now idnet, i get around 6.85 steady alday and night. I have found out talktalk is now a llu in my area upto 24 meg. And sky i dont think are far behind. Living on a new housing estate on the edge of town im suprised at the speeds i get. But we have a friend who works for but and it's brand new underground cable from the exchange to the houses here, Hence the good speeds.

Also have kingston comms, they have cabled the whole town. upto 24 meg speeds aswell, and the green magic box is 200 meters away ish.

Dont really want to move, and proberbly wont. my bandwith is going past 140gb a month.

[RCS2K4]

Hold out for BT to roll out 21CN to your area - I waited years for it, but it's so much more stable than BE's LLU (It's faster too).

I would avoid TalkTalk and Sky like the plague. They have good prices, but have some rather undesirable traffic shaping policys I would be keen to avoid. They probably suffer slowdown at peak tiimes too, or deliberatly throttle back connections. Furthermore, I have Sky TV - Ringing their customer services leaves a lot to be desired, so can only imagine what their broadband support would be like.

I used to be with Pipex years ago - They were great until Tiscali bought it. Boy did service slide 3-4 months later when I got moved onto Tiscali (They didn't tell anyone you were being moved into their LLU). My previously good 8MB connection on Pipex was cut to about 1-3 MB on Tiscali. They said it's all my line could take.

You'll be in for all of this with the 2 ISP's I have covered above.

I can't find much out about Kingston comms, so I suspect they are small (like IDNET). They could be good, as small ISP's really work hard to look after customers, but none are as good as this ISP, honnest!

[Steve]

I've read some poor reviews on Kingston Communications,they are a monopoly supplier in Hull.Most complaints were of poor speeds especially at peak time.

[Glenn]

http://www.karoo.co.uk/

Some customer views http://www.broadbandgenie.co.uk/broadband/review/karoo-broadband

[adamr8965]

Kc are a large ish company they rule hull beverley and other parts of east yorkshire. Im staying with idnet for the future, untill vm every come or i move in a vm cabled area, dont think i could resist the speeds they offer. But for now im staying put at idnet. Bt will never roll out wbc here in driffield theres no point when theres only 7500 people here.

[kinmel]

I changed over to ADSL2+ yesterday and it has been a complete disaster.

On ADSL Max I would sync at around 4512 @ 6dB and would remain connected for weeks on end.

When the changeover was carried out yesterday my sync rate dropped just a little to 4384 @ 6dB and then started to fall, by  4.30 am  it was connected at 3483 @ 9.1dB and after 24hours I am now connected at 3822 @ 9.3dB.

It seems my SNR has been increased to 9dB and I have lost 1meg off my profile 

[Rik]

Give it a while and see if it settles, Alan - maybe try another router? If, after the training period, the problem persists, then IDNet can switch you back to ADSL1 modulation.

[kinmel]

Downhill all the way,  this morning it was sync'd at 2976, SNR is now fixed  @12dB.

Is it possible to abandon ADSL2+ before the 10 days training period is up ?

[Rik]

I really don't know, Alan, and can't phone support to check, so I'd suggest you email them.

[Rik]

Hi Alan

It is possible to abandon ADSL2+ immediately, but you may get lower speeds from the MSAN anyway.

[kinmel]

Thanks Rik

I can see myself ending up on LLU with Talktalk, or O2     

[Rik]

Bear in mind last month's trial, which I was on, which allowed ISPs to override DLM. When that goes live, and we don't yet have a date, they can tweak quite a bit of extra speed out of your line.

[kinmel]

Bear in mind last month's trial, which I was on, which allowed ISPs to override DLM. When that goes live, and we don't yet have a date, they can tweak quite a bit of extra speed out of your line.

You are suggesting patience here Rik 

[Rik]

I am, but if things are bad, you could consider it later, when that system goes live, returning to vanilla ADSL in the interim.

[adamr8965]

why are they doing these trials rik, dont see the point in a 0.5meg gain.

[Steve]

0.5 a lot if you've got say only 2Mb

[adamr8965]

true steve, but how unstable will it make the line? thought that was the whole point of dlm

[Rik]

In my case, line stability has improved.

[adamr8965]

When can they try on my line then?

[Rik]

When BT release the system - no date as yet, sadly.

[adamr8965]

why was you allowed to try it then, are you a good boy?

[Rik]

I do some testing for IDNet and my line was an ideal candidate for this tweaking.

[adamr8965]

In other words u eat your greens and sue let you out to play?

[Glenn]

why was you allowed to try it then, are you a good boy?

[adamr8965]

rik?

[Rik]

Close enough.

[Glenn]

Yep, it's a very good likeness too.

[Rik]

In other words u eat your greens and sue let you out to play?

It's the spinach which does it.

[adamr8965]

ah i see, long whiskes.

[Rik]

It shows my age.

[kinmel]

Does anyone understand the dark art of BT's training period.

Since changing over to ADSL2+ my connections defy logic, the 2700 does 3 test connections before making a permanent sync and on the last resync by the Router it achieved 3 test sync rates of 4129,3977 and then 3977.  The router was then connected by BT at 3069 with a 7.4dB SNR, with AdslMax the sync rate was always one of the 3 test results.

Anyone got any thoughts on what is happening, these are my sync figures since the changeover.........

[Steve]

WBC Banded line profile with a max sync of 3072???

WBC banded line profile (rate kbps)
7168 - 14336
4864 - 9728
3328 - 6656
2272 - 4544
1472 - 3072
1152 - 2272
576 - 1152
288 - 576
160 - 288

[Rik]

ADSL2+ does seem a little weird, Alan, I find that the reported sync speed from the router doesn't match what BT says I'm connected at if I do a BT test. Plus what  Steve said.

[kinmel]

ADSL2+ does seem a little weird, Alan, I find that the reported sync speed from the router doesn't match what BT says I'm connected at if I do a BT test. Plus what  Steve said.

This morning's BT speedtest shows the correct sync rate and a 2500 profile.

[adamr8965]

adsl2 seems very unstable judging by the posts, is it always like this? maybe i should just stay in adsl 8meg.

[Rik]

It's a case of suck it and see. For me, I've gone from 2.5M to 4M, others have seen speed improvements of varying degree, some get problems.

[adamr8965]

Well thats nearly double rik so pretty good i think.

[Rik]

So do I, others are running at much higher speeds still, and a handful encounter problems.

[kinmel]

Well it is day 8 of my ADSL2+ training period and since day 3 I have been firmly stuck on a sync rate of 3069, irrespective of my SNR at a re-boot and changing routers alters nothing

I have been put on a fixed rate ADSL2+ connection that is 40% lower than my ADSLmax rate.

[Rik]

Your ten days is up shortly, Alan, so IDNet can kick the tyres for you on Wednesday.

[adamr8965]

So do I, others are running at much higher speeds still, and a handful encounter problems.

My next door neighbour is running virgin media and theres only one exchange and she cant get anyway near the speeds of me.

[kinmel]

I don't see what is gained by a "training period" that simply locks the line at 3069 and then does nothing for 8 days !

[Rik]

It's designed by BT to reduce their workload.

[adamr8965]

It's designed by BT to reduce their workload.

Theres a suprise.