What causes a CHAP time-out?

[Jimbo]

Hi all

Support are helping me with a weird issue at the moment and I've just sent a screenshot off to them.  Last night I couldn't get my Internet to work.  I had been connected most of the day and line is still connected and sync'd but noticed in the Syslog tool for the DrayTek router that CHAP (PPoA) had timed-out.  No idea what time it got back on but I gave up and left it until tonight.

I recently changed my Mode from GDMT to ADSL2(G.992.3) and gained some speed from this, worried though, if that caused this?  Although I'm back on now so I'm confused.  I managed to dump some info into a log file and it has references to,

PPP Closed - LCP Time-out

WAN1 PPPoE ==> Protocol:LCP(c021) TermReq Identifier:0x06 ##

WAN1 PPPoE <== Unknown: aa aa 03 00 00 00 08 06 00 13 08 00 00 00 00 08 04 00 00 00 01 01 01 01 ##

WAN1 PPPoE ==> Protocol:LCP(c021) ProtRej Identifier:0x01Rejected Protocol: 0x8057 01 01 00 0e 01 0a 02 12 7f ff fe ae 41 1b ##




Like I say, sent it to Support so it's in their capable hands.  Is that a problem at my end?  

Thanks all.

[Rik]

I don't know, tbh, Jimbo. First thing I'd do is switch the router back, or let it auto-detect. Bear in mind, though, that these has been massive disruption to the BT network over the past few days.

[Steve]

Where is the PPPOE to PPPOA bridge? If that makes sense?

[Jimbo]

I don't know, tbh, Jimbo. First thing I'd do is switch the router back, or let it auto-detect. Bear in mind, though, that these has been massive disruption to the BT network over the past few days.

Hi mate

Yeah I've just been reading some other threads so it could possibly be all down to this, although they all seem to be down South and no where near me.  But I guess it could all link together in some weird and wonderful way. 

[Rik]

It is. I'm 50 miles from Paddington was was still affected, even though we have a node here at Milton Keynes. BT moves data in mysterious ways.

[Jimbo]

Where is the PPPOE to PPPOA bridge? If that makes sense?

I don't even know what that is. lol    Is that when you have say, an external modem?

Just logged in and checked my settings.

Protocol is set to PPPoA.
PPPoE Pass-Through is not ticked (for Wired or Wireless LAN).  
PPP Authentication is PAP or CHAP (Always on, Idle Timeout -1sec).  
Encapsulation is VC MUX.
Modulation, ADSL2+ (G.992.5).  
VPI 0 and VCI is 38.
WAN Connection Detection is ARP Detect

[Jimbo]

It is. I'm 50 miles from Paddington was was still affected, even though we have a node here at Milton Keynes. BT moves data in mysterious ways.

Cheers Rik, makes me feel a bit better that it may just all be linked. 

[Steve]

The settings look ok to me anyway.

[Jimbo]

The settings look ok to me anyway.

OK cheers Steve.

My internet died again last night, same thing PPP time-out.  Notice when it tried to reconnect it said PPP: Remote Termination.   

Back on now again, but Support still want me to try another Router.  I dunno, is it worth a shot?

Thanks.

[Rik]

I think so, Jimbo.

[Jimbo]

I think so, Jimbo.

More money.    Here's what happened last night when it finally authenticated properly.  Couldn't load any webpages and Pings were like this:-



Internet still sync'd at just under 3Mb but slow tonight.

New Router it is. 

[Jimbo]

Hi all

Just to say, haven't got another router tested yet, my old cheap spare decided that it didn't like it's power plug anymore and died also.    Thank you to the inventor of sealed plugs also!!

But, still having major problems!  My WAN is now disconnecting @8pm every night (+- 15min).  I've tried updating the firmware and doing a factory reset on the Router.  Still not helping. 

Is anyone else having issues like this? 

[Rik]

Hi Jimbo

It is WAN or LAN that's the issue. If WAN are you seeing any signs of loss of sync?

[Jimbo]

Hi Jimbo

It is WAN or LAN that's the issue. If WAN are you seeing any signs of loss of sync?

Hi Rick

It's WAN.  Getting CHAP disconnection at the same time every night.  Line stays up, unless I fiddle with the Router or change a setting to see if that helps and cause a reboot, etc.  I've tried altering from ARP Detect to Ping, which did not help.  I've also reduced the MSS (MTU?) from 1442 to 1400, that has not helped. 

[Jimbo]

Not long to go now....... Sorry if I don't reply from this point onwards.... 

[Rik]

Neither do I, too busy eating?

Set the MTU to 1500, though it shouldn't be part of the issue. If the problem persists, you need to talk to support again as they will be able to see what's happening to the line.

Do you have much else connected to the router or line?

[Jimbo]

Neither do I, too busy eating?

Set the MTU to 1500, though it shouldn't be part of the issue. If the problem persists, you need to talk to support again as they will be able to see what's happening to the line.

Do you have much else connected to the router or line?

Haha food. yum!

Well it did go off, lost connection about 20 past 8 last night.  Yeah, support want me to try a new Router then get a BT engineer out if that fails.  What gets me, I don't know if you agree Rik, is that apparently there was an issue with a Netgear router and o2 users.  At a specific time each night people would get WAN disconnections, turns out it was the Firewall blocking the update of the lease?  Could that be happening here?
 
Nothing else connected, just the Router.

Cheers

[pctech]

Hi Jim

I've had all sorts of bizarre behaviours from routers but these tend to have been caused by gremlins creeping into the firmware (these have often baffled tech suppoort at the ISPs I have been with)

Before you junk the router, leave it plugged in and try pressing the factory reset switch (usually on the back panel), you will need to reenter your connection login but its generally worked for me before.

[Jimbo]

Hi Jim

I've had all sorts of bizarre behaviours from routers but these tend to have been caused by gremlins creeping into the firmware (these have often baffled tech suppoort at the ISPs I have been with)

Before you junk the router, leave it plugged in and try pressing the factory reset switch (usually on the back panel), you will need to reenter your connection login but its generally worked for me before.

Ok will give that a go as well.  Thanks for the help! 

[Rik]

Also, if you're using it through a surge protector, try going direct to the mains...

[Jimbo]

OK, did a hard reset via the button.  Then re-loaded the latest firmware, then just for good meausure, rebooted with factory defaults once more.

Reapplied all my settings manually then switched off the Router for 10-15min.

Just powered back up and connected.  So far, so good.  See what happens tomorrow night now.

Rik, cheers for the tip, forgot to unplug it from the surge protector after switching it back on just now. 

[Rik]

It's not always the answer, Jimbo, but some surge protectors can drop the voltage a bit and cause weird problems as a result.

[pctech]

Not sure what surge you are using but after a lightning strike took out my old 56k modem I bought a Belkin Surgemaster Gold series one with telecom protection, unlimted connected equipment insurance (in the event it lets anything through) and a lifetime warranty.

After about 3 years and a few lightning storms later I noticed the protected and earthed LEDs were glowing a bit weak so I rang Belkin and they told me to send it back and they'd send me a brand new one and sure enough they did.

As Rik says the voltage can drop, particularly if the circuitry is getting a bit old if it has absorbed a lot of surges etc.

Might be time to replace the one you have if you've had it for a while.

On the router front thats good news.

[pdu]

Unfortunately, most so called surge protectors are pretty much a joke as they tend to rely on a component called a MOV, these have a finite life expectancy even with clean power, yet tend to die with either one large surge or a few smaller ones.  Naturally most 'surge protectors' are wired so as to continue supplying power to the outlets, in theory the light should fail, but it's not uncommon for a MOV to be alive enough to still power the indicator yet provide virtually no protection: wiki mov link.  Basically, if you care about the connected device, plug it into a high quality surge protector (these cost a wedge and aren't found in the likes of B&Q) or UPS, as the battery backup on these along with voltage sensors provide better protection, if you don't care about the device, save yourself £2 on the cost of a power strip.  For any serious danger level spikes, chances are the RCD protection in your consumer unit will kick it before you reach fire hazard levels.

On another note re the original post being about a draytek router, I'd recommend you get yourself another cheap router just to compare the difference, when I bought a 2820 it couldn't hold a connection beyond 24 hours either, after 3 days I plugged my trusty old d-link dsl504t - half covered in plaster - back in (visit your local museum to see one) and my disconnections stopped.  I returned the router for a refund and built my own with some cheapo PC hardware for about the same cost.  Basically from what I remember, it wasn't actually much better h/w than you get in any other half decent router, draytek just loads the software with lots of options and features it can't actually cope with.  After discovering this, I got a friend to remove his cable version of the draytek to see if it stopped him disconnecting from IRC about 45 minutes, a netgear off freecycle solves his stability issues too.

HTH

[Rik]

Thanks for that. I'm a great believer in the value of UPS too, and have all my equipment protected by one, even the Sky box.

[Jimbo]

Unfortunately, most so called surge protectors are pretty much a joke as they tend to rely on a component called a MOV, these have a finite life expectancy even with clean power, yet tend to die with either one large surge or a few smaller ones.  Naturally most 'surge protectors' are wired so as to continue supplying power to the outlets, in theory the light should fail, but it's not uncommon for a MOV to be alive enough to still power the indicator yet provide virtually no protection: wiki mov link.  Basically, if you care about the connected device, plug it into a high quality surge protector (these cost a wedge and aren't found in the likes of B&Q) or UPS, as the battery backup on these along with voltage sensors provide better protection, if you don't care about the device, save yourself £2 on the cost of a power strip.  For any serious danger level spikes, chances are the RCD protection in your consumer unit will kick it before you reach fire hazard levels.

On another note re the original post being about a draytek router, I'd recommend you get yourself another cheap router just to compare the difference, when I bought a 2820 it couldn't hold a connection beyond 24 hours either, after 3 days I plugged my trusty old d-link dsl504t - half covered in plaster - back in (visit your local museum to see one) and my disconnections stopped.  I returned the router for a refund and built my own with some cheapo PC hardware for about the same cost.  Basically from what I remember, it wasn't actually much better h/w than you get in any other half decent router, draytek just loads the software with lots of options and features it can't actually cope with.  After discovering this, I got a friend to remove his cable version of the draytek to see if it stopped him disconnecting from IRC about 45 minutes, a netgear off freecycle solves his stability issues too.

HTH

Sorry for the late reply. 

Just to update people, should be getting a spare Router from a chap at work, so will test that out shortly.

Still been having issues and to top it off, this weekend, I've suddenly lost half of my connection speed.  Down to 1148kbps.  Tried restarting once on Saturday and twice on Sunday and re-sync'd at exactly the same value.  I turned the Router off last night, just powered on now, and I have reconnected with the same results.

I have emailed Support again to see if they can manually do anything at their end, as I used to run 2.5Mb perfectly fine.  So I'm getting a bit fed up again now.  Disconnects every evening and now my internet is down to a crawl!

I want to buy the new-ish Netgear DGND3300, but at ~£100, it's just like "why should I have to pay out again, the DrayTek is nearly brand new still".

I did email DrayTek Support, but they have not come across this issue before. 

Cheers.

[Rik]

Draytek's can be quite bad for some lines, Jimbo. Ask IDNet if they have a router they could loan you. Sync speed is purely an issue between your router and the exchange, so there's not a lot IDNet can do.

[Jimbo]

...Sync speed is purely an issue between your router and the exchange, so there's not a lot IDNet can do.

Just thought that it's weird, that on 3... no 4 reboots now, it's gone back to the exact same figure.  I don't know if something is stuck?  Or if it's being forced? 

[Rik]

DLM could be forcing it if the noise levels or the error count are high.

[Jimbo]

DLM could be forcing it if the noise levels or the error count are high.

Is that SNR?  My SNR value is 3... which I think is good?

RX CRC Errors is 1.

Loop Attenuation is 57.

Thanks.

[Rik]

An SNR of 3 could be bad, it depends on what it is just after resyncing. If it's the default of 6db, then you've got 3db of added noise on the line now. That error count is low, did you check for FEC errors?

[Jimbo]

An SNR of 3 could be bad, it depends on what it is just after resyncing. If it's the default of 6db, then you've got 3db of added noise on the line now. That error count is low, did you check for FEC errors?

Hmm just telnet on to Router and my DS Interleave depth is 384.  I'm sure that used to be something like 32.  For comparison, my US Interleave depth is 8.  I wonder if that has something to do with this?

Just enabled dual-latency?  Not sure if that's good or bad, but will see if it makes a difference.  Going to do an "adsl reboot" now and see what happens.....

[Jimbo]

OK adsl reboot ran, connected at exactly the same speed. 

BUT.... SNR is now 6dB and Router reports that the DS Attainable Rate is 2222Kbps!  So why am I being "forced" to half this speed? 

[Steve]

My two pence for what its worth. With regard to interleave depth I've not seen any figures for adsl2+ I think 64 was the max for adslmax.I can find no further information on www.kitz.co.uk. Why can you not get a higher sync? I think possibly your are on a banded profile 572-1152 i.e BT will not let your line sync any higher than this fullstop. Why is this imposed? It seems to be applied to lines which have an imperfect connection whether this be due to noise/interference,frequent retrains and lastly high error counts. It is possible to get this removed but the reasons behind its implementation have to be cured or alleviated first otherwise it will be reapplied.

Have you discussed with support re having your connection re modulated to adslmax , you should keep upstream sync benefit and of course adsl2+ bandwidth allowances.

[Steve]

Reed Solomon Octets make a figure of 384 theoretically possible. as interleave depth goes up 8,16,32,64

The interleave depth in this link is 224 so yours is possibly reported correctly
http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/dslrouter/t/3722029-routers-known-to-work-well-with-infineonhuawei-msan.html

[Rik]

What Steve says, Jimbo, it sounds like a banded profile.

[Jimbo]

I don't understand.  It's been fine for ages, my only problem has been the WAN connection dropping each evening for weeks now.

Now all of a sudden I can't get my speed back on top, this is rubbish.  I'm paying a lot of money for a 1Mb service!  Support have said all they can do is disable interleaving, which doesn't help me.  They have suggested (again) to try another Router.

Steve/Rik, when you say "banded profile", so is that BT forcing me to down on the slower speed?  Who do I speak to, to get them to stop?  My line can happily do 2.5Mb and has done for months and months.

Steve, doubt I'll ever have low error counts or low noise, as I live in on the edge of the Exchange, in quite a leafy area.  So unless I pay £170 for an Engineer to come and check for any problems, I doubt anything will happen.

What would people suggest I ask support to do?  I want my normal speed/service back.  That's all I would like.     

I'm hoping to get a loan Router tomorrow also. 

[Rik]

I've had a word with support, Jimbo. You are, indeed, banded at 576-1Mb. For a 57db line attenuation, that's way slower than my 59db line. However, it's pointless iDNet getting the banding lifted because your d/s noise margin is 5.7db, you'd actually stand to lose speed with banding removed.

Personally, I haven't had much success with Draytek routers and rate-adaptive ADSL. I would strongly urge you to try another router and see what happens to your noise margin. If that increases significantly, the unbanding becomes a workable option. Also, try plugging the router into the test socket if you have one.

If nothing helps, IDNet can have you modulated back to ADSL Max, and you will retain both the bandwidth allowance and upstream speed.

However, I should make the point that this is a local issue, between your router and the exchange. No ISP can control that, all they can do is get an engineer out if you're willing to risk the £170.

[Jimbo]

I've had a word with support, Jimbo. You are, indeed, banded at 576-1Mb. For a 57db line attenuation, that's way slower than my 59db line. However, it's pointless iDNet getting the banding lifted because your d/s noise margin is 5.7db, you'd actually stand to lose speed with banding removed.

Personally, I haven't had much success with Draytek routers and rate-adaptive ADSL. I would strongly urge you to try another router and see what happens to your noise margin. If that increases significantly, the unbanding becomes a workable option. Also, try plugging the router into the test socket if you have one.

If nothing helps, IDNet can have you modulated back to ADSL Max, and you will retain both the bandwidth allowance and upstream speed.

However, I should make the point that this is a local issue, between your router and the exchange. No ISP can control that, all they can do is get an engineer out if you're willing to risk the £170.

Thanks for the help again Rik.

What SNR am I aiming for with this test Router?  I always thought a lower value was better, but obviously not.    If it increases, will it automatically sync higher, or like you say do I need to get in touch to have the unbanding applied?

Cheers.

[Rik]

When you're banded, BT limit the highest speed that you can connect at. Therefore, like old fixed-rate ADSL, the higher the noise margin the better. If you get another 3db, your sync speed could be increased by 500k etc. First check the noise margin, then consider whether unbanding is an option.

[Jimbo]

When you're banded, BT limit the highest speed that you can connect at. Therefore, like old fixed-rate ADSL, the higher the noise margin the better. If you get another 3db, your sync speed could be increased by 500k etc. First check the noise margin, then consider whether unbanding is an option.

OK thanks Rik.

Done some digging around about the Draytek 2710.  I've turned off QoS via Telnet and also set the max Rx/Tx rates to 100%, as by default they are only 80%.    Also, flashed the Router again with the same version firmware but different ADSL model number, as people have reported this has helped with regards to reporting CRC Errors correctly.  I wasn't the only one to report a low number (which I did recently in this topic) then to find an hour later I had 50 odd thousand errors.

So I've done another adsl reboot via Telnet, I've sync'd with a higher SNR margin (7dB) so I'll see what happens with this. 

Like I say, will get the loan Router tomorrow hopefully from a friend as well.

[Rik]

 

[Jimbo]

Well, got my friends loan Belkin 7632 ADSL2+ Wireless G Router as a loan.  It's not the newest or greatest, but will do for testing.  I think it has a Broadcom chip also.

Stats, well, pretty much identical to before, except where the DrayTek reported tens of thousands of errors, the Belkin shows 0.   



So far things seem more responsive, which is weird as I'm no faster.  Missing having all the extra features, such as Bandwidth Management and multiple SSIDs, but nevermind.

Not sure why I can't see the DS Attenuation value though???  Still only 5dB Noise Margin. 

[Jimbo]

Noise Margin now reported as 16dB.  Is that better? 

[Rik]

In your situation, Jumbo, yes.

[Jimbo]

In your situation, Jumbo, yes.

Thanks Rik.

Just sent an email to Brian on Support asking if the Banding can be removed and "normal service" resumed, as the Noise Margin is still showing as 16dB. 

[Jimbo]

I think I just jinxed it....

05/17/2010  17:24:02 ADSL Media Down !

Can you ruddy believe it!  Sync'd back now, same banded speed, noise margin still good, increased to 17dB.

I thought it might of been related to my email but I don't even think IDNet support work that quick!! 

[Rik]

No, it wouldn't.

[Jimbo]

  3Mb!  At last!  Cheers IDNet Support.

Came in to find the Router unable to connect, so gave it a reboot and that seems to have cured it.  Not sure if having the Banding removed has confused the Router, but at last I'm back to full speed ahead! 

For how long though.... we shall see! 

[Rik]

 

[Jimbo]

OK, another head scratcher.  Now that I have been unbanded, back to the original issue of this thread....

I have been on the Internet earlier and had no issues.  However, just before (about 5-10 minutes ago) I could not access any web pages again.  Router is showing as Connected and line is UP and zero errors.

I performed another ping of www.idnet.net and yet again, I am getting random packet loss.  Screenshot again below:-



This is with another Router.  What I have mentioned to support is that, whilst I have been in this banded profile, I've had no problems.  Yet the day or so after being put back onto my normal ADSL2+ service, I see this issue occuring again.  What could this be?  It seems fine again now.



So that's two Routers tested, same setup connecting to Master Socket with Filtered Faceplate and shielded ADSL cable and no new equipment in the home. 

[Steve]

I am not sure,I know certain parts of BT 21CN network is congested at times, the symptoms being increased latency and packet loss i.e L-WAT BRAS is showing increased latency between 12-1700. I can't understand your error count of zero unless the router firmware is not reporting them as every line has errors to a lesser or greater degree.

[Rik]

Given banding cured the problem, Jimbo, I do wonder if your line is not able to cope at the higher speed. Collect a series of pings at different times and let support have them.

[Jimbo]

Looks like I've been put back into a banded profile by BT.    I think I might ask Support to put me back on ADSL Max and see if that helps.  What do people think?  Worth a shot?

Thanks again!

[Rik]

Worth a shot, Jimbo. You retain the upstream speed and bandwidth allowances, but hopefully your line will become more stable again.

[Gary]

Chaps...there was me thinking it was this  http://www.thechap.net/

[Rik]

[Gary]