OK, I'm really confused now

[Rik]

Following the saga of getting my main machine repaired (four visits, new graphics card, power supply, motherboard and CPU tried before checking the memory!), I'm left puzzled. Before things went wrong, I'd not paid too much attention to the POST report, but afterwards, I noticed the RAM was reporting as PC2-5300. This seemed odd as the original RAM was rated at 1066MHz, the temporary replacement at 800MHz, and the final replacement is again 1066, marked PC2-8500 on the pack. The original BIOS settings had been lost due to clearing the CMOS.

It's an Asus P5W64 WS Pro motherboard, with an E6700 CPU and, according to Everest, the clock speed is 333MHz with bandwidth of 2666MHz. SIW, otoh, reports a clock of 266MHz, but both agree the FSB is 1066.

I've manually set the DRAM frequency as advised by Scan, the mobo was on auto settings. Their initial recommendation of 1066MHz was unstable and wouldn't boot, so I've dropped it to 800MHz, and the report at POST is PC2-6400.

Is this correct, or am I missing something?

[Glenn]

What does CPU-Z report the speed as? http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php

[Steve]

You can also check the voltages required for the ram with CPUID  as auto may be insufficient so run at that 1066 speed.

[Rik]

OK, three screens from CPU-Z

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

and...

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

You can also check the voltages required for the ram with CPUID  as auto may be insufficient so run at that 1066 speed.

Are they enough above, Steve?

[kinmel]

  MB,  CPU and Memory are all 1066FSB,  any other setting is wrong and will impair performance.

Repair is not yet complete, demand a refund.

[Rik]

It's a warranty, Alan.

Are you saying that the PC2-5300 rating I first saw is the correct one for this CPU/MOBO/RAM combination?

The Crucial site seems to suggest that:

# 240-pin DDR2 DIMM Banking:   4 (2 banks of 2)
# Chipset:   Intel 975X
# DDR2 SDRAM Frequencies:   PC2-4200 and PC2-5300
# Error Detection Support:   ECC and non-ECC
# Graphics Support:   Quad PCI Express x16
# Max Component Density:   1024
# Max Unbuffered DDR2 SDRAM:   8192MB
# Module Types Supported:   Unbuffered only
# Supported DRAM Types:   DDR2 SDRAM only

As I said before, the bus speed is being shown as 1066 by Everest & SIW.


Edit: Expansion

[Ray]

Looks OK to me, Rik, from the MB spec here

[kinmel]

It's a warranty, Alan.

Are you saying that the PC2-5300 rating I first saw is the correct one for this CPU/MOBO/RAM comibination?

If I put your MB into Crucial's memory finder it shows "Each memory slot can hold DDR2 PC2-6400,DDR2 PC2-8500,DDR2 PC2-5300 with a maximum of 2GB per slot."*

DDR2-8500's spec is 1066 FSB

Running it at 800 kills it's performance

[Rik]

Thanks, Ray. I'm still puzzled, though between the PC2 speeds (rated at 8500, running at 6400) and the DDR2 speeds given in the spec '    4 x DIMM, Max. 8 GB, DDR2 667/533 ECC,Non-ECC,Un-buffered Memory'.

If 'auto' settings yield PC2-5300, is that what I should let the system run at?

Scan seem, I think to be recommending me to overclock:

I have spoken to Reg and the Ram is the one I suggested as a replacement so the voltage will need to be manually set to 2.1 Volts

You can try dropping the CPU multiplier in the bios to 8 and set the Front Side Bus higher to 400Mhz

Provided the Ram voltage is higher this should be stable, sometimes you may have to increase the CPU voltage as well if you set this and it fails to display

I really don't want to go down that path, I don't feel knowledgeable enough on the subject.

[Rik]

If I put your MB into Crucial's memory finder it shows "Each memory slot can hold DDR2 PC2-6400,DDR2 PC2-8500,DDR2 PC2-5300 with a maximum of 2GB per slot."*

DDR2-8500's spec is 1066 FSB

Running it at 800 kills it's performance

Running it at 1066 kills the machine completely, though, Alan. Plus the voltage scan are suggesting is above the recommended voltage on that link.

But I'm still puzzled by the bit from the spec I quoted above, which suggested the mobo should have PC2-4000 or PC2-5300.

[Ray]

Yet it also says that it's got native DDR2 800 support as well, Rik, my main machine has PC2-6400(DDR2 800) modules and the image below shows the settings it's running at, it sounds as though that's what you may actually have fitted in your MC.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

We seem to have much the same timings, Ray.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Steve]

Without adding to the confusion I wouldn't have thought you'd get to 1066 on that voltage you will need to increase it towards the top end of the range I don't know what the max is on those modules but would have thought 2.0 or 2.1 would be required.

[Rik]

You just did, Steve. I'm beginning to wish I'd made notes of the BIOS settings when the machine was delivered - it used to be so simple to do in the days of LPT1 printers.

Scan have told me to go to 2.1, but the rating seems to say 2.0. OTOH, the BIOS, left to it's own 'auto detect' mode, opts for PC2-5300.

[kinmel]

The provided memory may be incompatible with the motherboard, this often happens with cheap memory modules.

Since the machine is still under warranty they are probably still being made, so ask Scan to confirm the settings used on the machine when retailed.

However, it is not your job to help carry out the repair, it should have been in perfect working order when they hand it back to you.

Having already allowed sufficient time for a competent person to carry out any possible repairs, declare the warranty repair to be unacceptable and demand a full refund within 7 days, else you will use the Small Claims Court

[Steve]

Wish I could remember how to overclock but the bus speed would have to be in the order of 355 with the FSB:Ram ratio of 2:3 to get the ram up to 533

But that would mess up the E6700 I think the default multiplier is 10 which takes us back to 266

[Rik]

It is, which is what's reported, Steve, but I've also seen the 2:3 ration reported, which takes 400 to 266.

TBH, I'm left feeling that I was sold over-specced RAM, as I ordered the machine without any over-clocking, but I just can't remember what speed was being reported before the failure.

[Rik]

The provided memory may be incompatible with the motherboard, this often happens with cheap memory modules.

Since the machine is still under warranty they are probably still being made, so ask Scan to confirm the settings used on the machine when retailed.

However, it is not your job to help carry out the repair, it should have been in perfect working order when they hand it back to you.

Having already allowed sufficient time for a competent person to carry out any possible repairs, declare the warranty repair to be unacceptable and demand a full refund within 7 days, else you will use the Small Claims Court

Scan don't even have a manual, Alan, and don't seem to have any record of over-clocking, so that leaves me wondering, as I mentioned to Steve, whether I was sold over-specced RAM in the first place. I really wish I'd gone through the BIOS and taken a note of all the settings before it failed. 

The Corsair memory is the same spec as the original, the only difference being it's now 2 x 2GB rather than 4 x 1GB.

[kinmel]

A properly set up machine runs at 1:1:1,  any other clock ratio is a bodge.

Scan don't even have a manual, Alan, and don't seem to have any record of over-clocking, so that leaves me wondering, as I mentioned to Steve, whether I was sold over-specced RAM in the first place. I really wish I'd gone through the BIOS and taken a note of all the settings before it failed. 

The Corsair memory is the same spec as the original, the only difference being it's now 2 x 2GB rather than 4 x 1GB.

If the MB, CPU and Memory are within spec then they run at a 1:1:1 ratio of 1066, anything else means a poorly constructed system.

The Crucial website identifies all their memory modules that are known to be compatible with your MB.  If they want to use Corsair then insist it is DDR2-1066 from the list on the Corsair Configurator

[Rik]

This is the unit they've supplied, Alan:

Memory Type
DDR2-1066 (Dominator-8500C5*4GB*SLI)

Size
4GB Kit (2 x 2GB)

Latency
5-5-5-15

Voltage
2.1v

Format
240-pin DIMM

Heat Spreader
Dominator

Which is on the list. I can set the DRAM frequency and voltage, but I can't see any setting to change the clock ratios, so I end up with the same values as Ray. The mobo manual doesn't seem to cover this area at all.

[Steve]

But looking at the part number above from cpuid it is  8500c5 ram should it therefore not run at 1066 if given enough power?

The ratio is set on automatic, is there not a menu listing to set the ram frequency

[Rik]

There is, Steve, but it fell over when I opted for 1066, so I dropped down to 800, which gives me my present situation. There's a separate voltage setting, which is on auto. The DRAM timing is set by SPD.

[Steve]

I would jack up the voltage until its stable ,you can always go high first and come back down and set the timings manually i.e 5-5-5-15. The northbridge voltage may need a tweak also. You have to ask why the memory failed in the first place but it did last a few years.

[Rik]

That's part of my concern, Steve, was the original memory being over stressed? TBH, I haven't yet noticed any huge difference in performance, so I would prefer stability and longevity against marginal boost. Best of all, I'd like Scan to tell me what settings they put in place.

[Ray]

May not be the problem, Rik, but could be worth checking, has he installed the modules correctly so that you are running in dual channel mode. normally if you have 4 slots and 2 memory sticks you populate slot 1 and slot 3, if he has put them in slot 1 and 2 you will be operating in single channel mode which will affect the system performance.

[Rik]

They are in slots 1 & 2, Ray, but I don't think that can be changed easily as the cooler sits across them.

[Steve]

This is the unit they've supplied, Alan:

Memory Type
DDR2-1066 (Dominator-8500C5*4GB*SLI)

Size
4GB Kit (2 x 2GB)

Latency
5-5-5-15

Voltage
2.1v

Format
240-pin DIMM

Heat Spreader
Dominator

Which is on the list. I can set the DRAM frequency and voltage, but I can't see any setting to change the clock ratios, so I end up with the same values as Ray. The mobo manual doesn't seem to cover this area at all.

The voltage quoted is 2.1 to give DDR2 1066, your image from CPUID gives a setting of 1.8 from auto.

[Rik]

May not be the problem, Rik, but could be worth checking, has he installed the modules correctly so that you are running in dual channel mode. normally if you have 4 slots and 2 memory sticks you populate slot 1 and slot 3, if he has put them in slot 1 and 2 you will be operating in single channel mode which will affect the system performance.

They are in slots 1 & 2, Ray, but I don't think that can be changed easily as the cooler sits across them.

But the POST screen reports dual channel interleaved.

[Rik]

The voltage quoted is 2.1 to give DDR2 1066, your image from CPUID gives a setting of 1.8 from auto.

So will changing the voltage be enough Steve? The timing options on the RAM spec are 5-5-5-15, but the BIOS also has a further two settings, DRAM write recovery time and read delay.

[Steve]

Read delay auto hopefully , write recovery 3-5 or auto if available.

[Rik]

Read delay does indeed have an auto setting, write recovery is 2-6, defaulting to 4.

Question. When I first tried to change the DRAM frequency, the machine just locked up as it was doing when the fault occurred, ie no boot, POST, beep etc. I power cycled it and it came back up so I could reset things. Am I likely, by playing with these settings, to get myself to the point where I can't boot the machine or get into the BIOS?

[Steve]

If its a crash free bios it should allow you to reset things . Sounds like you managed it before without resorting to clearing the CMOS.

[Rik]

 

[quandam]

Do you know what Rik, all the above is as clear as mud to me. I just bought a new PC from Aldi and, hey presto! all my problems disappeared with just one swipe of the credit card.

Aldi's last PC deal was exceptional and I can't fault it. I do wonder if too much tech info can be a danger and at times distracting. My Medion desktop is top class and working perfectly and without problem, in fact, a joy to use.

[pctech]

What brand and how much?

[Rik]

Me or Q?

[Rik]

May not be the problem, Rik, but could be worth checking, has he installed the modules correctly so that you are running in dual channel mode. normally if you have 4 slots and 2 memory sticks you populate slot 1 and slot 3, if he has put them in slot 1 and 2 you will be operating in single channel mode which will affect the system performance.

Just done a physical check, Ray. Despite the report, they are correctly located in adjacent banks. The slot numbering must be logical, not physical.

[Ray]

Just done a physical check, Ray. Despite the report, they are correctly located in adjacent banks. The slot numbering must be logical, not physical.

That board must be laid out differently then, Rik, the MSI board in my main PC and the Asus one in my other PC have to have the memory sticks  installed with an empty slot between the 2 sticks if you're only using 2.

[Glenn]

This is the unit they've supplied, Alan:

Memory Type
DDR2-1066 (Dominator-8500C5*4GB*SLI)

Size
4GB Kit (2 x 2GB)

Latency
5-5-5-15

Voltage
2.1v

Format
240-pin DIMM

Heat Spreader
Dominator

Which is on the list. I can set the DRAM frequency and voltage, but I can't see any setting to change the clock ratios, so I end up with the same values as Ray. The mobo manual doesn't seem to cover this area at all.

The supplied RAM is expecting 2.1v, hence why when it fails to boot at it's expected speed of 1066

[Rik]

So it's that simple, Glenn? Oh for some proper repairman. 

[Glenn]

Change the BIOS to 2.1v for the ram, and the speed to 1066 and it should work.

[Rik]

Plus the timings to 5-5-5-15, or is it likely to auto-detect that? My big concern is that if I screw up anything, I can't physically reset the CMOS because of my hands.

[Glenn]

It should detect the timings fine.

[Rik]

Thanks. I think I might leave this till Friday morning, as I don't want to screw up my ECG trace tomorrow.

[Steve]

What a cliff hanger

[pctech]

Me or Q?

Sorry Rik I meant Q

[Rik]

What a cliff hanger

I get really stressed out when I don't feel I know what I'm doing, Steve, and when I can't do the obvious physical thing of clearing the CMOS if it all goes wrong. It might be interesting to see an ECG of that, but I'm not sure I want my treatment to be based on it.

I suppose I could leave it to just before Tuesday's echo-cardiogram, but I have a feeling they'd take one look at the pulse rate and re-admit me.

Alan's right, of course, I shouldn't have been left to sort this out.

[Rik]

Sorry Rik I meant Q

I thought you probably did, but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

[Glenn]

It would be handy if they could just press a button, or move a jumper, to restore your default settings

[Rik]

They can, Glenn, his name is Reg.

[Glenn]

 

I did mean you personally though.

[Rik]

 

I can do it, I just need to believe I can.

[Steve]

I appreciate Rik that these matters are best left until an appropriate moment and tonight and tomorrow are not the time to be left with a duff machine

[Gary]

Some mobos when set on auto Rik may not supply the right settings, I had to adjust mine on my last windows machines, also when using just two sticks of Ram it went into slot 1 and slot 3 so there was a gap between them, this was to run in dual channel mode, modern Ram of good quality is capable of being over clocked and not having issues, if the timings are not as they should be I would be inclined to follow the advice and change them and increase the voltage. I would check with those ram slots though thats very odd. Dual channel is normally 1-3 2-4 in that order with matched pairs.

[Rik]

The slots are definitely correct, Gary, the yellow one from each bank, which is A1/B1 according to the manual.