Noise Problems

[psp83]

Hi..

Just some advice needed..
My noise margin have been lower than usual since migrating to IDnet.

Here's what i used to get with Tiscali.


And now heres what i'm getting with IDnet.


Miriam said that my migration was fully completed as off today as some work had to be finished manually so could this be caused by the 10 day training period? as i can only download at 2mb..

-Paul

[wrtpeeps]

ok i am no expert but i think your noise margin is supposed to be between 6 and 12.  So therefore you used to have a problemon tiscali but no longer on idnet.

I think thats how it goes..

[Lance]

If you used to have a MAX adsl package with Tiscali, then your 10 day training period would have been completed with them. The purpose of the training period is to set some error rates for your line. Your profile is constantly updating itself, normally aiming for the best sync available on a noise margin of 6db. Changes in profile downwards normally take a few hours, while changes upwards three days.

What I'm a little confused by is why your sync with Tiscali wasn't higher, when you clearly had plenty of noise margin left to play with. 

I agree with wrtpeeps in that you have a problem somewhere with your line, which is causing increased noise and therefore lowering your sync. Have you changed any of your equipment such as routers or filters? Have you made sure that everything connected to the phone line does so through a filter?

It may be worth trying, if you have an NTE5 type master socket (the type where the bottom third comes off, rather than the whole thing) trying the test socket behind the bottom third faceplate. When plugged into this, all of your internal wiring is disconnected so the only thing on the line is your router. If you see your noise margin increase then you know you have a problem with either your internal wiring, or something connected to it.

Hope this helps.

Lance

[psp83]

BT set my noise margin to 15 at my request for a more stable line since i had a rubbish USB modem and i now have a good router.. But then BT found a fault at the exchange and fixed it, which the fault was causing the un stable connection. My tiscali sync was fine and never caused me a problem, I only moved from tiscali because off the slow speeds 24/7.

So i dont understand why my sync is lower and my noise is lower. it doesn't make sense.. This problem started from last night when i got disconnected for no reason and couldn't connect for over 30mins.

All the equipment is the same and hasn't changed.

I dont have that kind off master socket, i have the older style one that doesn't have a test socket. So maybe there's still a problem at the exchange?

[Lance]

So i dont understand why my sync is lower and my noise is lower. it doesn't make sense..

It doesn't to me either. The only other thing I can think of is that when BT migrated you, they cocked something up somewhere?

It might just be worth trying the test socket to see what your stats are from there. If they are the same it rules out internal stuff and I would suggest giving support a call so they can run some tests on your line and advise further.

Sorry I can't be of any more help.

EDIT: Just seen your edit! Prehaps there is a problem at the exchange, as you say I would give support a call to see what they say!

ANOTHER EDIT: You could try and see what your stats are with nothing else plugged in anywhere, that should be nearly as good as using a test socket.

[psp83]

I just unplugged the phone. now i only have a filter and lead to my router. no change in stats.

I'm just writing an email to support that says everything i've said in this forum and more. Plus i'll give them a call sometime tomorrow.

It does seem like BT cocked up again.

I'm monitoring my noise margin and will post the results here later tonight, But the noise margin is up and down all the time which i think, points to something not being right at the excahnge or with my line.

I get no luck with ISPs/BT lol 

[psp83]

Just lost sync, Got my usual 15 margin back and it dropped down to 8 within seconds..

Do you reckon theres a fault lance? As i have no idea what the training period can cause to happen.

[MoHux]

I have no knowledge of the Tiscali packages, but going by the upload speed you had I would think it possible you were on a business type one.
Very often that type of package is given a higher priority than a domestic one, and also you having requested a high SNR, both these things helped decide the final figures.
Also if it was a fixed speed account the SNR is always higher than on Max as it does not have to be rate adaptive.
Which is why the SNR varies continually on Max as line conditions change.

Your download attenuation figure is on the high side at 40db.  Some attention to your line may prove fruitfull.  e.g. Have you disconnected the ring wire at all sockets?  This removes a lot of R.F. noise and improves your figures/speed.  If you need help to improve your wiring you can find it in the stickies via the index to the forum.
Finally, if you are still in the training period things should improve over time on their own.

HTH.  Good Luck.


Edit: You posted while I typed ........... Having read your last two posts I think a good read of the stickies to see what to expect during the training period would help to put your mind at rest.

[psp83]

attention only went high since i went onto max. when i was on fixed 2mb my attention was in the 20's and noise margin was in the high 30's

All wiring has been taken care off. done that when i first went to Max.

I just lost sync 4 times in a row then lost connection totally.. 

Reminds me off the problem i had on tiscali when there was a fault at the exchange.

[Lance]

As I said earlier, you only have one training period the first time you go on to MAX. All this period does is set some error rates for your line. These are not affected when you move ISPs, however you can request for your training period to be restarted.

My guess is that most likely there is a fault, but I am no expert so recommend that you get the views from CS. Also, CS can arrange for a ADSL trained engineer to visit, rather than voice trained.

[psp83]

Hmm, Miriam said that the 10 day training period would be over by 1st april so i dont know now, i'm even more confused lol..

[Lance]

I'm also confused! Maybe it was requested for your line to complete the training period again. Or maybe Miriam didn't realise you had already been on max at Tiscali (if I say that any more I'll get told off for foul language!).

Or possibly the processes have changed and now on migrations you do recommence a training period.

[psp83]

Hehe yeh the T word is swearing 

Here's my noise margin results.


Compare that with what i used to get, its a big difference.

[Lance]

That does seem pretty unstable! I don't think I can help any more with this, my knowledge (and me) is exhausted! Sorry!

[psp83]

No prob. i just wanted to know what other people thought aswell..

And i know simon looks here so he might see it
Hopefully support wont mind reading my long email i've just sent to them 

Well, thanks for your help/advice/thoughts. I'm going to bed now as its been a horrible day today and tomorrow won't be much better at work 

Nite all.

[Lance]

I've got tomorrow off so i'm ok!

Night!

[Rik]

I can't add much to what's already been said. It is possible to get a new training period, but it's unusual. Were you on an unbundled line with Tiscali, psp?

That noise margin fluctuation suggests a large amount of pickup, probably in your internal wiring, but possibly between you and the exchange. As you can't test at a master socket, it will be next to impossible to decide which. Try the bell wire removal, if that doesn't help things, I would suggest a BT visit, arranged by IDNet (that ensures the engineer is ADSL-trained). My guess is that the first thing he will do is fit an NTE5, which won't cost you anything. He'll then test with his equipment at the test socket. If that's OK, but the signal drops once he puts the faceplate back on (ie connects your internal wiring) you should be offered two choices: Have your internal wiring disconnected (free) or have your internal wiring sorted (chargeable, it cost me £60).

If you do get an engineer out, ply him with drinks, biscuits and bacon butties, it can make a world of difference to what you get done and how much it costs!

[Lance]

Were you on an unbundled line with Tiscali, psp?

I'm guessing not because I think I remember seeing that he had previously asked BT to up his noise margin to 15db. Surely it would be BT if it was a unbundled line?

If you do get an engineer out, ply him with drinks, biscuits and bacon butties, it can make a world of difference to what you get done and how much it costs!

lol

[psp83]

I was on Tiscali Datasream.

The noise margin has seem'd to settle down now, was a steady 17 all night from midnight. I rebooted the router at 8am and got a new sync of 7108 kbps with a 12 noise margin.

So maybe last night the equipment at the exchange ws testing the line. We will see this afternoon/tonight when the problems start.

I will give support a call today to follow up on my email to them last night and see what they say. If i get them to get BT out to change the faceplate will i get charged if theres not a fault? or is upgrading the master socket free?

-Paul

[Lance]

Thats a much better sync, but seeing it is much higher than mine, I'm afraid I can't help you anymore! lol

If BT do come out and find no fault, you will get charged. Recently, someelse on here asked BT how much to chnge the master socket and they were given £130 for the first hour of work (in which it should be completed!).

I would certainly wait until tonight to see what happens before calling out BT and risking a charge.

[Rik]

Hi Paul

If you were on Datastream, it would explain the training period, so we can stop worrying about that now.

From what you say, there's been sufficient instability on the line for your target noise margin to be raised. It would be worth getting that sorted asap. If BT come out to an ADSL fault, they will test at the exchange pair, with your wiring disconnected. Most engineers will fit an NTE5 free of charge at this point, as it makes it easier for them. If the signal is OK, then they will re-connect your wiring. If that shows a problem, you will be given the two choices I outlined, a free disconnection of the internal wiring, or a charged fix to the problem.

[psp83]

Well i spoke to soon, Just checked my router stats from work and i have been re-sync'd at a lower speed and margin is erratic again! Also IDnet support has checked the line and states i have had 5 drops in connection already today

They also asked to plug the router straight into the master socket. which it is. My setup is. Master socket > filter > phone connected to the phone part of the filter and router connected to the dsl part.

Been asked to change the filter. The filter is less than a year old and my connection was fine upto the migration, So this points to a problem with BT.

[Rik]

The problem with connecting to the master socket is that the rest of the wiring is still hanging off it, acting as an aerial for all the electrical noise around. Without an NTE5 and test socket, you can't isolate whether the problem is your internal wiring or the exchange connection.

However, testing in the way that has been suggested is the next best thing. It's also important to eliminate your filter(s) from the equation, there's a huge range of qualities out there, personally, I recommend ADSL Nation's xf-1e. For me, they did make a difference.

What needs to be sorted in the next few days is stability. Until that's achieved, noise and signal are, effectively by-standers. Every time your line re-syncs there's a chance that the BT software will push the profile lower. It's unhelpful to compare the service with your previous one as they are two different products, which has nothing to do with te ISPs, but BT. One thing I can assure you of is that, with IDNet on your case, you'll get the best support there is.

Ultimately, you may need an engineer visit, but the risk with that is that it may involve you in a bill, if no external fault is found, but one is found with your internal wiring, even if BT installed it.

[psp83]

I've got 5 different filters i can try, there all new. I tend to change filters once a year aswell as internal cable just to make sure nothing will go wrong my end.

At the moment my profile is stuck on 2mb and has been for 2 days. Once this problem is sorted out, i will ask IDnet to contact BT so i can restart my training period so i can get the best MSR.

if there is a fault. could that also be the reason why i'm getting high pings?

Well i will be leaving my laptop on all weekend to monitor the noise and sync rates and will send IDnet a chart showing the results so they can decide what happens next.

[Rik]

I've got 5 different filters i can try, there all new. I tend to change filters once a year aswell as internal cable just to make sure nothing will go wrong my end.

Now I'm from the "if it ain't broke..." school of thought myself. If things are performing I don't change components as it means I've changed one of the possible variables.

At the moment my profile is stuck on 2mb and has been for 2 days. Once this problem is sorted out, i will ask IDnet to contact BT so i can restart my training period so i can get the best MSR.

The profile will stay at 2Mbps until you have had three days of stable, higher speed, connection. It's just the way that BT works, and no ISP can change that. During the training period, iirc, they can't even raise a fault with BT, except no sync at all.

if there is a fault. could that also be the reason why i'm getting high pings?

It might affect pings if the line is noisy and it's causing re-transmits. What sort of values do you get to the BBC? You may also now have interleaving on, which will add about 20ms to ping times.

Well i will be leaving my laptop on all weekend to monitor the noise and sync rates and will send IDnet a chart showing the results so they can decide what happens next.

That's probably several charts from the sound of it.

[psp83]

IDnet support has passed this onto BT Whole Sales. So fingers crossed, it'll be sorted soon.

And maybe i can become a happy customer and post some good news on here lol :p

[Rik]

Toes crossed for you, Paul.

[psp83]

Only toes? i want fingers crossed aswell

You might find it abit harder to type thou

[Rik]

I just cross my eyes - it has the same effect.

[psp83]

Well ever since i phoned support and they said they would get BT Whole Sales. My connection was more stable last night with just a few high movements in the noise margin.

The router shows i lost connection for 10mins at 6:14am but then reconnected after 10mins with the same sync rate!

How quick does BT Whole Sales respond to request from SP's? And do you think its likely down to them that my connection is more stable now than last night?

[Rik]

I suspect it depends on what action needs to be take as to how fast BTw can respond. If it's a keyboard task, it is often done very quickly, at other times it requires getting someone out to the exchange...

I lost sync this morning due to a huge burst of noise at 10:39. Re-connected at a very low sync speed, then after about 10 minutes I noticed my noise margin had shot up to 12db, so re-booted the router and got back to my normal sync range. Luckily, my profile didn't drop.

[psp83]

What noise+sync do you normally get then rik?

Sync:


Noise:


As you can see in the images, my stable connection is now back all day noise was around 15 and has only dropped by around 2 in the evening, which is normal for my line.

Just have to wait for my profile to move of 2mb now.

How quick do profiles go up? and do they go up in stages day by day?

[Lance]

Profile movements up take effect on the fourth day ie after 3 full days. Movements down take a few hours.

As far as I know there is no stepped increase, unfortunately.

If your line only drops by 2db in the evening I would request to have the line's target noise margin decreased down to 6. That way you will see you sync go even higher!

[psp83]

My profile was on 2000 kbps for a few days, i just checked now and its on 3500 kbps.. Will this increase more since i'm sync'd at 6560 kbps?

[Rik]

It may do. I'd be curious to know why it only increased to 3500 given your sync. It suggests to me that there was a lower sync event in there somewhere.

I sync at in the 3100-3300 range normally, so attract a profile of 2500 most of the time, 3000 if I'm lucky (although currently, I have a stuck profile at 3000). Noise margin is a nominal 9db, though I expect to see temporary drops of up to 7db at times.

[psp83]

If its not increased by monday before i go to work then i'll give support a call to see if they can get BT to give it a nudge!

If your line only drops by 2db in the evening I would request to have the line's target noise margin decreased down to 6. That way you will see you sync go even higher!

I asked support when my migration was completed if they could contact BT to get my noise margin reset to 9db and explained why it was increased in the first place and they said i have to wait till the 10 days.. but surely this would affect my MSR ? and when i do get BT to drop it down i will have to start my training period again so i can get a better MSR as i was told once your MSR is set, it hardly ever moves?

[Rik]

MSR is really a diversion, it doesn't affect the speed you can achieve, that's controlled by your profile, which will be monitored and adjusted continuously by the DLM software.

The only significant effect of MSR is that it determines FTR. Changing your noise margin does not mean having to go through another training period.