50% Sync Rate Drop

[netgem21]

Hi!  

Over the past few days, my internet speed has been slower than usual and today I checked the router stats and saw that I'm getting a sync rate of 3744kbps. I'm usually at 8128kbps. Upload sync rate is 100% normal at 448kbps.

I've spoken to IDNet support and I've rebooted the router, tested over ethernet and used the test socket. Additionally, the line is used exclusively for broadband on one socket, so there's no additional devices such as phones/Sky boxes.

They say that it's a problem with my router/microfilter, which I find hard to believe as speeds have been consistently high for years with few issues.

Hope you can help! I've attached a copy of my router's statistics incase that helps.

Thanks!  

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Glenn]

Filters do degrade, if you have another or can borrow one, swap it and give it a try.

[Lance]

And its not uncommon for routers to fail after a year or so - try borrowing one to test that if a different filter doesn't help.

[MisterW]

Additionally, the line is used exclusively for broadband on one socket, so there's no additional devices such as phones/Sky boxes.

If there are no phones plugged in then you don't actually need a filter, although you will need something to convert from the RJ11 plug on the router cable to a BT plug to fit the BT socket. The filter only prevents the high frequency ADSL signals getting to the phone port, the ADSL port is just a pass-through connection. Routers have inbuilt filter circuitry to prevent the low frequency POTS ( phone ) signal from interfering with the ADSL.

[netgem21]

If there are no phones plugged in then you don't actually need a filter, although you will need something to convert from the RJ11 plug on the router cable to a BT plug to fit the BT socket. The filter only prevents the high frequency ADSL signals getting to the phone port, the ADSL port is just a pass-through connection. Routers have inbuilt filter circuitry to prevent the low frequency POTS ( phone ) signal from interfering with the ADSL.

Do you think I might get better performance without the microfilter?

[netgem21]

By the way, do my router's statistics look alright? Additionally, here is a recent speed test. As you can see, compared to the speed test in my signature, my line is capable of very high speeds.

[Steve]

The router stats are not alright,you should be near a full sync with that downstream attenuation. I'm not sure what the margin is its probably high and there is a lot of 'noise' around

[Colin Burns]

has the router been rebooted since the sync speed fell over

[netgem21]

has the router been rebooted since the sync speed fell over

Yes, I've rebooted many times. What's the next step to resolve this issue?

[Steve]

Have you tried a different router and filter?

[netgem21]

Have you tried a different router and filter?

I've just tried a different filter - same result. I don't own a second router.

[Steve]

Can you borrow one? Sometimes IDNet have a loan one around  I don't see any point buying a new one for it to make no difference but I'm fairly sure there is a fault somewhere and until you rule out the router a visit from BT could prove costly.

[mrapoc]

I too have pretty good line stats and up until recently had full sync, now it has dropped to about 50% too

?

[netgem21]

I too have pretty good line stats and up until recently had full sync, now it has dropped to about 50% too

?

Interesting... so it may be IDNet's problem after all then?! 

[Steve]

Unfortunately the only controller of sync rate for non LLU providers is BT.

[netgem21]

Unfortunately the only controller of sync rate for non LLU providers is BT.

Should I talk to them? Can they inform me if there is a line/exchange fault?

[Steve]

BTW or Openreach will under the direction of your ISP check your phone line for broadband faults. If no fault is found using their equipment between the test socket and the exchange you will be charged a fee ( it used to be £170 but may be more) That's why it's essential to rule out any possible faults your side of the test socket. IDNet can see how your line is performing and they have given their opinion. I think to be fair to them if they thought there was a line fault they would have discussed a BT engineers visit with you.

[klipp]

I had the same problem as you.  My sync went from 4000kbps to 2000kbps.  Support said it's line degradation and nothing can be done about it.  I still suffer frequent connection drops every day.  My internet is completely unstable and only runs at half the speed it used to.  I've given up caring now because it was so frustrating trying to get help and getting nowhere.

[netgem21]

I had the same problem as you.  My sync went from 4000kbps to 2000kbps.  Support said it's line degradation and nothing can be done about it.  I still suffer frequent connection drops every day.  My internet is completely unstable and only runs at half the speed it used to.  I've given up caring now because it was so frustrating trying to get help and getting nowhere.

I don't understand why nothing can be done about line degradation. I didn't degrade it, did I? - for the record, my situation has not been confirmed to be line degradation. Also, I don't see how it can be since the sync rate dropped from 8128 to 3000 in a matter of minutes, not over time.

IDNet haven't been helpful with this. I've been told to 'sort it out myself' and basically not bother them about it as it's not their problem.

[klipp]

With an Attenuation of 29db I'd suggest your problem is not degradation.  For example mine has jumped to 59db!!!  Hence the cut in speed and frequent line drops.  Your stats are pretty decent (I'd love 29db and 2db noise!!!) you should be getting 8mb really.  Try pressing the hidden reset button on the back of the router so it does a full restart, and also power down the router for an hour to ensure your session to your exchange is fully terminated.

[Niall]

IDNet haven't been helpful with this. I've been told to 'sort it out myself' and basically not bother them about it as it's not their problem.

I'll be amazed if support actually said that. They're very helpful and if it's not a problem they can fix, ie it's at your end they'll tell you what to try to resolve it. If it comes back as a line fault they always report it to BT (in my experience, via my sisters once wonky line).

[Steve]

I believe he was advised by support to swap the router and filter but unfortunately he can manage the second item but not the first. Hence the impasse.

[netgem21]

With an Attenuation of 29db I'd suggest your problem is not degradation.  For example mine has jumped to 59db!!!  Hence the cut in speed and frequent line drops.  Your stats are pretty decent (I'd love 29db and 2db noise!!!) you should be getting 8mb really.  Try pressing the hidden reset button on the back of the router so it does a full restart, and also power down the router for an hour to ensure your session to your exchange is fully terminated.

Yeah, this time last week I was getting consistent speeds reflecting the speed test in my signature. This week? About 2meg. I've done loads of reboots, not tried a reset though. I'll also power the router down overnight - thanks for the advice!

[netgem21]

I'll be amazed if support actually said that. They're very helpful and if it's not a problem they can fix, ie it's at your end they'll tell you what to try to resolve it. If it comes back as a line fault they always report it to BT (in my experience, via my sisters once wonky line).

I believe he was advised by support to swap the router and filter but unfortunately he can manage the second item but not the first. Hence the impasse.

I had to make three separate calls, and I still haven't received a definitive answer. First call, I was told that there were no line faults and was instructed to reboot the router, and the call ended. Second call, I was told to reboot it again and try a different microfilter. Third call, I was basically told that it was a problem at their end and therefore they couldn't help me.

[netgem21]

OK, something strange has just happened. I think I might be in a loss of service situation. Just checked the IDNet service updates RSS feed and saw a 'BT Major Service Outage' - LEEDS ATM NODE 2 : PARTIAL LOSS OF SERVICE. I saw this item before, but disregarded it as I live about as far away from Leeds as you can imagine. However, I just had a quick look, and for some reason, my dialling code is in the list. Could this be why?

[Technical Ben]

I might be able to lend a router...

[Rik]

I had to make three separate calls, and I still haven't received a definitive answer. First call, I was told that there were no line faults and was instructed to reboot the router, and the call ended. Second call, I was told to reboot it again and try a different microfilter. Third call, I was basically told that it was a problem at their end and therefore they couldn't help me.

I understand you've been asked to carry out some diagnostics, ie different filter, different router and connect to the test socket. Without these being done, there's little IDNet can do to help you except get a BT engineer out, which carries a very real risk of a £160+ charge if no fault is found. Your line has a 6db noise margin and interleaving off, so there are no 'switches to throw' that will allow IDNet to improve the speed.

[netgem21]

I understand you've been asked to carry out some diagnostics, ie different filter, different router and connect to the test socket. Without these being done, there's little IDNet can do to help you except get a BT engineer out, which carries a very real risk of a £160+ charge if no fault is found. Your line has a 6db noise margin and interleaving off, so there are no 'switches to throw' that will allow IDNet to improve the speed.

I've done all the diagnostics you've mentioned apart from testing another router, as I don't have one, however I don't suspect it's the problem, as this drop in sync happened instantly, and no other problems with the router are apparent. Can you tell me what my noise margin means? Are the statistics good? Also, support have just informed me that there are 'upstream errors on my circuit'. Also, as I said earlier, could the Leeds outage be the cause of this? Cheers  

[netgem21]

Here are some later results performed. First image is via the normal socket, second is via the test socket.



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[Rik]

Well, the test socket is giving slightly better results, which suggests there's room for improvement in your internal wiring. The error count on the upstream side will slow upstream traffic, but should have too much effect otherwise.

Routers fail, I've had a couple go in the past two years - router power supplies also fail. Unless you eliminate the router from the equation, the only option IDNet would have is to send a BT engineer out with the strong chance that you will be billed. The Leeds outage should not be the cause of your problem. If you run a BT speed test, then you will get an acceptable range of speeds for your connection. If your current speeds are within that range, BT will claim the line is working in spec.

[netgem21]

Well, the test socket is giving slightly better results, which suggests there's room for improvement in your internal wiring. The error count on the upstream side will slow upstream traffic, but should have too much effect otherwise.

Routers fail, I've had a couple go in the past two years - router power supplies also fail. Unless you eliminate the router from the equation, the only option IDNet would have is to send a BT engineer out with the strong chance that you will be billed. The Leeds outage should not be the cause of your problem. If you run a BT speed test, then you will get an acceptable range of speeds for your connection. If your current speeds are within that range, BT will claim the line is working in spec.

Well 2mbps is not an acceptable speed for my connection. In addition, my upstream speed has not been affected, only downstream.

[Rik]

You can say that, but if BT decide it's acceptable, it is acceptable. Do a BT test and post the results here.

[netgem21]

You can say that, but if BT decide it's acceptable, it is acceptable. Do a BT test and post the results here.

I'm sorry, but I rely on my broadband speed heavily, and if it takes me 4x longer to do the things that I need to do, then it is by definition, unacceptable. Maybe it's acceptable for BT, but it isn't for me. I just ran a BT Speed Test and got this message: "The Performance Tester is currently unable to run a speed test for your broadband connection. Please try again shortly, however if this problem persists, raise the issue with your service provider."

To reiterate, here's my most recent Speed test that I performed just now. Please compare with the result in my signature representing my average speed.

[Rik]

We can't help you any further. To do so, we would need a BT speed test, which tells us more about your connection than any other test site, and we need you to try a different router to eliminate the possibility that the fault lays there. All I can suggest is that you ask IDNet to get a BT engineer out, accepting that it may cost your £160+ if it turns out to be a 'no fault found' visit.

I know it's frustrating to lose speed, I was running at 1/3rd of normal at the beginning of the year, and for 10 days had no connection at all as BT were adamant that all was well even though I didn't have a router connected to the line. Eventually they found the line card was faulty. I moved to my backup line, so it wasn't a disaster, maybe you could consider a second line if your service is that critical to you?

[netgem21]

We can't help you any further. To do so, we would need a BT speed test, which tells us more about your connection than any other test site, and we need you to try a different router to eliminate the possibility that the fault lays there. All I can suggest is that you ask IDNet to get a BT engineer out, accepting that it may cost your £160+ if it turns out to be a 'no fault found' visit.

I know it's frustrating to lose speed, I was running at 1/3rd of normal at the beginning of the year, and for 10 days had no connection at all as BT were adamant that all was well even though I didn't have a router connected to the line. Eventually they found the line card was faulty. I moved to my backup line, so it wasn't a disaster, maybe you could consider a second line if your service is that critical to you?

Thanks Rik, I'll keep trying the BT Test, and for the record, this is a second line! 

[Rik]

Does the second line have BB on it?

[netgem21]

Does the second line have BB on it?

First line is for voice, second line is for data.

[Rik]

So no way of switching lines to test, that's a shame.

[netgem21]

So no way of switching lines to test, that's a shame.

Yeah, I don't think I can unless I activate the other line for ADSL which is about £40. Are there any line quality tests I can perform, that you can think of?

[netgem21]

OK, this is getting strange now. BT Availability Checker say that the maximum estimated speed of my line is 2.5Mbit - i.e. what I'm getting. I was getting 8Mbit last week. What the hell has happened?!

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[netgem21]

Here are the results of the BT Speed Test. I don't like the look of the line profile...

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[Rik]

OK, this is getting strange now. BT Availability Checker say that the maximum estimated speed of my line is 2.5Mbit - i.e. what I'm getting. I was getting 8Mbit last week. What the hell has happened?!

Sounds like it's responding to the lower sync speed. We really do need a BT speed test and an alternative router, your upstream error count could be explained by a dodgy router.

[netgem21]

Sounds like it's responding to the lower sync speed. We really do need a BT speed test and an alternative router, your upstream error count could be explained by a dodgy router.

Results just came through:


[attachment deleted by admin]

[netgem21]

Sounds like it's responding to the lower sync speed. We really do need a BT speed test and an alternative router, your upstream error count could be explained by a dodgy router.

Here's the availability checker for my other line, which looks great. I should add that both of these lines are in the same house and connected to the same exchange.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Glenn]

I might be able to lend a router...

That's a very kind offer Ben.

[Rik]

Results just came through:

Mmm. The profile is 500k slow for the sync speed, but that's the least of your troubles. BT consider 600kbps acceptable on the line. All you can do now is try a different router, an engineer visit would result in a charge.

Do you have any LLU operators in your exchange?

[Rik]

Here's the availability checker for my other line, which looks great. I should add that both of these lines are in the same house and connected to the same exchange.

Trouble is, it means nothing - it's an estimate. It's possible, though, that the line takes a different route to the exchange or is on a better pair.

[netgem21]

Mmm. The profile is 500k slow for the sync speed, but that's the least of your troubles. BT consider 600kbps acceptable on the line. All you can do now is try a different router, an engineer visit would result in a charge.

Do you have any LLU operators in your exchange?

OK, I guess I'll have to buy a router then 

So, just to check, even if they find an exchange fault like a faulty line card or something, even though I'm receiving an 'acceptable speed', they're still going to charge me?!

No for LLU, I live in the middle of nowhere - we only got ADSLMax recently, but it's usually very fast!

Thanks again everyone! 

[netgem21]

I might be able to lend a router...

Thank you for your very kind offer Ben, it's much appreciated, but please don't worry about it - I don't want to trouble anyone else with this!! 

[Rik]

If they find a fault on their side of the test socket, eg a line card, there will be no charge. If, otoh, the engineer turns up, syncs at an acceptable speed and can't see a fault, there will. BT have us both ways.

[MisterW]

OK, this is getting strange now. BT Availability Checker say that the maximum estimated speed of my line is 2.5Mbit - i.e. what I'm getting. I was getting 8Mbit last week. What the hell has happened?!

I've seen something like that before. I believe that the availability checker works in 2 ways to get an estimate of line speed , if the line doesnt have broadband active it bases the estimate on either distance or attenuation from a line test, if broadband is active then it uses the currently achievable speed.

I would have thought that in your case if you have previously been synching continuously at 8128k then your current speed will be well below the FTH ( Fault Threshold ) for your line, and therefore BT must accept ( once you've eliminated all your wiring and equipment ) that its a fault.

[Rik]

The problem is that BT can redefine the FTR at any time, and do. The most important thing for Netgem is to eliminate his equipment from the equation. Then, it should be safe to chuck it at BT without a risk of charges.

[MisterW]

The problem is that BT can redefine the FTR at any time, and do

I thought it was set during the 'training period' and unless there has been an SNR reset to restart the training ( which there doesn't appear to have been here ) it should not be reset.

[netgem21]

Just thinking, shouldn't my noise margin for upload be 6db? Seems a bit high at the moment...

[Rik]

I thought it was set during the 'training period' and unless there has been an SNR reset to restart the training ( which there doesn't appear to have been here ) it should not be reset.

I've met cases where they have simply decided that the line has degraded and so adjust the FTR, but you're right, it should only happen after a new training period.

[Rik]

Just thinking, shouldn't my noise margin for upload be 6db? Seems a bit high at the moment...

No, it will depend on the line attenuation. Only with ADSL2+ does the u/s margin have a target of 6db.

[netgem21]

I've just done a factory reset of the router - here are the new statistics.



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[Rik]

Can you check to see if there's a firmware upgrade available?

[netgem21]

Can you check to see if there's a firmware upgrade available?

Yep, it's the Netgear DG834v1 running the latest firmware. Not sure if it can use firmware for the v2/v3/v4 models, though...

[Lance]

Yep, it's the Netgear DG834v1 running the latest firmware. Not sure if it can use firmware for the v2/v3/v4 models, though...

That certainly is an old router. I would recommend getting another one even if only to hold as a spare if you rely on your internet.

[netgem21]

That certainly is an old router. I would recommend getting another one even if only to hold as a spare if you rely on your internet.

Yeah, I suppose 

Anyway, I'm getting a loan router from a friend tomorrow, so I'll report back with the results. As I'll only have it for a short amount of time, what sort of tests should I perform? Finally, can anyone recommend a decent router if it turns out I need to replace mine? I'm looking for one with a clean/well designed control panel, gigabit ethernet and preferably not wireless, as I'm using a Time Capsule for that.

Once again, many thanks to all of you for your help with this!!!

[Steve]

We need the router stats as soon as you connect to the test socket plus a BT speedtest if poss

[netgem21]

We need the router stats as soon as you connect to the test socket plus a BT speedtest if poss

No problem - thanks again!  

[netgem21]

OK, second router just arrived. Testing it now. It's a Netgear DG834PN

[netgem21]

Here are the results. Doesn't seem that different to my DG834.



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[Steve]

I think you should contact support again since you've now tried a new filter and router,the slow speed is down to the profile but you've had a signifcant line degradation

[Rik]

Though the d/s sync is some 20% better.

[netgem21]

So what are the next steps?

[Rik]

Let support have the figures and BT result from the new router (they were at the test socket I take it?).

[netgem21]

Let support have the figures and BT result from the new router.

They have, but I'm just getting automated responses. They've recommended that I do not get an engineer callout, so I'm assuming they want me to live with 2mbps. I'm getting far better support on here, to be honest. Another option is killing the ADSL line and migrating the IDNet account to our other 'voice' line. I can't see any other options besides these.

EDIT: Yep, they're from the test socket.

[Rik]

I don't think it's fair to call it an automated response. Your speed will rise, providing you remain in sync, to 4Mbps over the next 72 hours. To get back to your original 6.5Mbps may not be possible. IDNet can and will get an engineer out, but there's a very high likelihood that BT will raise a charge, which is why they are not recommending it. Some engineers are better than others, so you might or might not see an improvement as a result. If the engineer thinks the line has degraded, he will simply start the 10-day training over again, which will lower your fault threshold level, making it impossible to raise the speed as a fault in the future - iow, BT tend to move the goal posts in these cases.

Your choice is, essentially, have an engineer out, hope that he can do something, but be prepared to pay £160+ if he decides there's no fault, live with the speed once the profile has settled or move the service to your other line, with no guarantee that you will get the speed that the BT checker reports.

The only other diagnostic I can suggest is to use a battery-powered MW radio, de-tune it so you only have white noise, then follow the path of your phone wiring from entry point to router and see if the noise level increases anywhere. If it does, that's where the interference is.

[netgem21]

I don't think it's fair to call it an automated response. Your speed will rise, providing you remain in sync, to 4Mbps over the next 72 hours. To get back to your original 6.5Mbps may not be possible. IDNet can and will get an engineer out, but there's a very high likelihood that BT will raise a charge, which is why they are not recommending it. Some engineers are better than others, so you might or might not see an improvement as a result. If the engineer thinks the line has degraded, he will simply start the 10-day training over again, which will lower your fault threshold level, making it impossible to raise the speed as a fault in the future - iow, BT tend to move the goal posts in these cases.

Your choice is, essentially, have an engineer out, hope that he can do something, but be prepared to pay £160+ if he decides there's no fault, live with the speed once the profile has settled or move the service to your other line, with no guarantee that you will get the speed that the BT checker reports.

The only other diagnostic I can suggest is to use a battery-powered MW radio, de-tune it so you only have white noise, then follow the path of your phone wiring from entry point to router and see if the noise level increases anywhere. If it does, that's where the interference is.

Thank you for your response, but the responses I was receiving were not directly answering my queries. I just don't understand how this severe drop in speed can occur in such a short space of time with no apparent change in line quality, according to router statistics.

[Rik]

One day I had a connection, the next day I didn't. Something in my internal wiring went out of tolerance and it stopped ADSL in its tracks. The problem is that we are using a Victorian infrastructure to do something it was never meant to. BT only guarantee a 28.8k data service. It's a hard truth but, while BT are essentially the monopoly carrier, they can do what they like, and ISPs can do little about it.

[klipp]

I feel your pain netgem and fully understand your frustration.

[netgem21]

I feel your pain netgem and fully understand your frustration.

Thanks mate!

I think we're gonna get an engineer out, get his opinion, and probably kill the line.

All the support for this issue has come exclusively from this community right here, and I thank you all for your help.

I'll keep you updated!

[netgem21]

Just one more thing...

If I do switch over to the other line, obviously it's full of extensions and devices, so even with microfilters, I'd imagine it'd be quite noisy. In addition, it's an older line (by about 15-20 years) so do you think I'd lose any reliability?

Thanks

[Rik]

Extensions are bad news, otherwise it's impossible to know until it's activated.

[Steve]

An ADSLNation NTE5 faceplate is very good at isolating voice and broadband at the master socket,plus also check no ring wire is present. Obviously your taking a gamble with no guarantee of success, if it's noise or interference it could well affect both lines equally, if one line has physically degraded more than the other you could well be lucky.

[netgem21]

An ADSLNation NTE5 faceplate is very good at isolating voice and broadband at the master socket,plus also check no ring wire is present. Obviously your taking a gamble with no guarantee of success, if it's noise or interference it could well affect both lines equally, if one line has physically degraded more than the other you could well be lucky.

Well the current ADSL line is only 8 years old I'd say, whereas the voice line is probably 20/25 years old.

[Rik]

As is one of my lines, it's performance is similar to the newer line.

[netgem21]

Do I still need the second router or can I return it now?

[Rik]

It shows an improvement in sync speed, so I'd be inclined to hang on to it.

[netgem21]

Sorry to bump an old thread, but just a quick update for everyone. Still, the sync rate hasn't returned to normal so we are moving the ADSL to the other line in our house. Just one question, I know we need a microfilter for the master socket where the router is, but do we need one for each phone in the house too?

Thanks

[Rik]

You do. It's the phones that need filtering, not the ADSL.