The dreaded warning of being changed by BT for a callout

[klipp]

Hi.

I've been in touch with IDNet support today once again trying to fix my 5 week long internet problems.  Let me give you some key points:

1. my downstream sync has cut from 4000kbps to 2000kbps - been this way for 5 weeks.
2. my downstream LA has increased from 52db to 59db - been this way for 5 weeks.
3. I am currently connected to the test socket.
4. I have replaced all phones, router, micro filters - no change.
5. I lose sync/connection many times each week.
6. I suffer packet loss most evenings from 10pm onwards - my connection becomes unusable.

IDNet have said it is probably line degradation.  They said I have the option of having BT engineer come see, however they were obliged to warn me I could be charge.  However they were very vague about under what circumstances I would be charged or not.

Do you guys think, based on the information I've provided, I am likely to be charged?  Do you think I should take the risk?  I'd hate to be charged and still have a cr*ppy connection.  My situation sucks lol.

[psp83]

If they find nothing wrong with the box on the wall or anything belonging to them then they will charge you.

I had them out and got charged because they so called couldn't find anything wrong, but its weird that as soon as he left (after messing around up the pole) my connection was better for a few weeks then got cr*p again..

[Rik]

It sounds like classic line degradation. There are two types of BT engineers - those that plug into the test socket and tell you it's working fine, they raise the charge. The other takes your word for it and tries to locate a problem, they don't raise the charge. It depends on who you get, I'm afraid.

[Lance]

I would collect as much evidence as possible in the form of BT speedtests and logs from routerstats to help make the point if you do get an engineer out.

[klipp]

Thanks, I have routerstats collating as we speak.  Had a couple of interesting spikes so far...

[Steve]

Spikes or dips?

[Ted]

A new line would be cheaper than a BT call out, make it known that the line will be used for ADSL. If it all works out, cancel the original line.

Just a thought.

[Rik]

That's certainly one approach, Ted, and the price includes convenient siting of the master socket.

[Technical Ben]

That's kind of pointless. But I could understand the "quick fix" option of "Why do a test for X amount, when we can just replace the line for a cheaper price!"
Why do BT/Openreach not just offer that anyway?
I've seen a lot of people up poles this week.

[klipp]

[Steve]

So for a period of 5 mins you had a high margin I wonder what noise disappeared

[Rik]

Preceded half an hour earlier by a short burst of noise. Can you keep this running for another couple of days, Klipp?

[klipp]

Yep no worries Rik, my computer's on 24/7 anyway so it's no hardship to leave this running.

[klipp]

Just to clarify, when IDNet talk about line degradation, are they refering to the length of cable running from the master socket to the wooden telephone pole?

[Rik]

The quality of line between you and the exchange, whatever form that takes.

[JohnH]

My daughter took the plunge and called BT out because of ongoing phone and broadband problems. (She is actually with BT).
The engineer found an internal wiring fault. but when asked if BT would charge, he said not. This was on the basis that because she did not have an NTE5 master socket, she would not have been able to test whether the problem was related to the internal wiring. He advised her to keep that way, so that she would not be charged for any future internal faults.

She's got one of these:



Was the man from BT just being generous or is it really policy?

[Steve]

If he was right where do we get those boxes from

[Simon]

Antiques Roadshow? 

[Steve]

Version1

[Gary]

We had one of them in our old house, just inside the Kitchen window by the taps, it was nice and rusty inside.

[Ted]

That's kind of pointless. But I could understand the "quick fix" option of "Why do a test for X amount, when we can just replace the line for a cheaper price!"

Precisely! I'm not saying it's ideal, but at least you get something done for your money, it could end up being a cheap fix, especially if you don't plan on moving for a few years or longer.

But like I said, it's just an option that's worth considering. It's always good to have options.

[klipp]

I am 90% sure the spikes occur when the phone rings/the phone is in use.  I will test further.

[Rik]

Try a different phone and filter in that case.

[Glenn]

Can also try calling with no phone or filter connected.

[klipp]

Tried no less than 3 filters and 3 phones.

[Rik]

How about no phones?

[klipp]

I can't try that right now, I don't have a mobile but I'll get someone to call me tomorrow.

[Rik]

If you want to PM me your number, I'll do it now.

[klipp]

OK Well that was interesting.  I have just done the following:

1. Before doing anything.
result: n/m 6.5db

2. Disconnected the phone, leaving only the router connected to the test socket.
result: n/m 16db, eventually settles at 12db about a minute later.

3. Got my sister to call on her mobile.
result: n/m drops to 1.5db for a few seconds then jumps up to 16db.

4. Phone call ends.
result: n/m drops over a few seconds, before levelling at 12db.

5. Telephone is reconnected to test socket filter + router.
result: n/m returns to pre-test level of 6.5db.

[Steve]

Not sure of the explanation but I think if you didn't have a phone on that line you would get your sync back.

[klipp]

Well that is impractical due to the phone being required.  However a second phone line specifically for b/b is beginning to seem like a realistic idea, leaving my current line for the phone.

I assume a second phone line would not be degraded like my current one is?

[Niall]

Well that is impractical due to the phone being required.  However a second phone line specifically for b/b is beginning to seem like a realistic idea, leaving my current line for the phone.

I assume a second phone line would not be degraded like my current one is?

It depends. At my house, the main line is an absolute mess according to BT, and my line to my bedroom where I have my phone line with DSL is fine. It also depends if it's two lines or two lines spliced from one cable (for want of a better term).

[klipp]

There are currently 2 lines running to my house.  One used to be a second line and is currently disconnected.

[Simon]

Could it be the phone itself, I wonder?

[klipp]

Could it be the phone itself, I wonder?

Don't think so.  That recent screenshot was taken during a test with no phones connected at all.  Seems I get the rise to 15 or 16db when someone calls me, regardless of whether a phone is connected or not.

The curious thing about that test was that my regular noise margin is 12db with no phone connected, but 6.5db when the phone is connected.  Very odd.

[Technical Ben]

[Complete random speculation] Could the old wire be acting as an antenna and causing interference?
Could you try 2 filters? Hmm, but with no phone connected in the test, that would not help anyway. 

[Rik]

The curious thing about that test was that my regular noise margin is 12db with no phone connected, but 6.5db when the phone is connected.  Very odd.

The rise in noise margin is an improvement, eventually BT would reduce the target back to 6db and you'd get higher speeds. The fact it goes even higher when someone phones suggests a bad joint to me. The ringing current is improving the circuit for a short while.

[klipp]

bad joint

What's a bad joint?  Sounds like something you should avoid at Glastonbury.

[Rik]

That as well. BT cables run in segments between subscriber and exchange. There are several different kinds of joints employed, depending on the cable run, but your line will have several to many joints along its length. If one of them corrodes or gets a bit loose, it can cause problems.

[Steve]

I suppose the extra load of a phone in that situation just tips it over the edge.

[klipp]

Ah, so a second line might not make a shred of difference if the problem exists elsewhere.

[Rik]

It's impossible to know, unfortunately. However, if you order the line specifically for ADSL, you stand a good chance of improvement. First, though, follow through the changes the phone situation makes with support.

[klipp]

Thanks Rik.

I've been chatting with Brian from support this afternoon via email.  See what (if anything) can be done.  Interestingly he revealed his records show I have disconnected 11 times this week so far lol.

[Rik]

I'm not surprised.