Forum style

[drummer]

I dont want to keep asking silly questions i know you have all said the is no port blocking or traffic shaping what about throttling at peak times only asking cos my current isp throttle at weekends when servers are busy.

No port throttling or packet shaping whatsoever with IDNet.  Does what it says on the tin, and does it extremely well.  On my first month I went a little bit mad because I didn't think it would last, but it did and continues to this day.  Schweet.  

Something I'd like to see on this forum though is waffle throttling, so that people like you don't get put off by the inane jabbering that seems to accompany every sodding post.

IDNet is an excellent ISP and I have no hesitation in recommending them to anyone who asks.

[MoHux]

ROFL!! Have a Karma on me.  

[Inactive]

Something I'd like to see on this forum though is waffle throttling, so that people like you don't get put off by the inane jabbering that seems to accompany every sodding post.

But the OP did get the answers to his/her questions, and he/she did come back to ask more, and got courteous and hopefully helpful replies, so the so called " waffle " didn't do any harm.

[cavillas]

Without the waffle and slight deviation from the post, this forum would be boring and straight laced.  Let's keep it lively and happy.

[Inactive]

Without the waffle and slight deviation from the post, this forum would be boring and straight laced.  Let's keep it lively and happy.

Agreed, it could get as bad as a day out in Walton - on - the - Naze.

Whoops, was that Off Topic?

[Lance]

As far as I am concerned, as long as the serious questions have been answered, may the fun begin!

Agreed, it could get as bad as a day out in Walton - on - the - Naze.

It couldn't get that bad, could it?

edit for typo

[Rik]

Forum style is always a tricky area. Some people like a strictly on-topic discussion, others prefer to engage in a bit of banter. My own view, which I held before joining the staff, is that with a small community like ours, banter is the glue which binds us. Providing serious questions get serious answers, I see no harm in it.

If we were, as a group of friends, sat around having a drink together, we'd swap jokes, natter about things which have caught our eye and indulge in banter. If someone walked in and asked for directions, we'd stop, give them our best advice, then carry on. If they came back, still lost, one of us might show them the way, or draw a map. It's what my Irish friends call the Craic.

If we grow significantly, things might need to change, but for now I am happy that the forum's particular style works for most people. Of course, not everyone will be happy with off topic wanderings, but it's impossible to have a single style that will suit everyone.

[cavillas]

Agreed, it could get as bad as a day out in Walton - on - the - Naze.

Whoops, was that Off Topic?

Tut, Tut.  A day out at Walton is an experience to remember.

[Lance]

But not necessarily a good one!!!

[Inactive]

Tut, Tut.  A day out at Walton is an experience to remember.

Indeed it is... 

[drummer]

Forum style is always a tricky area. Some people like a strictly on-topic discussion, others prefer to engage in a bit of banter. My own view, which I held before joining the staff, is that with a small community like ours, banter is the glue which binds us. Providing serious questions get serious answers, I see no harm in it.

If we were, as a group of friends, sat around having a drink together, we'd swap jokes, natter about things which have caught our eye and indulge in banter. If someone walked in and asked for directions, we'd stop, give them our best advice, then carry on. If they came back, still lost, one of us might show them the way, or draw a map. It's what my Irish friends call the Craic.

If we grow significantly, things might need to change, but for now I am happy that the forum's particular style works for most people. Of course, not everyone will be happy with off topic wanderings, but it's impossible to have a single style that will suit everyone.

I don't disagree with much of what you say, but there are so many areas in this forum that naturally lend themselves to idle banter, some self-regulation on technical questions might not be such a bad thing.

Just go over this thread again and you'll notice that a private conversation had started by post #5 and the OP's secondary question was somewhere in the region of #17.  Then there appeared the usual jabbering about how casual this forum is and what a boring git I am.

All I've ever suggested is that this forum keeps the noise to a minimum in technical threads so that the issue is addressed without the need to plough through reams of irrelevent natter.

I'm always gonna be a pain in the rear and I don't court popularity, but as this is an "unofficial" forum, surely users should have some say in the way it evolves and be allowed to offer criticism without being marginalised?

And yes, I'm aware that I've dragged this thread completely off-topic...

[Inactive]

I'm always gonna be a pain in the rear and I don't court popularity, but as this is an "unofficial" forum, surely users should have some say in the way it evolves and be allowed to offer criticism without being marginalised?

And yes, I'm aware that I've dragged this thread completely off-topic...

Well, I don't recall you being " marginalised " you freely had your say, it seemed to be  out of sync with the overall view, that's all.

Nobody stopped anyone expressing their view.

I don't recall anyone calling you a " boring git " either.

Methinks you may be reading too much in to some posts.

[drummer]

I'm not the issue, the forum is.

[Rik]

Just go over this thread again and you'll notice that a private conversation had started by post #5 and the OP's secondary question was somewhere in the region of #17.  Then there appeared the usual jabbering about how casual this forum is and what a boring git I am.

I see no instances of anyone calling you any names, Drummer. Mo, in fact, awarded you a karma for your "waffle filter" remark.

I'm always gonna be a pain in the rear and I don't court popularity, but as this is an "unofficial" forum, surely users should have some say in the way it evolves and be allowed to offer criticism without being marginalised?

The majority of members have consistently indicated that they prefer the light, bantering, atmosphere that this forum adopts. Your comments are noted, not ignored, but for the time being you are in the minority. As I indicated, as we grow, things might need to change and we will always be reviewing the way things are handled.

[Inactive]

I'm not the issue, the forum is.

That is, of course your somewhat exclusive opinion.

[drummer]

Interesting that no one responded to:

Just go over this thread again and you'll notice that a private conversation had started by post #5 and the OP's secondary question was somewhere in the region of #17.

Personally I couldn't give a monkey's about Karma (it did run over my dogma after all) but you've mentioned it so I'll run with it.  MoHux was kind enough to Karma my earlier comment which suddenly brought me up to -1.  Whoopee!  Then a few hours later I'm back down to -2.  It's all a bit silly really.

If you haven't fallen asleep by now, rikbean's thread "FAQs: ADSL Max, Speed profiles, Wiring improvements, tip & tricks etc" is possibly the most comprehensive and well-informed MaxDSL FAQ I've ever read.  Imagine what it would look like if it wasn't locked.

Seriously, give it a moment to sink in.

[RobMc]

I agree. Its a bit of a pain revisiting a technical thread, especially one you have an interest in, or have posed in just to find it's filled up with banter. I'm not saying that lightheartedness is a bad thing but it can reduce the majority of threads to a general chat rather then a discussion of the topic. Even the Natter forum seems to be getting filled with jokes and jibes at the government rather then a discussion forum.

I'm not pointing at anyone here, just thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth.

Rob.

[Inactive]

Erm, the heading for the Natter section reads;

-IDNatter-
Discuss everything and anything non-IDNet related. Chill-out, have some fun!

[MoHux]

Inactive is right about the 'Natter' forum of course.

But I agree with the comments made by both RobMc, and drummer.
In most of the threads they complain of, the humour is very forced most of the time.  It reminds me of the '007' movies, and the recent attempts to achieve the apparent spontaneity (sp?) managed by Roger Moore!   

A 'merry quip' is always welcome, but not followed by a procession of people all trying to 'cap' it!!   

Except in the Natter forum ....... 

[drummer]

So it's not just me then? 

I seriously don't want to fall out with anyone here and I hope y'all realise that, just that some areas may need a bit of moderation. 

Not a big deal really but maybe something to think about.

[Rik]

I hear what you say, Drummer (and Mo & Rob).

As I've previously stated here, the majority of members have indicated that they prefer the forum to be a place in which banter and help co-exist. As we grow, and we have gained some 50 members in the past month compared to 400 in the first 11 months the board existed, there will probably come a time when we do need to keep threads on topic more than happens now. This is especially true as the balance of posting changes, with more threads in the help sections.

The situation is under constant review.

[Inactive]

So it's not just me then? 

Nope, just the vocal minority.. 

Who are BTW guilty of taking this thread totally " Off Topic ".. which of course is doing exactly the same thing as the " banter " that they are moaning about.

Perhaps a new topic may have been appropriate.

[Rik]

And a new topic it now is.

In taking this action, I have borne in mind that the original thread effectively diverged into a new one, and I have created the new thread at the best point I could identify as to where the subject changed.

[RobMc]

As I've previously stated here, the majority of members have indicated that they prefer the forum to be a place in which banter and help co-exist.

I'm sorry Rik but what are you basing this on, has there been a poll that I missed somewhere?

I'm sorry that I'm seen as a part of a "vocal minority" but we should at least try to keep technical query threads on topic. I joined this forum over a year ago when it first started. I saw it as a place where information would be made available from IDNet and where there would be a discussion about Internet related topics. Personally I'm not into a lot of banter and try to stay clear of the IDNatter, Rant&Rave and "Games" forums except when then discuss technical issues of interest to me.

As for the original thread it had gone well off topic before the "off topic" nature of the thread was first discussed.

If this site wasn't "part of IDNet" (you can argue the point that it's unofficial and independent as much as you like)  I would have given up on it a long time ago.

Rob.

[Rik]

Hi Rob

To take your points in order:

1)  I'm basing my statement on views expressed by members at various times in various threads. There has been no formal poll.

2)  I don't see you as part of a vocal minority, or any other minority, you are a member of the forum with the same rights as any other. I may agree or disagree with what you say, but you have a right to say it (within forum rules).

3)  The original thread was, indeed, off topic. As I indicated, I made the break at a point where I felt it had become a new topic, namely the discussion of forum style (or character, or whatever name you feel appropriate). The earlier OT posts weren't relevant to this discussion, so I left them where they were.

[Baca]

Not being prone to waffling myself,    i would just like to add my two pennies worth, before i joined IDNetters Forums, i had a good look around and i liked what i saw, so i joined up. Not everyone can answer technical problems, not everyone has a problem that they need help with, but everyone can join in and have a bit of fun and a good natter, so i think you have got it just right has it is. Anyway enough of the waffling, iv'e other things i must do.

Baca 

[jupiter]

I'm too happy with the way the various boards here work and greatly welcome the recently developed set of stickies on technical aspects.

It is natural that different people will favour different 'styles', but my perception of it is that, on the whole, each board has a flavour which reflects its title.  And, as RobMc posts, those who do not want to do so, need not visit boards that don't suit them.

The Natter board, for me, is exactly what it says and I wouldn't want anyone to start trying to make it, or its contents, conform to any 'ideal' of what such a board should be.  Within basic forum rules anyone should feel free to post what they want on a Natter board.

And by and large the technical boards do stick to answering queries.  And you can bet that if anyone started trying to force posts into some kind of straightjacket, then there would be cries of over-interference.  How could anyone say "no jokes, this is a technical forum" and not be written off as a control freak!  I've never known a forum anywhere that does not go off topic at times - it is how peole are.

[Lance]

I'm another person also happy with the way the forum operates. If i didn't like it, i wouldn't use it. Simple as that. As others have said, you can pick and choose which parts to read and i agree that on the whole, help questions do stay on topic. Just because maybe one or two might deviate from the original post, there is no need to create a fuss and demand more moderation, sulking when you are told its not felt necessary.

i'll just point out i'm tired and a bit grumpy tonight, and my post is not aimed at any particular person or group of people. Its purely my thoughts on this subject.

[MoHux]

Or sulking when you are told it IS felt necessary Lance. 

I don't remember anyone asking for more moderation, unless you mean self-moderation that is!!

And "one or two might deviate" from the original post, is a gross understatement.  The unrelated waffle sometimes fills a page or two before someone remembers the original poster. 

[jupiter]

The unrelated waffle sometimes fills a page or two before someone remembers the original poster. 

Replace page or two by hour or two and you remind me of loads of meetings I used to have to go to at work!  It is just people isn't it. 

[Mr Booh]

I reckon posters raising serious topics deserve 'Common Courtesy' from us all!

[Inactive]

I reckon posters raising serious topics deserve fast and effective help with their problem, which they all seem to get.

We are in danger of turning this forum in to a question and answers only place, without any humour,  where nobody, other than those posing questions visits.

I reckon the balance is just about right at the moment.

[jupiter]

I reckon posters raising serious topics deserve 'Common Courtesy' from us all!

That is absolutely right.  I've not spotted any posts here where there has been discourtesy - off-topic and digressions yes, but in good spirit I reckon.  Nor, I hope, would anyone condemn courteously expressed views.  Just to disagree with them is not a problem - it is the meat and drink of a forum.

When I visit some other forums I see rudeness and mean spirit and people who seem to be on some kind of ego trip.  So I stop going there.  Here I don't find that and so I like to visit.

[drummer]

Hi Rob

To take your points in order:

1)  I'm basing my statement on views expressed by members at various times in various threads. There has been no formal poll.

2)  I don't see you as part of a vocal minority, or any other minority, you are a member of the forum with the same rights as any other. I may agree or disagree with what you say, but you have a right to say it (within forum rules).

3)  The original thread was, indeed, off topic. As I indicated, I made the break at a point where I felt it had become a new topic, namely the discussion of forum style (or character, or whatever name you feel appropriate). The earlier OT posts weren't relevant to this discussion, so I left them where they were.

Aplogies to RobMc for taking up the cudgels on this.

1)  Your statement is based on the views expressed by those who agree with you.  As a Mod, you must realise that many will be reluctant to get on the wrong side of you and will just keep quiet, so most of the opinions actually expressed will be from those who support your view.

2)  It was Inactive who introduced the concept of the vocal minority within this forum and not yourself, but you must have realised by now, any criticism of this forum is met with a defensive closing of ranks, rather than a healthy debate about how the forum should and could evolve.

3)  Although I'm entirely to blame for taking the original post wildly OT, all I did was follow the same unwritten rules as everyone else, but then find this discussion shifted to a new thread.  Consistency might be an issue worth thinking about.

Recently, someone on here posted some stats which indicate that it's only a handful that actually contribute to this forum on a regular basis.  Not really the basis of how a majority is usually defined.

[jupiter]

1)  Your statement is based on the views expressed by those who agree with you.  As a Mod, you must realise that many will be reluctant to get on the wrong side of you and will just keep quiet, so most of the opinions actually expressed will be from those who support your view.

Gosh - why would I worry about being on the wrong side of a mod?  It isn't life and death.  Every day on here I read different opinions on all sorts of issues.  If I didn't I wouldn't be here.

2) ... any criticism of this forum is met with a defensive closing of ranks, rather than a healthy debate about how the forum should and could evolve.

I suppose what you may be seeing is a situation in which a lot of those who use this forum are using it because they like it.  People gravitate towards what they like.  I don't think that is a fault, it is just reality.  Nor do I think it is defensive - they just like it!

3)  Although I'm entirely to blame for taking the original post wildly OT, all I did was follow the same unwritten rules as everyone else, but then find this discussion shifted to a new thread.  Consistency might be an issue worth thinking about.

For my money consistency is a double edged sword - it sometimes goes along with over control.  But like all these things, it is worth talking about - which is what we are doing?

Recently, someone on here posted some stats which indicate that it's only a handful that actually contribute to this forum on a regular basis ...

Not sure that is true. I seem to be seeing more and more new names.  But in general I think that forums do attract a core support.  On TB you see the same group of names, certainly in the ISP boards.  I think that is in the nature of things.

Overall I tend to think that this thread illustrates the kind of debate you argue for.  In this instance most people seem to have disagreed with you on some points - but that does not invalidate your views or that you should express them.  But you knew that and it sounds a bit patronising for me to say so.

That is another problem with online forums. If we were sitting across a pub table with a couple of pints the conversation would not just consist of words - we would see each other's expressions and gestures.  It is too easy in forums for people to get prickly when no side was intended - that seems to happen a lot on TB IMO.

And people rambling on and on in posts - there's another thing ...

[Inactive]

2)  It was Inactive who introduced the concept of the vocal minority within this forum and not yourself, but you must have realised by now, any criticism of this forum is met with a defensive closing of ranks, rather than a healthy debate about how the forum should and could evolve.

Not a " defensive closing of ranks " just a different point of view from yours.

I thought all of this was a " healthy debate about how the forum should and could evolve ", or have I missed something?

As for getting on the " wrong side of a Mod ", that is utter tosh as far as I am concerned, If I upset a Mod, so be it.

Anyway perhaps you may consider running a poll on this issue to establish the majority view, once and for all.

[Rik]

Hi Drummer

1) My statement is based on the views expressed by the founders of this board and by the active membership. I stated my position long before I became a mod and I do not believe that people are worried about getting on the wrong side of me, since I haven't been noted for clumping around in heavy boots squashing any dissent. Last month, I had two debates with Rob on the question of the NOD32 update thread. I went out of my way to find a compromise that would please both him and those who held a different view. I would hope that Rob was not worried about getting on the wrong side of me, if he was, I'm surprised he raised the issue twice.

2) I guess we will have to agree to disagree. What you see as a defensive closing of ranks I see as the expression of views by the most regular posters. To my mind, they are just as entitled to say that they like the balance of the forum as it is as you are to say you don't.

3) I'm not placing blame for the thread going OT, I'm simply carrying out my job. Effectively, you created a new debate within a help thread on the issue of threads going off topic. I felt that the discussion warranted it's own thread (a) because it didn't belong in the thread in which it started and (b) because it was important that it got seen by more members, who might have missed it had I left it where it originated. I don't find that inconsistent, I've already indicated why I am happy with a degree of banter. However, where I see a new topic forming within a thread, or where I see two or more related, but separate, threads, I am likely to do some housekeeping.

As to majorities, the current Government was elected by a minority of the population, yet they still have a majority in the House of Commons. It may be a minority of the board's members who post regularly, but as the active members of the forum, they have indicated their views in this and other threads. I take note of what is said by everyone. As I have previously said, as we grow, it may be necessary to change the way we do things here, but I do not yet feel we have reached that point.

[drummer]

...As to majorities, the current Government was elected by a minority of the population, yet they still have a majority in the House of Commons. It may be a minority of the board's members who post regularly, but as the active members of the forum, they have indicated their views in this and other threads. I take note of what is said by everyone. As I have previously said, as we grow, it may be necessary to change the way we do things here, but I do not yet feel we have reached that point...

Hi rikbean

I'm aware of the shortcomings in our current electoral system and the resultant voter apathy.  Many intelligent voters make a conscious decision to abstain because of what's on offer.

Similarly, I'm personally aware of three other IDNet customers with a wealth of  computer and Internet experience who regularly contribute to technical forums, but simply don't bother with this forum because of the OT waffle.  Banter, humour, chat and waffle are essential ingredients for a successful forum, but only where it's appropriate and I think my only real criticism is that technical threads are allowed to meander endlessly.

Given the current consensus, I'm never going to win anyone over to my point of view, so I'll just sulk for a bit and keep checking in every now and again. 

So yes, we agree to disagree.

[Adam]

I apologise if the following reply is neither useful or relevant as I haven't read the whole topic.

Perhaps a method for people to filter out the OT posts by either minimising or completely removing them from their view would be a fair compromise? It would be possible to add automatic filtering and post "hiding" for users who want to banish certain posts from their view.

(NOTE: The above possible solutions mentioned does not delete or remove any post from the forum database, it simply removes or hides them from the persons view. Equally, any changes made by one user would not effect other users.)

[Rik]

I'm aware of the shortcomings in our current electoral system and the resultant voter apathy.  Many intelligent voters make a conscious decision to abstain because of what's on offer.

Point taken.

Similarly, I'm personally aware of three other IDNet customers with a wealth of  computer and Internet experience who regularly contribute to technical forums, but simply don't bother with this forum because of the OT waffle.  Banter, humour, chat and waffle are essential ingredients for a successful forum, but only where it's appropriate and I think my only real criticism is that technical threads are allowed to meander endlessly.

I could probably name all three. I can't accept your assertion that technical threads are allowed to meander endlessly though, unless you mean that we will persist until we find a solution or reach a point where we cannot.

Take a look at these three threads:

http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,2132.msg34054.html#msg34054
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,2177.msg34569.html#msg34569
http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,2173.msg34492.html#msg34492

Forum members have worked with the OPs to try and resolve their problems, especially over the Bank Holiday weekend, when support is closed.

Given the current consensus, I'm never going to win anyone over to my point of view, so I'll just sulk for a bit and keep checking in every now and again. 

I'd really like you to take a good look at recent help threads. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

[jupiter]

Perhaps a method for people to filter out the OT posts by either minimising or completely removing them from their view would be a fair compromise? It would be possible to add automatic filtering and post "hiding" for users who want to banish certain posts from their view.
(NOTE: The above possible solutions mentioned does not delete or remove any post from the forum database, it simply removes or hides them from the persons view. Equally, any changes made by one user would not effect other users.)

I am having trouble getting my head around that - probably me being thick!

But with different posters looking at different selections of posts, (because they have filtered some out) how would anyone understand the development of the points in the thread sufficiently to make a coherent reply? 

Some replies would be written in ignorance of earlier posts because the writer of the reply had screened out the earlier post.

I'm also unsure who would decide what was off topic?  And of course, parts of a post may be off topic and other parts not.

Maybe I have misunderstood the whole thing

[Baca]

The most important thing is not whether a technical query has gone of topic slightly, but whether the person who posted the original question for help or whatever, was given the help and advice he required, which i am sure he would get here, if at all possible.
People are different thats what makes the world go round and i can see why some people may prefer technical questions to be answered without the need for waffle or banter, or whatever name you wish to call it. Personly it dosn't bother me either way, but i would like to think that i wouldn't be here just for the help, as and when i needed it. Anyway if that was the case, not being a very technical person, i probably would never get a post in. 

Baca