Decreasing Speeds

mj62mj62 · Sep 09, 2010, 08:05:48

Hello All,

Thank you in advance for your help.

The other day I noticed slow speeds. I checked and my router had terrible errors on the up connection, the down was fine (see 'previous' screenshot attachment). It had reduced from 6mbps to 2.

I tried changing the splitter and plugging it into the master socket. No difference.

So I bought a new router, the 2710n by Draytek. However it doesn't break down the figures as much in terms of CRC vs other errors. I've attached a screenshot of what it looks like now. Yesterday (when I got it) it was down to 1Mbps and now it's down to 500k...! Yikes!!!

I tried the bt speedtester which gave me errors. Eventually I learned that leaving the 'domain' field blank helps the test to work :-) BT speedtester said this:

Download speed achieved during the test was - 418 Kbps

For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 200-1000 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :1148 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 828 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 750 Kbps
The throughput of Best Efforts (BE) classes achieved during the test is - 13.57:27.54:58.89 (SBE:NBE:PBE)
These figures represent the ratio while sententiously passing Sub BE, Normal BE and Priority BE marked traffic.

I've emailed support - we'll see what they respond with, but I thought I'd ask here too as well.

I'm really keen to get this running again. A lot of the advice is leave it for a few days, but perhaps i'm too anxious. i always left the old router on and the new one has been on overnight, but that has somehow decreased the speed since I got it yesterday.

There are talks of iplates and other things. But I don't think those would help because I don't have phone lines in my house off the main socket.

My setup is:

Phone line into electrical/meters cabinet inside the house.
A wire connects from the socket there onto a cat5e cable that goes to the patch panel.
At the patch panel (numbered connections) I take the one for the phone and using an adaptor (RJ45 to phone style) I plug it into an ADSL splitter and into the router (2710n). From that same adsl splitter, the phone line portion feeds into the houses phone network. I did wonder if I should buy an iplate and use it as the last stage, on the splitter, to ensure noise elimination from the home network. Or perhaps iplates on both the main socket and off the adaptor? What do you think?

Thank You :-)
Matt

[attachment deleted by admin]

Glenn · Sep 09, 2010, 08:10:09

Matt, you may want to remove your IP address from the attachment

DorsetBoy · Sep 09, 2010, 08:12:49

You can get more info from your Draytek via Telnet.

Command Prompt> Telnet > IP Address for router> password > then type .... show status .... and then adsl status .... which will give you 2 sets of results that you can copy/paste here.

mj62mj62 · Sep 09, 2010, 08:17:27

Ip address removed from attachment (thanks)

From telnet (very cool!) the results are:

> show status
System Uptime:11:43:15
LAN Status
Primary DNS:212.69.40.3 Secondary DNS:212.69.36.3
IP Address:192.168.1.1 Tx Rate:2848 Rx Rate:985

WAN 1 Status:Connected
Enable:Yes Line:ADSL Name:idnet.com
Mode:PPPoA Up Time:2:59:41
TX Packets:41292 TX Rate:250 RX Packets:45241 RX Rate:745

ADSL Information: ADSL Firmware Version:232201_A
Mode:ADSL2+(G.992.5) State:SHOWTIME TX Block:864052 RX Block:34973246
Corrected Blocks:0 Uncorrected Blocks:1
UP Speed:828000 Down Speed:568888 SNR Margin:24 Loop Att.:23

> adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : ADSL2+(G.992.5) State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 568888 bps US Actual Rate : 828000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 4656000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1695479 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 192 US Interleave Depth : 8
NE Current Attenuation : 23 dB Cur SNR Margin : 25 dB
DS actual PSD : 13. 9 dB US actual PSD : 12. 6 dB
ADSL Firmware Version : 232201_A
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 9 dB Far SNR Margin : 14 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : 00005453 CO ITU Version[1] : 00005443
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < TI >

Wow - I can figure out some of that stuff but I'm not really sure what that all means... Thank You for your help!

Rik · Sep 09, 2010, 08:28:03

It looks like you've got bad noise on your circuit, the Max rate is lower than thes sync speed, meaning that noise has increased since you synced. Have you ever tried the router at the master socket?

mj62mj62 · Sep 09, 2010, 08:34:23

I tried my old one on the master socket with no difference, but I'll put my new router on the master socket now and leave it there for the day.

Which of the numbers indicates high noise? When I plug it in will I be able to look at one of those numbers to see if noise is reduced?

I've turned almost everything in the house off overnight, including my hub, nas, pc, tv, cordless phones, etc.

Rik · Sep 09, 2010, 08:36:47

If the max attainable is lower than the sync speed, there's noise around that wasn't there when the router syncs. It's the source of that we need to track.

You've also got deep interleaving on, which suggests a lot of instability on the line, as does the raised noise margin.

mj62mj62 · Sep 09, 2010, 08:41:58

Interesting.

Okay, I've moved it downstairs to the master socket. The master socket is right next to the main fuse/circuit box, the meters, and a tv amplifier which pushes the tv signal out to sockets around the house... So I've had to turn off the tv amp to free up the only plug and plug in the router.

Results:

> show status
System Uptime:0:3:54
LAN Status
Primary DNS:212.69.40.3 Secondary DNS:212.69.36.3
IP Address:192.168.1.1 Tx Rate:147 Rx Rate:0

WAN 1 Status:Connected
Enable:Yes Line:ADSL Name:idnet.com
Mode:PPPoA Up Time:0:02:51
TX Packets:620 TX Rate:47 RX Packets:485 RX Rate:63

ADSL Information: ADSL Firmware Version:232201_A
Mode:ADSL2+(G.992.5) State:SHOWTIME TX Block:1550 RX Block:1856
Corrected Blocks:0 Uncorrected Blocks:1
UP Speed:828000 Down Speed:568888 SNR Margin:29 Loop Att.:23

> adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
Running Mode : ADSL2+(G.992.5) State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 568888 bps US Actual Rate : 828000 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 5544000 bps US Attainable Rate : 1632747 bps
DS Path Mode : Interleave US Path Mode : Interleave
DS Interleave Depth : 192 US Interleave Depth : 8
NE Current Attenuation : 23 dB Cur SNR Margin : 28 dB
DS actual PSD : 18. 4 dB US actual PSD : 12. 8 dB
ADSL Firmware Version : 232201_A
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 9 dB Far SNR Margin : 11 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : 00005453 CO ITU Version[1] : 00005443
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR : < TI >
>

Rik · Sep 09, 2010, 08:48:48

You'll hate me for saying this, but the more you describe your setup, the more I'm thinking "move the master socket". TBH, it's in a place which is potentially a hot bed of interference, and then there's your patch panel. If just one connection isn't perfect, it's going to cause jitter.

You need to do two things. Disconnect everything that's connected to the phone line except the router for several days, and monitor what happens. Also, get a battery-powered MW radio and de-tune it so you only have white noise. Run that around the cupboard and see if the hiss increases.

Steve · Sep 09, 2010, 08:48:55

I guessing you've been banded by BT due to connection instability caused by high error rates or noise. The previous band limit for you first image was 2272 very close to that sync and now you've dropped down to another band who's limit is 576. The Bt speedtest sync is very close also to a band limit of 1152 which you passed through on the way down.

Have you got access to the test socket on the master?

WBC banded line profile (rate kbps)
7168 - 14336
4864 - 9728
3328 - 6656
2272 - 4544
1472 - 3072
1152 - 2272
576 - 1152
288 - 576
160 - 288

mj62mj62 · Sep 09, 2010, 09:03:54

Quote from: Steve on Sep 09, 2010, 08:48:55

Have you got access to the test socket on the master?

On the master I am plugged into the test socket, yes. (I thought that is what Rik meant).

Rik - would you like me to be plugged into the master socket or the test socket within the master socket?

I'll think about moving the master socket and I don't think we have one but I'll get a radio to test out the interference idea. Thanks

Steve · Sep 09, 2010, 09:11:00

With regard the iPlate if the ring wire is disconnected you don't need one, you only need wires attached to pins 2 and 5

Rik · Sep 09, 2010, 09:13:46

Quote from: mj62mj62 on Sep 09, 2010, 09:03:54
On the master I am plugged into the test socket, yes. (I thought that is what Rik meant).

Test socket is best.

mj62mj62 · Sep 09, 2010, 09:15:36

Thanks, I'll leave it online for today and check the results after work. thanks again!

Rik · Sep 09, 2010, 09:17:25

NP.

mj62mj62 · Sep 11, 2010, 10:19:38

Hi Rik,

Here is a picture of my data cupboard. I got an MW radio (although not battery, on mains) and when it is close to either the fuse/switch box or the meters on the left the sound changes to a loud hmmmmm sound.

I then ran the radio down the wall, well below this cupboard, and you can still here the interference travelling on the wires, even through the wall.

I ran the radio along the phone box on the outside of the house but didn't hear anything.

Upstairs, I have plugged in the router again but in a unique way - I plugged in the router as far away from the socket as it would reach so that the phone cable would be pulled tight.

I ran the radio along the phone wire and heard no increase in noise with the router turned off. I turned the router back on, the noise along the phone wire was significantly increased.

My cupboard:
As you can see from the picture, the TV and Ethernet (Cat 5e) wires run vertically through this cupboard, right along side the units causing the interference. Re-wiring this would be a massive job - even the phone wire comes in through a plastic pipe that runs from the outside to the back of that master socket. It was all wired before the house was refurbed.

I'm wondering:

(1) (and I know there may be no answer to this one) How it worked quickly before, for months on end, and is now not working? There have been no changes... I once measured 7 Mbps on speedtest.

(2) Practically speaking, any suggestions on how to re-wire or shield the existing wires from interferences? Tin foil? Lead Panels? Anything?

Thank you again for your help, I appreciate it :-)
Matt

[attachment deleted by admin]

Rik · Sep 11, 2010, 10:31:10

Hi Matt

I think you've got the master socket in the worst possible place, there's so much electrical noise surrounding it. Personally, I'd think about paying BT to move it - though there's no guarantee it will solve anything.

You'd also have to shift your patch panel, of course.

Why did it work before? No-one can give you a definitive answer, but if the noise has been causing errors, as Steve says, you will have been put on a banded profile.

Two things you might want to try first, another router (do you still have the old one?) and seeing if you can lift the mains cable between meter and consumer unit so that it's above the phone socket and at right angles to it.

Technical Ben · Sep 11, 2010, 10:52:08

I am not an electrician... but I would guess, any hot or noisy component in that cupborad would kill your connection. Thankfully, my phone socket is on the opposite wall to my electric meter.

cavillas · Sep 11, 2010, 14:09:20

Perhaps the power pack of your router is becoming faulty and causes interference. Just an off the cuff suggestion. Some power packs Can develop intermittent and long term faults yet still run OK.

mj62mj62 · Sep 11, 2010, 14:17:35

Quote from: cavillas on Sep 11, 2010, 14:09:20
Perhaps the power pack of your router is becoming faulty and causes interference. Just an off the cuff suggestion. Some power packs Can develop intermittent and long term faults yet still run OK.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have used two different routers in hope of narrowing it down...

The router lives upstairs near the patch panel, not in this cupboard. However the noise does travel on the line upstairs.

I have now booked someone on Monday to look at it. They are going to fix the cupboard such that all phone and network related wires are shielded into their own metal box and use electrical testing kit to test everything in the house. Fingers crossed as I'm down to 0.5Mbps internet!!

cavillas · Sep 11, 2010, 14:30:09

Ahh! Those speeds take you back to a more carefree past.

Did you know that Freeuk is still offering broadband at 512mb and reckon it is still state of the art.

Have a look at Freeuk

Rik · Sep 11, 2010, 16:00:52

Quote from: mj62mj62 on Sep 11, 2010, 14:17:35
I have now booked someone on Monday to look at it. They are going to fix the cupboard such that all phone and network related wires are shielded into their own metal box and use electrical testing kit to test everything in the house. Fingers crossed as I'm down to 0.5Mbps internet!!

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

mj62mj62 · Sep 16, 2010, 18:55:17

Hi All,

Networking guy has been here and has put everything into steel boxes so that they are shielded from any interference.

Hasn't made any difference in the internet speed.

I've sent bt speedtest results (what a terrible interface that site is) to idnet regularly. They've unbanded my line again and I'm to leave it for 72 hours and report back to them.

BT Speedtester isn't working tonight - giving strange errors. Idnet says BT is upgrading the speedtester today...

Even when it is fixed (supposedly in 72 hours or they will move me to a different service) I could be in the impossible position of trying to solve whatever in my house (if anything) is causing interference.

Yet under this technology, BT could then band my line low again, and I'd be stuck with no way of narrowing down the problem.

Or worse, spend every evening trying to fix it.

THIS IS A TERRIBLE CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE!!!

I should be able to purchase a high quality, high speed, working internet connection. 72 hour test cycles, a rubbish speed tester, etc, it's bad technical architecture.

While I have no interest in going back to a huge multinational like Virgin, with idnet I'm just as stuck with another multinational: BT and I'm being screwed.

72 hours to test a line??? This isn't the dark ages and unless this magically starts working seemlessly, I'm going to vote with my feet and head to Virgin for higher speeds (fiber) and a stable connection.

It's just truly unbelievable that we can have 3G internet on our iphones and yet use fixed technology that can't adjust instantly.

It's not the fault of anyone on this forum or even idnet, but should all these forums be necessary? Just sell me something that works and I'll buy it immediately...

Equally if there is someone I can pay to come to my house and fix it, please let me know. Be it wiring or whatever, I can't seem to get a straight answer about whether it's the line, interference, etc... This isn't rocket science!!?!?!?! And I don't want to spend loads of time fixing it. I need it to work, I need it to be reliable and fast. Can I not buy that in today's marketplace??

Crawling around with battery powdered radios/etc, all seems a bit ridiculous to me. Surely there must be a more exact science than sitting around for 72hours intervals before we try the next 'idnet/bt experiment'....

Sigh, don't get me wrong... I'm am genuinely grateful for the generous and knowledgeable help from the volunteers on this forum, so thank you again!!!! I'm just at my wits end with this stuff and how primitive it all is... Good design dictates that the end user should not have to go through all this. (maybe I should buy a third router? A few more adsl splitters??? ridiculous...) ARGGGG!!!

Rik · Sep 16, 2010, 18:59:27

I can understand how you feel, but your particular problem was always going to be difficult to solve due to the cable topography. FTTP would be your best option, if it becomes available to you.

cavillas · Sep 16, 2010, 19:21:52

BT should have updated the whole of its infrastructure, nationally, about 5 or more years ago. They have left it far too late and will always be playing catch up to all future advances in technology. From being the very best communications provider in the workld BT is now one of the worst for its infrastructure. It all goes back to shareholders and their profits rather than building the best system they can.

Rik · Sep 16, 2010, 19:22:19

Amen to that, Alf.

Glenn · Sep 16, 2010, 19:24:22

5 years ago - I would go further and say 10 - 20 years ago when the cable companies were rolling out fibre.

cavillas · Sep 16, 2010, 19:38:12

Actually I would go back even further , say64 years, just after the war when everything should have been upgraded. Just like they did in Germany.

mj62mj62 · Sep 22, 2010, 21:49:55

Hi Rik, All,

Well, it's with regret that I have left idnet - or more appropriately, I have left BT. After numerous rounds of unbanding my line, moving me to adsl max, etc, nothing was working and weeks of my time was wasted.

I have moved to Virgin. Which I do with a heavy heart because I'd rather vote with my wallet and support the ISPs that provide excellent service. However idnet were powerless to resolve my problem and after each 'experiment' we had to wait 72 hours to see how the BT technology changed. Ironically VM could show up and install it quicker than idnet could resolve it.

I'm convinced that the problem was not in my house. I had some electrical engineers of my own visit and they even went the extra mile, putting steel boxes around all the wires that could be affected and performing measurements. Multiple routers, running wires out away from any interference, etc, nothing changed anything. It must have been on BT's end.

In the long haul, I can't see any BT related ISP having a future, other than disgruntled customers leaving VM. If you have a VM problem, they can perform a fix and then measure it's success or failiure. BT takes up to 72 hours to determine if a fix worked, due to their technology...

Anyway, goodbye idnet - best of luck with Fiber and a huge thank you to Rik and other idnetters for your advice and assistance. I really appreciate it.

All the best,
Matt

Simon · Sep 22, 2010, 22:01:09

Good luck, Matt! You'll always be welcome here, IDNet customer or not.

Rik · Sep 23, 2010, 08:32:05

Good luck, Matt, don't be a stranger. )