New IDNetter, Advice on speed?.

[TomSG]

Hey there,

Just recently got my service migrated from plusnet to over here at IDNet, I have a few questions regarding the speed I can/can't get.

So, I recently had my interleaving turned off, was giving me ping times of 100ms to my favourite servers, now there down to 60-70 so im happy with that. However, I have a few questions about my speed.

Here are some router stats

Connection Speed:     4128 kbps             448 kbps
Line Attenuation:       35 db                     9.5 db
Noise Margin:            7 db                       23 db


This is my most recent sync, now to me, 35db attenuation is fairly decent, and as far as im aware, should be able to support around a 6mb sync, and the noise margin seems ok, fluctuates to about 6-9db. Haven't really checked, ill look into it more. So, 4128 kbps sync seems a little low to say the least, I live in rural Scotland around 1.5miles from the exchange located in my village, exchange code: NSNDR. Only does 600 odd residential places and has never had any problems as far as im aware.
I use a netgear DG834v3 which truth be told is a little old now, is it possible the router may be causing the slow sync, or perhaps other factors im not aware of?. Internal wiring isnt brand new, but it all seems in good order, was replaced around 7 years ago when I used ISDN from BT. The master socket has the ringing wires disconnected and using the test socket doesn't make any difference, so I guess its not internal.

If anyone has any thoughts on what my actual speed should be and why I'd be very grateful, I'm thinking the router may be at fault, but don't have another to test without buying. Any light shed would be much appreciated.

[kinmel]

That connection rate is low, I am currently connected at 4192, but my Attenuation is 58.2 with a 6 SNR.

You seem to have covered all the likely causes, other than the router.

If you contact Support they may lend you a router to see if that helps.

Please do a series of speedtests using http://www.speedtester.bt.com.

[Ray]

  I can't add anything to Alan's advice.

[Glenn]

  Tom

[Rik]

Welcome to the forum, Tom.

Do you have a record of your previous router stats? How is the router connected to the phone line, ie master socket or extension, what other devices are on the line, eg Sky box?

[Simon]

  Tom.

[sof2er]

  Tom!

On my previous connection I used to have a 35db line with a 8128 synch, so something must be definitely wrong. I'd suggest lending a router and see if that makes any difference.

[TomSG]

Wow, thats good to hear, so somethings definately a miss then?.


I don't really have a log of previous router stats, the sync has always been very random, ive seen it sync at 7 before, but it doesnt hold for long I guess.
The router is plugged into the master socket via a short 1.5ft RJ11 cable, then 30m of ethernet cat5e upstairs to my computer. The only device that uses the line is the phone. It's just the router -> filter -> socket, with the phone plugged into the filter.

I found a spare router in my stash of electronic things, although it looks pretty nasty, a generic Conexant of some kind. I guess i'll give it a bash.  Is it possible that the DSLAM isn't letting me take 4 based on a bad 10 settle period that was formed probrably years ago?.

[Rik]

That router setup sounds fine. Can you run a BT test and paste the results back here?

[TomSG]

Download speedachieved during the test was - 3209 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :4128 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 3500 Kbps



Seems to be in check with the sync and IP profile.

The only problem here is the low sync.

[Rik]

That's spot on for the sync, the question is why is the sync so low. Given the age of your router, I'd be inclined to try another if you can borrow one from someone. Meantime, I'll see what I can find out.

[Rik]

Support have just reset your target margin down from 15db to 6db. This should take effect in 2-24 hours. Once this happens, you sync speed should follow and with it the profile. However, if the problem returns, there is definitely interference pickup and we'll need to do some digging.

[TomSG]

Thanks Rik! Really awesome help from everyone here.

I gave that generic router a shot, and look at this:

Speed           Latency        Speed                 Latency
448 Kbps       Fast             7072 Kbps             Fast

Now that's more like it! 

The question is though, for how long will this sync hold?.

I've really just accepted the speeds I've had for a years now without question, only recently have I thought about it.
Basically, If I'm right in thinking, I should be getting nearer 7mbit and than 4 right?. Seems a bit of a shock I've been all this time without my potential!.

[Rik]

Right, the 4M was way too slow and shows the havoc a router can wreak. Providing you don't get a high error count, then your speed should hold.

[Rik]

Just checked in with support, your line is already showing errors. Keep an eye on things and if the speed drops again, you may have to make a choice between fast path (low pings) and interleaved (stable line with higher sync speed).

[TomSG]

I'll take fastpath everytime, as my ping times are whats most important. Still, I'd be more than happy with a 5mbit sync, which should surely be achieveable seeing as how I can sync at 7.1. Everything seems stable so far, I'll post again if anything unexpected happens.

[Lance]

I wonder if a 9db noise margin on fastpath would give the balace required?

[Rik]

What Lance suggests may be a good compromise for you, Tom. Support can 'pin' the target NM at a level which will give a mixture of reasonable speed without interleaving.

[TomSG]

Ok, IP profile is still stuck at 4 so will wait for that to change, the sync is still holding at 7 with no problems. I'll give it a few days to see what comes of it. If its unstable. I'll contact support to see if I can set a good NM margin.

The support here has been phenomenal, honestly. Many thanks.

[Rik]

Our pleasure. The profile can take up to five days to shift.

[TomSG]

Updates.

The sync dropped around 10 minutes ago and I've resynced at 6112kbps. The noise margin is dangerously low at 1-2db!. What's up with this?. Anyway to make this more stable. I'd be quite happy with a 5-6sync. Surely this is achieveable, really dont understand whats causing the instability. Any suggestions on how to achieve this?.

[Simon]

Is there any noise on your phone line?  A 'quiet line' test may be useful.  Dial 17070, option 2, and you should just hear a low background hum.  Anything else, and you may have a problem with the line. 

[TomSG]

The quiet line test seems to be ok, I can hear a generic hum or buzz, but theres not crackles or pops, just a steady hum.

The sound margin is so low, went right down to 0db didnt lose sync though, perhaps its time to set a target DB of 9.

Oh yeah, im getting packet loss on servers too. 30 tick rate, and around 0-5 loss.

[tKe]

Hey, sorry to hijack your thread but it put me to thinking about my possible speed and I didn't want to flood the forum with another thread on the same topic (although different target).

I'm fairly happy with my current sync and speed but from the attenuation and noise margin I have I'm wondering if I can get the full 8Mbps profile.

Details (copied straight from my DG834v3):

Connection Speed	7264 kbps	672 kbps
Line Attenuation	4 db	2 db
Noise Margin	11 db	7 db

[TomSG]

You must live literally ON the exchange. You can achieve maximum for sure, however, your IP profile will give you 6.5mb at the moment, the best you can hope for is 7.5. Your only a meg off your maximum speed, is it really that important?. I suggest resyncing your router in the morning to see if you can get higher than your current 7.2. Once your router syncs higher, wait for your IP profile to change which will take some time and you'll have to hold this sync or resync higher to achieve the full speed.

[Rik]

Hey, sorry to hijack your thread but it put me to thinking about my possible speed and I didn't want to flood the forum with another thread on the same topic (although different target).

I'm fairly happy with my current sync and speed but from the attenuation and noise margin I have I'm wondering if I can get the full 8Mbps profile.

Details (copied straight from my DG834v3):

Connection Speed	7264 kbps	672 kbps
Line Attenuation	4 db	2 db
Noise Margin	11 db	7 db

I'd suggest a new router. Your u/s speed says you are on ADSL2+, and the DG834 v3 is a bit long in the tooth for that.

[Rik]

Updates.

The sync dropped around 10 minutes ago and I've resynced at 6112kbps. The noise margin is dangerously low at 1-2db!. What's up with this?. Anyway to make this more stable. I'd be quite happy with a 5-6sync. Surely this is achieveable, really dont understand whats causing the instability. Any suggestions on how to achieve this?.

Ways to make the line more stable... Find the source of the noise in the house if it is there. Use a battery-powered MW radio, de-tune it so you can only hear a hiss. Follow the phone wiring from where it enters the house to the router. If the noise increased, that's your interference. In you case, I think that asking for a target 9db noise margin might be a wise move if the radio reveals nothing local.

[TomSG]

Monitored everything in the night using router stats. My connection didn't drop, but the noise margin was between -2db and 2db the whole night, mostly at about 0db!?. Woke up this morning to find it must of resync'd at a still decent 6208. The noise margin is now between 6-9db, which is perfect right?. It's only in the evening and during the night the noise margin seems to drop to ridiculous levels. There's really not much electronic equipment in the house, except the phone, router, computer and a TV plus the usual stuff in the living room on the other side of the house. I'll check tonight with the radio, but I'm getting the feeling its really nothing on my end.

[Rik]

Is your line overhead or underground, Tom?

[TomSG]

Couldnt say for sure Rik, it runs from my house across my front yard, then to a pole, which seems to go underground, where it goes from there im not entirely sure, but I think it resurfaces about 3/4 of a mile up the road toward the village and runs directly from there into the village and to the exchange.

[Rik]

Increased noise at night is more of a problem with overhead lines, which is why I asked. Other potential sources include TVs, Sky boxes, low energy light bulbs, fluorescent lights. More 'sudden' disconnections tend to indicate equipment switching, eg heating, hot water etc. One other issue we've seen before is a neighbour using a treadmill which was poorly suppressed, but again (unless they are very energetic) that tends to produce periodic noise.

[sof2er]

On my old line my router would re-synch everytime someone used our threadmill at a high speed (and it would keep resynching every 2-3 minutes until the threadmill went off) this would happen with all the routers I had. The problem disappeared though after we swapped to VDSL2, it never lost synch anymore even when the threadmill is on.

[TomSG]

Ok, I phoned BT to get a line fault check, they said it was fine, however my internet was still connected, so not sure if the test was accurate. When i used the phone, my internet resynced at 6068, and the noise margin was very erratic, between 3 and 9DB. Poor filtering one would think?. I tried using each of my different filters to no avail. This isnt normal behaviour for a line, I think there is a fault somewhere.

[TomSG]

Ok, I've lost sync twice when the phoned was dialed now, just tested it. When I dial out on the phone, sync is lost. Just did it again, 10db noise margin went down to 2DB, the problem is clearly the phone.

So, do we have a case of interference, Phone is a wireless BT Synergy phone, or do we have a fault in my internal wiring?.

[Glenn]

Disconnect your phone, then call your number via a mobile, watch the router to see if it disconnects when the line rings, ideally do all the above, with the router in the test socket.

[Rik]

If it's OK without the phone, try use a wired phone and see what happens. Is the DECT base station near the router?

[TomSG]

Ok, the station was indeed right next to the router, 30cm or so. Moved the phone to the secondary socket upstairs well away from the phone, same disconnect when i rang out. Just unplugged the phone. Rang in, and no disconnect. Plugged the phone in rang in, no disconnect, BUT.. when i answered the phone, boom! disconnected. This is progress!. 100% the phone is at fault.

[Rik]

Go for a wired phone, Tom. If that is OK, then it looks like you've got to think about a new DECT unit. I've never had a problem with Panasonic, and you can get good deals on them at Costco if you have a local store.

[TomSG]

Ok, I've used the wired phone. No disconnect, the DB however did drop from 9 to around 6, so still minor intereference. There may be a small problem with the internal wiring, going to use the master socket and see what results it produces.

[Rik]

 

[Glenn]

John Lewis have a phone sale at the moment too http://www.hotukdeals.com/deals/john-lewis-digital-telephone-and-an/756532

[TomSG]

Oh dear... Master socket. Ringingout produces lower noise margin, looks like its not quite enough to drop the sync, but answering the phone causes the sync to be lost and the router to display an erratic noise margin, which I believe is a common bug with DG834's when the NM goes negative. Phone is causing the disconnects, but this has to be internal wiring or?.

EDIT: I should say test socket, sorry.

[Rik]

Possibly a rare type of line fault. Let support know what you've done to eliminate the issue and have them test the line.

[TomSG]

Before I do this, I opened up this little box thingy just where the line leaves the house. It just seems to be a joiner from outside line to inside. Low and behold, there was a spider and base camp inside! stealing my bandwidthz!. The little bugger had webs all inside it and what appeared to be previous lunches, mystified how hes managed this, but I promptly evicted him and proceeded to clean up the wires. But sadly to no avail. Still the same when dialing out and answering. Going to give support a ring now and see what they can come up with.

[Rik]

Don't mention the box, Tom, what you did was technically illegal. If you want to phone them on your mobile, so the line is freed up - 01462 480092.

[TomSG]

Gave them a brief over without mentioning the box of course. The chap seemed to be on the ball, said they were gonna get BT on the line and look into some more.

Just for information. I live rurally, as in, no neighbours. The front door of the house has a little window at the top, the phone line comes in at the top right, meets a little box on the wall, runs over the door frame to the living room and to the master socket, its basically about 6 feet of cable from outside to inside. The little box is in my house, and was very grubby, can't see what cleaning it up would do, all that was inside was some wire joiners and thats it. Do BT lay claim to everything past the master socket?.

[Glenn]

Yes, everything back from the test socket is BT's domain.

[tKe]

I'd suggest a new router. Your u/s speed says you are on ADSL2+, and the DG834 v3 is a bit long in the tooth for that.

I'm on ADSL+ (BT seem to ignore my exchange LSNUT and still don't have a date for ADSL2+ rollout) but have the Premium package, so should be able to reach (and have normally synced at) 832kbps up.

The router I have is borrowed from my dad, so I have no issue with forking out for my own - what would be recommended?

[Rik]

If you have an upstream speed of 672,  your line is noisy or you have an issue with internal wiring and/or the router. If your dad's router performs better then I'd suggest you consider a Speedtouch, or if you feel like splashing out a bit, a Draytek. With your proximity to the exchange, you really should be syncing at full speed.

[tKe]

I've manage to purloin a 2700hgv which has connected with the following:
Protocol:   G.DMT Annex A
Downstream Rate:   7616 kbps
Upstream Rate:   832 kbps
Channel:   Interleaved
Current Noise Margin:   14.0 dB (Downstream) 12.0 dB (Upstream)
Current Attenuation:   4.4 dB (Downstream) 3.0 dB (Upstream)
Current Output Power:   9.7 dBm (Downstream) 11.9 dBm (Upstream)

Do I really need Interleaving for a line with my attenuation?

[Rik]

You shouldn't. Do you live in the exchange?

[Steve]

Absolutely not,

[tKe]

The exchange is across the road 

I assume with those stats I should be getting full ADSL Max speed (and no interleaving)? If so what can I / IDNet do and who do I talk to?

[Rik]

Just ask support to have interleaving turned off.

[tKe]

Done, let's hope it stays off now I have a reliable router.

[Rik]

 

It should do, you have plenty of noise margin in hand.

[TomSG]

It's been a while, been using the test socket only, and have purchased a new router, its a DG834PN, I can get this router to sync at fine speeds to the exchange, and it never seems to lose sync, nor when the phone rings, so we can attribute that to a dodgy router. However, today was windy and rainy, and I got packet loss on an epic scale, 46 loss on a game server, and its constantly ticking around 1-2 loss which should be 0 tbh, this happened this evening for an hour or so, and my telephone had an intermittent crackling on it, so undoubtedly a fault on the line. This morning I was achieving full speed no problem, but later on afternoon and evening, and even now, my speed is so intermittent, one minute 1mb the next 4.

I made a graph at thinkbroadband which I started tonight. I resynced the router a few times and will do again in the morning, after which I will let it sit for a few days if it doesnt drop. 

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/share/350a0a8a1a3097f94011d381ce2b7e50.html   Looks pretty horrendous to me so far....

This seems to be an intermittent fault and I guarantee it will be impossible to get BT to admit fault and try to source the problem. I feel as if im cursed to have a poor connection forever.

      ADSL Link         Downstream         Upstream            
      Connection Speed          5184 kbps          448 kbps             
      Line Attenuation          36.0 db          18.0 db             
      Noise Margin          9.1 db          21.0 db

Tonights stats if your interested. Noise margin is pretty stable, holds at around 12 in the morning and drops down to around 8-9.                              

[Rik]

I resynced the router a few times and will do again in the morning, after which I will let it sit for a few days if it doesnt drop. 

Don't do that, Tom, you're likely to depress your profile.

[tKe]

Just thought I'd update on my connection...

Interleaving was turned off late monday eve, and my IP Profile has only upgraded yesterday.

Rate:   8128 kbs   832 kbs
Noise Margin:   16.0 dB   12.0 dB
Attenuation:   5.1 dB   4.0 dB

Attenuation is higher now, although I'm not sure if that's due to my 2wire upgrading itself to v6?

Either way I have 0 packet errors and 0 cell errors and only the odd uncorrectable block. Stats look good and the speed increase is much appreciated

Results of my new speed tests are in my sig  

As I'm sure you can guess, I'm very happy with the results.

Thanks to all who helped

[Steve]

Looking good.

[Bill]

Attenuation is higher now, although I'm not sure if that's due to my 2wire upgrading itself to v6?

Attenuation goes up somewhat as your sync speed increases- it's "averaged" over the frequencies in use and high frequencies are attenuated more than low ones.