Surge protection for ADSL

[Rik]

It's called asset stripping. Now, how do you like steaks...

[armadillo]

Simplistically,  the ADSL signal is split into lots of separate carrier frequencies and each of those can accommodate a number of data bits - some can take none and interference/noise shows up as low numbers.

Kind of like a discrete transform. I have a mathematical background but I do not know much about ADSL!

There is a free application that allows you to capture it on Netgear routers (but I cannot remember the name).

Do you recommend that I try to find it? I mean, if the with and without surge protector show different bit loading patterns, does that help us to decide what to do?

[Rik]

It does.

[armadillo]

It does, but if you get a power cut, then a surge or several switching blips when it comes back up, they can cause trouble, hence the UPS.

Yes, that makes sense. It is also of some concern. In the winter, we sometimes get six power outages in a day. They usually last no more than a few seconds though occasionally one lasts for a half hour. My PC is nicely protected by the UPS but the router is nowhere near it.

I suppose I could relocate the router to next to the PC and then run a cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router. Then I could power the router from the same UPS as the PC. Or I could get a small low powered UPS just for the router.

Before I started fussing about getting good performance, I had the router next to the PC and powered from the UPS. But the ADSL into the router was fed off a simple flat wire telephone connection 20 metres long. That was noisy so I was losing a lot of sync speed all the time.

I would rather not digress onto that issue in this thread, I am going to ask my question about sync, noise etc in another thread. I was hoping to keep this one about surge protection 

[armadillo]

If you power off 'gently', ie, at the power socket, the router will send a last 'dying gasp' to tell the exchange that all is OK.  In the event of a sudden power failure, as with a power cut, it won't.

Now, that I cannot understand. I would have thought that turning off the switch at the power socket is just as sudden for the router as a power cut. If it is going to send a "dying gasp" would it not do that using the last remains of power held in its own capacitors, or within the transformer rectifier smoother in the power adaptor? If so, I cannot really see any difference between a switch off and a power cut.

I can understand what Rik said about power surges when the power comes back after a cut. I can also imagine there may be surges before a power failure.

Anyway, I want to try to get back to my main point of surge protecting the phone line into the router.

My primary concern is avoiding sending a surge into the PC via the LAN cable and frying the motherboard.

The power into the router is surge protected by the Belkin unit. The telecom connection is not.

Loss of profile as a result of multiple power cuts is a secondary consideration but it would eventually recover. Whereas a fried motherboard doe not recover 

[Polchraine]

If you are having that many power interruptions during a day that could be a problem with sync.    Quite often the power may come back up a few times before being established and there may also be some very short interruptions that you do not notice but the router does.

Yes, definitely get the router onto the UPS and run a decent Cat5 extension to it.    You can get RJ11 to RJ11 plugs with 2 pair Cat5 cable - I use a short one here.

The BitLoading graphs may show something about what is happening - http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ is the software I was thinking of - check to see if your modem is supported or try it and see!


edit to add: 

V8.07 covers DG834GT/DG834NB/DG834PNB

[armadillo]

If you are having that many power interruptions during a day that could be a problem with sync.    Quite often the power may come back up a few times before being established and there may also be some very short interruptions that you do not notice but the router does.

Not getting any power interruptions at all at the moment. They tend to happen in January to March.

Yes, definitely get the router onto the UPS and run a decent Cat5 extension to it.    You can get RJ11 to RJ11 plugs with 2 pair Cat5 cable - I use a short one here.

Do I run the cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router? It would be about 20 metres long if I did that. Can I buy them ready made up at that length?

The BitLoading graphs may show something about what is happening - http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ is the software I was thinking of - check to see if your modem is supported or try it and see!

I shall give it a whirl after I have had some food 

[Steve]

The cable length between the adslrouter and master socket should be kept as short as possible, conversely running long lengths of ethernet cable from the router to network devices does not cause any issues.

[Polchraine]

The cable length between the adslrouter and master socket should be kept as short as possible, conversely running long lengths of ethernet cable from the router to network devices does not cause any issues.

Why?

The signal has already travelled several km so an extra 20m will not make a significant difference unless there are major noise sources.

[Steve]

To reduce the chances of noise being induced into adsl signal by the noisy house electrical environment. I would agree a shielded  twisted pair cable will reduce the chances but why take the risk when the ethernet link is relatively immune.

[Polchraine]

Do I run the cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router? It would be about 20 metres long if I did that. Can I buy them ready made up at that length?

Yes,  but you need to make sure it is Cat5e.     Or find a local shop that can make one for you ensuring you use the right pairs to pins.

[Polchraine]

To reduce the chances of noise being induced into adsl signal by the noisy house electrical environment. I would agree a shielded  twisted pair cable will reduce the chances but why take the risk when the ethernet link is relatively immune.

In this case he has no choice - router far away without UPS and power dropouts or close to te UPS and a small additional length of good quality twisted pair telephony wiring.     

[Ted]

To reduce the chances of noise being induced into adsl signal by the noisy house electrical environment. I would agree a shielded  twisted pair cable will reduce the chances but why take the risk when the ethernet link is relatively immune.

I'm just about to change my set up. Using a short, heavily shielded RJ11 to the router and cat6 STP cables to the PC's, I gain more than a decible in SNR, and also a small reduction in attenuation. This is over using a long shielded RJ11 and short cat5 cables. Syncing at 8128, so the higher I can get my SNR the better.

"Every little helps" 

[Tacitus]

Thanks Tacitus. That does look well worth trying out. From the description and the picture, that does not show what the female end looks like, I guess you plug the device between the microfilter's adsl out and the router cable. Yes? So the connection would go: BT master socket, to microfilter, to surge protector, to router?

The fly lead terminates in an RJ11 plug, the body takes a standard BT phone plug..  I plugged mine directly into the ADSL (RJ11) socket on a modified faceplate fitted to the main socket. 

As I said whether it stops any power surges is impossible to say.  I've never fried a router with or without it.   

[armadillo]

In this case he has no choice - router far away without UPS and power dropouts or close to te UPS and a small additional length of good quality twisted pair telephony wiring.     

Good summary!

You, Steve and Ted do not appear to agree but I think your summary indicates that I should try the long Cat5e cable.

[armadillo]

Do I run the cat 5 cable from the adsl side of the microfilter (at the BT master socket) to the router? It would be about 20 metres long if I did that. Can I buy them ready made up at that length?

Yes,  but you need to make sure it is Cat5e.     Or find a local shop that can make one for you ensuring you use the right pairs to pins.

OK. I looked at the on-line sites for usual supplier, like Maplin, Scan, specialist cable shops. None of them have 20m RJ11 to RJ11 with Cat5e. They have them with ordinary flat router cable (no good) or much shorter with Cat5e. Finding a local shop that both knows what I am asking for and does not argue about whether I need such a cable is probably a non-starter. There are hardly any computer type places round here and I am likely to be told all I need is a the flat lead modem cable.

So my only way would be to make one by buying the plugs, the cable and the crimping tool
Maplins
stranded cable

tool and plugs (including RJ45 that I don't need)

Then comes the matter of which pins and which wires. I believe I need only use the two centre pins on each plug?
I guess I take one twisted pair, eg 0range and white and connect that to the plugs in crossover mode. i.e. with both plugs connector side up, I'd have orange to the left centre pin and white to the right centre. On the other plug, white to left centre, orange to white centre. Is that correct? (When I look at a standard flat RJ11 to RJ11 flat lead, it is crossed over - side of cable with ridge is uppermost on top on one plug and underneath on the other one).


Mind you, I have never had any success with getting ordinary phone cable in ordinary phone plugs. The connectors never seem to penetrate the inner insulation and find the wire. Maybe I have never got a decent tool and maybe that Maplin's RJ11 one is OK.

Is this the way to go? Is it overkill for the one cable I will ever need to make?

[armadillo]

The fly lead terminates in an RJ11 plug, the body takes a standard BT phone plug..  I plugged mine directly into the ADSL (RJ11) socket on a modified faceplate fitted to the main socket. 

As I said whether it stops any power surges is impossible to say.  I've never fried a router with or without it.   

The Clarity website says:

"The adaptor block is a one piece RJ11 socket to a UK plug, so either kind of UK ADSL modem lead is catered for, and of course this also means you can fit it either at your line box or at the back of your modem."

I think (looking at their picture), that adaptor is what I would use to plug an RJ11 router cable into the body of the surge protector. If you plugged the surge protector straight into the ADSL (RJ11) socket on a modified faceplate and then plugged your router cable into the protector, you would either use that adaptor or else your router cable terminates in a standard BT phone plug?

I have no adsl outlet on my faceplate. The faceplate is not even a split one. The master socket is one of the very, very old, 50mm square single sockets.

Anyway, I would then be plugging a microfilter into the BT socket. Surge protector into the microfilter's RJ11 adsl socket. Phone-plug-to-RJ11-adaptor into the body of the surge protector. RJ11 Cat5e 20m cable into adaptor. Other end of 20m Cat5e RJ11 into router, which would be powered by my UPS.

Then, if the surge protector messes things up, I can just take it out of the circuit and plug the RJ11 cat5e straight into the adsl side of the microfilter.

This is getting a little tricky to keep on top of. 

[armadillo]

The BitLoading graphs may show something about what is happening - http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ is the software I was thinking of - check to see if your modem is supported or try it and see!


edit to add:  

V8.07 covers DG834GT/DG834NB/DG834PNB

I downloaded and tried v8.07.

I get "error: connection establishment failed. There is no server running on the given port (or won't answer)"

I am using the software's default of port 23. I have no idea why they use that port, what port I should change it to nor whether I should tell the router to allow it to use port 23, and if so, how to do that, nor if it will work even if it connects. My router is plain DG834, not GT, NB or PNB. Running firmware V5.01.16.

Any suggestions please?

And I thought I was asking a simple question on surge protection  

edit:

I have just found I can set it to do alternative telnet via port 80, whatever that means. Anyway, it now finds the router and displays standard stuff but not bitloading:

[Ted]

You can get a 20m RJ11 HERE

[Polchraine]

You can get a 20m RJ11 HERE

Is it Cat5e?   

[trophymick]

I had a computer rendered useless by lightning coming down the phone line, just heard a loud crack.
Cost me a new motherboard.
Have a UPS now, and I'm a bit less lax about thunder and lightning.

[Polchraine]

Armadillo,

The cable you link to is 4 pair Cat5e and you will have problems terminating that in an RJ11 (diameter may be too great).

So, give Maplin a miss for the cable and call FS Cables 01727 840841  and from them you will get Cat5 2 pair at 23p per metre - yes twenty three pence!   But their minimum order is normally 100M but try a bit of negotiation!   Their part number is C52HR  or C52EHR  http://www.fscables.com/dat-cat.php      You can then sell it on to others here if they need a length!

The connector will have 4 pins in positions 2,3,4,5 with 1 & 6 blank - commonly called a 6P4C  (6 pole 4 conductor).

Make the cable with the following at each end - which ensures that you use a twisted pair for the signal and NOT a spilt pair.

2 - Orange
3 - Blue
4 - White/Blue
5 - White/Orange

A lot of modern modems will auto detect inner/outer pair so there should be no need to swap around but you may find that you need to do change one end to:

2 - Blue
3 - Orange
4 - White/Orange
5 - White/Blue

But try the straight through first.

The tool:  http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=99612&C=SO&U=strat15  from Maplin is reasonable, or http://www.screwfix.com/prods/22799/Electrical-Supplies/Data-Networking/Tools/RJ45-Cut-Crimp-Strip-Tools is a better one but more expensive.

[Ted]

Is it Cat5e?   

I believe these cables are constructed to cat5e standards, the Pro+ has a foil shield but I don't think the 20m Pro cable has it.

[Polchraine]

I believe these cables are constructed to cat5e standards, the Pro+ has a foil shield but I don't think the 20m Pro cable has it.

If it is then it will save the hassle of making one - it would be wise for Armadillo to check with ADSL Nation first though.

[Ted]

If it is then it will save the hassle of making one - it would be wise for Armadillo to check with ADSL Nation first though.

I've emailed them for confirmation. It mentions on one of the cables, but not others.