Noise problems on internal wiring

[Tanzanite]

Ok, got someone to open it up, there's no test socket. Doesn't surprise me. I live in an old house (1800's) don't think the sockets have been changed for years and years. I know about 3 yrs ago I had a fault on the line and they changed wires but not sure if that was to the master socket or the one upstairs.

Electricity wiring near the phone socket upstairs was changed recently so that's all new.

So what's left for me to try? Just my other router on the main socket? If still no luck get BT out?

Oh and what is the best router to get incase I need to get yet another one? I have a BT voyager 2110 at mo, old one is a Thomson speedtouch. I've heard you can have probs with netgear and linksys are best.

[Rik]

By the way on the advanced tab on network connections there's a throughput enhancement thing, it was on disabled so I changed it to enable and speed was slightly faster. That's ok to do isn't it?

Well, it won't do any harm, Tanzy, but I have no idea what it does do, sorry.

[Rik]

Ok, got someone to open it up, there's no test socket. Doesn't surprise me. I live in an old house (1800's) don't think the sockets have been changed for years and years. I know about 3 yrs ago I had a fault on the line and they changed wires but not sure if that was to the master socket or the one upstairs.

Well, we know your options for testing are limited, so it'll save me asking you to try the test socket.

Electricity wiring near the phone socket upstairs was changed recently so that's all new.

How close is it to the socket and, more importantly, does is run parallel to the phone wiring, if so how close? That is potentially the source of noise pickup, if that's happening, it will force your sync speed lower and, ultimately your profile and throughput.

So what's left for me to try? Just my other router on the main socket? If still no luck get BT out?

If you can do it, it's worth trying, but the difference between the main socket and any extension is usually minimal - it's the test socket which has magic properties. If anyone can remove the bell wire (terminal 3) at both sockets, that might help things.

Oh and what is the best router to get incase I need to get yet another one? I have a BT voyager 2110 at mo, old one is a Thomson speedtouch. I've heard you can have probs with netgear and linksys are best.

I had problem with a Draytek when I moved to Max, and switched to a Netgear (it helps that they sponsor Northampton Saints ). IDNet supply Netgears, so they can't be too bad. That said, Max seems to have torn the rule book up on routers. I'd personally recommend Netgear and Speedtouch, however, other people like D-Links, Zyxels etc. It's unfortunately a case of finding what works best on your line. The theory is that if you can match the chipset used in the DSLAM your connected to, it will help. How true that is I have never been able to establish. In my case, my Netgear holds sync right down to a -4db noise margin. At -5db, it will re-sync. I have a neighbour with a Speedtouch which will not sync at 5db. Recommendations are, therefore, a bit of a minefield.

[Tanzanite]

The leccy socket is 12 inches away from the phone point but the leccy socket is on the skirting board and the phone point is just above the skirting on the wall. But yes they are both on a straight line apart from the phone point being slightly higher up than the leccy socket.

That leccy socket was rewired approx 3mths ago but I had the speed problems before then.

Thanks for your help.

[Rik]

That wiring arrangement is not ideal, Tanzy, preferably mains and phone wires should run at right angles to each other. However, if you had problems before the wiring work was done, then we need to investigate further. At this point, the best action you can take is to get the ring wire removed from terminal three on all sockets. It's usually, but not always, orange/white. If that makes a significant difference we know that your wiring is picking up noise. It may be enough to remove the ring wire, it may require more complex re-wiring.

[Tanzanite]

Hmm, no ones confident with removing wires and as most people aren't that techy I think most wouldn't do that so think I'll leave that sort of thing to BT.

I have my eye on this router but not sure if it's suitable, no mention of pppoa. What do you think? http://www.essanet.com/Shop/Specifications.asp?ProductID=4080

[Rik]

Hi Tanzy

In the broadest of terms, what part of the country are you in? It's possible that a member here might be reasonably near you and be able to help out.

As to the router, I personally would not buy a pre-N model myself, particularly when the spec is headed with:

"Wireless Capability

    * This product uses the draft version of the upcoming 802.11n standard. Its compatibility with other and future products is not guaranteed, and it may interfere with current 802.11b and g products. "

Belkins became very popular for a while with people using the DMT tool, but I see few reports on them now.

[Tanzanite]

I'm in Dorset, but it's fine don't worry, think I'll just get BT out.

I've looked at lots of routers but they all have reviews that don't recommend them, hard to know what to get unless reviews mostly say it's good. The Bt voyager one I have doesn't really cut it to be honest. It's a fairly large house with lots of walls and it's an old house and the signal barely reaches down the landing! Which is why I need one that can reach a long way. There's other pc's in the house and the signal is terrible.

[Rik]

Hi Tanzy

There might be someone who could help you, I'll ask around.

From what you say, you might need to consider a more complicated setup, with 'repeaters' around the house. If you only need access at a limited number of places, it might be better to wire the house with Cat 5 cable?

[Tanzanite]

Update:

After trying practically everything, I now have a new linksys router and I'm now getting this from the router:
Downstream Rate: 4128 kbps (improvement!)
Upstream Rate: 448 kbps
Downstream Margin: 15 db
Upstream Margin: 25 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 41 db
Upstream Line Attenuation: 11 db

Obviously this must be a better router for my line than my old ones. Though the sync speed used to be 5850-6500 when I first went on MAX so still not quite there yet.

However, BT test says this: IP profile for your line is - 1500 kbps
    DSL connection rate: 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)  4128 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
    Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1394 kbps

Which is worse than ever!

I am pretty sure I have isolated the problem, and it seems to be a faulty line as I have noise and echo (can hear my own voice) on the phone. I have plugged just the phone in and even bought a new phone and it's still there. I had this problem 3-4 yrs ago (when I wasn't on broadband) and they replaced the line, seems it needs doing again for some reason.

So next thing is BT......

[Rik]

Hi Tanzy

You sync speed, and therefore throughput, is being held artificially low by the d/s noise margin, which has been raised to the highest setting of 15db from 6db. This is almost certainly due to instability, ie repeated loss of connection. If you can maintain your connection, or at least avoid any low sync events, for three days, then your profile will increase to 3500.

To get back to your higher speed, you will need to get IDNet to have your target noise margin reduced again, but it isn't worth doing this until you have resolved the line problems. Whether that entails a BT engineer depends on what happens over the next few days. Remember that a low sync event or frequent disconnections will trigger downward movements of your profile, so watch for the former and avoid the latter, ie don't be tempted to re-boot the router every few minutes to try and improve things.

[Tanzanite]

How come everywhere I've read online says the higher the noise margin the better? That 29db is the optimum?

It's just disconnected and the sync speed has gone down again. Obviously not going to get sorted until the faulty lines fixed, just about to ring BT to test the line.

[Rik]

Hi Tanzy

A high noise margin was always the ideal for fixed-rate lines. Max, however, looks to work with as low a margin as it can, and then drive the speed higher. The noise margin will be determined by line stability.

It's no good calling BT yourself, except for voice faults. To get an ADSL-trained engineer, you need to ask IDNet to arrange the visit.

[Tanzanite]

Miriam told me to contact BT myself about the noisey phone part then if they can find no fault they will sort out the broadband on my behalf.

[Rik]

Makes sense, but don't mention broadband when you call the report in!

[Tanzanite]

I haven't, I remembered what you said before on some thread about not saying a word about BB! LOL

I reported the fault online instead of ringing and getting press 1 for this and 2 for that etc etc, yawn! At least I can keep an eye on it as and when I want to see if they're doing anything about it.

[Rik]

Good luck. In the meantime, you can try dialling 17070 and selecting the quiet line test - that may give you a clue on line quality.

[Tanzanite]

Ok, had BT just ring me, surprise surprise they can't find a fault. They then started saying try this, try that, I said I have done all that over the past week and he said sounds like you've tried everything and he's arranged an engineer to come out Mon afternoon.

Oh, never heard of that before, will give it a go, thanks.

[Rik]

Let's hope the engineer can find something. Hint that you would really like an NTE5... 

[Tanzanite]

LOL Will do!

I'm sure it would be much easier to move house than all this!

[Rik]

You may have a point there, Tanzy. I know when I move next, I'll be checking the BB connection before signing the contract.

[Tanzanite]

HELP!!! We DO have a test socket. Just plugged the router in it, these are the stats: Downstream Rate: 5248 kbps
Upstream Rate: 448 kbps
Downstream Margin: 14 db
Upstream Margin: 25 db
Downstream Line Attenuation: 43 db
Upstream Line Attenuation: 11 db

Also, plugging a phone in the test socket, there's no noise.

So what do I do now? I've made myself ill over all this, I'm exhausted. I've done everything so what's the problem then? I have no idea what to do.

[Rik]

You can let the voice visit go ahead to resolve any issues there might be on the line, but the difference in the sync speed plus the absence of noise suggests your internal wiring may be at the heart of your problems. Apart from disconnecting the ring wire, the best solution would involve re-wiring or moving the router to the test socket and then running Category 5 cabling to the computer, or trying to get wireless working throughout the house.

[Tanzanite]

It's not possible to have cables all over the house to the computers. I'm going to see if my Dad can remove the ring wire.

I don't see the point in having BT out when there's no noise on a phone and the routers stats are ok using the test socket, I can't afford a call out charge when it looks like it's something to do with my wiring. I just dont understand what's causing the noise when I have tried 4 lots of filters, 3 routers, 4 phones, unplugged everything except the router etc etc I just dont get it.

[Rik]

Hi Tanzy

Have a read through the internal wiring guide here. The problem is that, if your internal wiring is not well 'made' it can add attenuation and noise to the line, this will cause your ADSL to become unstable. Disconnecting the ring wire at every socket is a good place to start. However, if the noise on your phone is present when you are not using the test socket, try disconnecting the router. If the noise stops, chances are that you have a bad filter (though I know of cases where it's actually been a line fault).

How many wired extensions do you have? The more there are, the more noise they can put on the line. I know this is a very basic question, but you have remembered to filter everything that connects to the line haven't you? It's easy to forget, so I have to ask.