Potential new customer question:

[spring88]

I am considering switching from my current ISP (Nildram) for various reasons.
One of these is that as well as surfing the internet, downloading etc etc I like to play games online via my xbox 360. Unfortuntely I tend to suffer from lag quite a bit in online games (i usually have the worst connection in the game) and this seems to have got slightly worse in recent months. Also, pinging www.bbc.co.uk or www.google.co.uk in the last few weeks usually gives between 58-65ms whereas in the case of www.bbc.co.uk it was 52ms earlier in the year. The lowest ping i can get from the nearest speedtest.net servers is 57ms and its usually over 70ms- again I could sometimes gets less than 50ms earlier in the year

My question is whether I could expect substantially lower pings and a better gaming experience with either your Home Lite or Home Max packages than with my current ISP. To help answer this question I'm going to post a load of line stats and other information at the bottom of this message: 

Thanks in advance.

------


I'm with Nildram (or whatever they are now called) and about 2k from my rural local exchange which is non-llu. The exchange doesn't suffer from capacity/congestion problems or related issues. I use a netgear dg834 router and it is directly connected to an adsl nation faceplate. I have always had interleaving on my line. As of yesterday my snyc speed was 8032 and my IP Profile was 7000, I usually get speeds of 5-6.5mb on speedtest sites.

AR7 DSL Modem Statistics:
--------------------------------
[DSL Modem Stats]
        US Connection Rate:     832     DS Connection Rate:     8032
        DS Line Attenuation:    35      DS Margin:              4
        US Line Attenuation:    18      US Margin:              9
        US Payload :            464470704       DS Payload:             20915289
12
        US Superframe Cnt :     24724156        DS Superframe Cnt:      24724156
        US Transmit Power :     0       DS Transmit Power:      0
        LOS errors:             0       SEF errors:             0
        Errored Seconds:        0       Severely Err Secs:      0
        Frame mode:             3       Max Frame mode:         0
        Trained Path:           1       US Peak Cell Rate:      1962
        Trained Mode:           3       Selected Mode:          1
        ATUC Vendor Code:       54535443        ATUC Revision:  2
        Hybrid Selected:        1       Trellis:                1
        Showtime Count:         16      DS Max Attainable Bit Rate: 8032 kbps
        BitSwap:                1       US Max Attainable Bit Rate:     n/a
        Annex:                  AnxA    psd_mask_qualifier: 0x0000
        Power Management Status: L0     DS HLINSC: 0
        US ACTPSD:              -345    DS ACTPSD: -365
        Total init. errors:     1       Total init. timeouts: 0
        Showtime init. errors:  0       Showtime init. timeouts: 0
        Last showtime init. errors: 0   Last showtime init. timeouts: 0
        ATUC ghsVid:  b5 00 54 53 54 43 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00         T1413Rev: 00            VendorRev: 00
        ATUR ghsVid:  b5 00 54 53 54 43 00 00
        T1413Vid: 00 00 T1413Rev: 00    VendorRev: 00

        [Upstream (TX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    275     FEC:    23528   NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Interleave path]
        CRC:    21752   FEC:    8428072 NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Upstream (TX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    1
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

        [Downstream (RX) Fast path]
        CRC:    0       FEC:    0       NCD:    0
        LCD:    0       HEC:    0

[ATM Stats]
        [Upstream/TX]
        Good Cell Cnt:  9676473
        Idle Cell Cnt:  815084052

        Tx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Tx Bad Packets Count:   290

        [Downstream/RX)]
        Good Cell Cnt:  43573519
        Idle Cell Cnt:  3623253384
        Bad Hec Cell Cnt:       270620
        Overflow Dropped Cell Cnt:      0
        Rx Packets Dropped Count:       0
        Rx Bad Packets Count:   0


[SAR AAL5 Stats]
        Tx PDU's:       56339153
        Rx PDU's:       50719954
        Tx Total Bytes: 2078348441
        Rx Total Bytes: 3922497124
        Tx Total Error Counts:  0
        Rx Total Error Counts:  459


[OAM Stats]
        Near End F5 Loop Back Count:    0
        Near End F4 Loop Back Count:    0
        Far End F5 Loop Back Count:     0
        Far End F4 Loop Back Count:     0
        SAR OAM Ping Response Drop Count=0

----
Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.246.92] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=65ms TTL=53
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=53
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=53
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=64ms TTL=53

Ping statistics for 212.58.246.92:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 64ms, Maximum = 65ms, Average = 64ms

[DorsetBoy]

 


Given those stats and your line length I would expect pings to be less than that.  When I ran IDNet ADSL Max my pings were @ 18-22ms, my line is 1.62 K long and attenuation was@26.

I switched to an LLU service simply because I could get higher speeds and a b/width package that suited my needs better , I now have attenuation of 31 and pings of @ 25- 28ms.

Most people are very happy with the pings and stability for gaming at IDNet, they are a good ISP and as it is only a 1 month contract it would be well worth a try.

[Glenn]

 

On my line, with interleaving on, I normally get a ping to the BBC in the region of 25 - 30ms, I can't do a ping test at the moment, as I'm at work. Can you post a URL to any of the games servers that you use, then the helpful people here will be able to ping it for you, so you would have a direct comparison?

[Ray]

 

[spring88]

Thanks for replying.

Glenn: Unfortunately i don't know the url of the xbox 360 live game servers or my specific ping numbers to them. When i said i have the worse connection in the game I meant that if everyone in the lobby on a game like call of duty has 4 green bars next to their name, I'll have 3, if everyone has 4 or 3 green bars i'll always have 3 or maybe 2 etc etc. Is there a way of finding out the specific ping numbers on xbox live?

[Rik]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

On a 63db line attenuation, but fast path, these are my pings to the Beeb:

ping www.bbc.co.uk

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.244.70] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=56
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=13ms TTL=56
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=15ms TTL=56
Reply from 212.58.244.70: bytes=32 time=12ms TTL=56

Ping statistics for 212.58.244.70:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 12ms, Maximum = 15ms, Average = 13ms

[Steve]

 

Would it not be worth a try in getting interleave set to off.

[zappaDPJ]

Welcome to IDNetters 

[Simon]

[Lance]

Would it not be worth a try in getting interleave set to off.

Something I was going to suggest as well.

[pctech]

From what I've been able to find out about the technical aspects of XBL from folks on XBox.com Microsoft's servers match players up, the two or more machines they make a direct connection with one acting as a server rather than the PC model of PCs connecting to a central server.

The only thing that comes from Microsoft are any patches and trailers and these appear to be hosted on a content delivery network so you are connected to a node near you.

[spring88]

Thanks again for the replies.

I am reluctant to get interleaving turned off (this means going to fastpath doesn't it?) whilst with Nildram in case I need their help as I have recently had problems with their customer support. I spent an hour on the phone getting passed around before they resolved a very simple billing issue- half the people I was put through to didn't even know who or what "Nildram" was. I am also getting the impression my ping should be lower even with interleaving on my line so I'd like to see what results I get with a new ISP first before trying to get it turned off.

In regards to pings is there a any difference between the Home Lite and Home Max packages or is the main difference the download allowance? I should just about manage with 10gb peak time limit and don't really want to pay the extra £7 for the Max package?

Rik- you get an average 13ms to bbc with 63 line attenuation. I've read that interleaving adds 10-20ms so that means you'd probably still get less than 30ms to the bbc even with interleaving. I wonder why my pings are so high. :-(

[DorsetBoy]

The increase in ping time caused by interleaving will depend on the depth settings applied on your line. Given your synch rate I doubt interleaving is adding much to your pings.

I have interleaving on at depth 1 and my pings are @25ms. You could be looking at exchange, equipment,line condition , internal cables,router. Does your ping change dramatically if you test in safe mode?

[davej99]

I am considering switching from my current ISP (Nildram) for various reasons.

Nildram became Pipex became Tiscali became TalkTalk. TT tech support is not too crisp and they have 18 month contracts. Say no more.

Can't see IDNET being bettered if you are stuck with a BT line. Tech support is very good and contracts are one month. Say no more.

[Steve]

At least with IDNet any ping issues are usually BT related as IDNet's network is not congested, the Lite and max packages will have the same ping times, the supermax has exchange priority so ping times on the whole will be lower. One of Rik lines is on adsl2+ and I'm not sure which one he's quoting  but adsl2+ lines tend to have a lower ping time than the equivalent adslmax line.

[Glenn]

This is from my home PC, on a 60db line with interleaving on.

Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7600]
Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation.  All rights reserved.

ping www.bbc.co.uk

Pinging www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.246.92] with 32 bytes of data:
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=55
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=56
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=28ms TTL=56
Reply from 212.58.246.92: bytes=32 time=27ms TTL=56

Ping statistics for 212.58.246.92:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 27ms, Maximum = 30ms, Average = 28ms

[Rik]

Rik- you get an average 13ms to bbc with 63 line attenuation. I've read that interleaving adds 10-20ms so that means you'd probably still get less than 30ms to the bbc even with interleaving. I wonder why my pings are so high. :-(

My other line, interleaved, averages 24ms. Causes of high pings are legion, from low priority being given to ICMP traffic at the far end through routing problems, exchange congestion or ISP congestion. Even an incorrect MTU setting can have an impact.

[spring88]

>>You could be looking at exchange, equipment,line condition , internal cables,router. Does your ping change dramatically if you test in safe mode?>>

I tried pinging bbc.co.uk in Safe Mode and it made no difference. I use a short quality cable that goes directly from my router to the adsl faceplate with another one to my computer so I don't think its the cables. Funnily enough I don't think my pings are any better than when i used to have long cables and various filters everywhere.

Thanks for the replies. I am probably going to move to Idnet as it should at least clear up whether or not the ISP is contributing to my high pings and the monthly contract means I don't have much to lose.

Two more questions:

1. What happens if I hit the 10gb peak cap on Lite? Do I i get some sort of warning that i have gone over the limit before I start getting charged £1 per gb?
2. Can I log into my account and see how much I am using online so I don't go over the limit without realising it?

[Glenn]

Two more questions:

1. What happens if I hit the 10gb peak cap on Lite? Do I i get some sort of warning that i have gone over the limit before I start getting charged £1 per gb?
2. Can I log into my account and see how much I am using online so I don't go over the limit without realising it?

1. As you approach your limit, an email will be sent advising you.

2. Yes, you will have access to your own account details online, part of which details the amount of data used each day.

[Lance]

You can also track your usage using a RSS feed.

[Rik]

What Lance and Glenn said.

[Tacitus]

Another set of pings @ 56dB attn:

PING bbc.co.uk (212.58.224.138): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=0 ttl=120 time=32.284 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=1 ttl=121 time=31.345 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=2 ttl=121 time=30.751 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=3 ttl=121 time=30.088 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=4 ttl=121 time=31.203 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=5 ttl=121 time=30.431 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=6 ttl=121 time=29.759 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=7 ttl=121 time=31.082 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=8 ttl=121 time=30.539 ms
64 bytes from 212.58.224.138: icmp_seq=9 ttl=121 time=29.782 ms

--- bbc.co.uk ping statistics ---
10 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 29.759/30.726/32.284/0.743 ms

I've been with iDNet for just over 12 months and apart from a blip which was soon rectified by support, these have been pretty constant.  Interleave is on, but I couldn't tell you at what depth - I imagine given the line quality that it is pretty significant.

[spring88]

I have a few more questions for you guys.

1)I received an e-mail from IDNET last week saying I was due to be migrated to IDNET yesterday (monday) by 6pm.

By about 5:50pm the internet was still working fine with my old ISP log in and password so I assumed I hadn't yet been migrated. I went to speedtest.net to run a test and was surprised to find my download speed was very poor (2mb) whilst my upload speed was half what it normally is (my new IDNET package has an upstream of 448kbs, half that of Nildram) although the test still said my ISP was Tiscali (it always says that even though I'm with Nildram).
I then logged into my router and noticed that my upstream noise margin was showing 24db instead of the usual 10db. Even if I hadn't been migrated *something* had happened so I changed my ISP password/and username in my router from Nildram to IDNET and clicked "apply". Loading up my browser i was surprised to find the internet still working. I ran another speedtest.net test and this time it said my ISP was IDNET. My download speed was back to the usual 6mb+ and the upload speed was still half what it normally was as I would expect due to the upstream of the IDNET package being capped at 448kbs.

Had I been previously succesfully connected to the internet via my Nildram username/password even though i had already been migrated to Idnet? When i originally logged into my router to change my password/username the only activity in the router log was from 4am Monday morning in the form of "LCP down/Initialize LCP/LCP is allowed to come up/CHAP authentication". Looking again in the router log it now shows a similar sequence at 5:55pm Monday afternoon which was around the time i changed over password/username and in between the running of the two speedtests. Was it that the migration had coincidentally occurred whilst I was running the speedtest/changing my router settings and this is what the "LCP down...etc" was caused by? Or was that message just caused by me changing password/username and clicking "apply" and the 4am activity or another time was actually when i was migrated?

I always assumed migration involved my previous ISP settings permanently ceasing to work, (followed by several minutes of no internet?) followed by the new the new ISP connection working but it seems like there was some sort of overlapping.

2) Is there any advantage/disadvantage to inputting the recommended Domain Name Servers (212.69.36.3/212.69.40.3) in my router settings rather than just selecting "get automatically from ISP". I currently have "Get automatically from ISP" selected- looking at my Router Status these two addresses seem to have been automatically selected anyway.

3) I assume the big rise in upstream noise margin is due to the upstream sync speed being reduced from 832kbs on Nildram to 448kbs on Idnet? From what I understand the lower the speed the router syncs the higher the margin and vice versa.

Thanks in advance.

[Rik]

There is usually a short period of overlap when you migrate, during which you can log into either ISP, spring. After that, BT cut off your privileges.

2) Assuming Windows, I would advise manually setting DNS in the network connection of each machine. That way, you can switch at any time without forcing a resync. Handy if there's ever an issue with the servers.

3) Yes, as the upstream speed is lowered, the noise margin will rise.

[spring88]

>>>>2) Assuming Windows, I would advise manually setting DNS in the network connection of each machine. That way, you can switch at any time without forcing a resync. Handy if there's ever an issue with the servers.<<<<<<

Thanks for the reply Rik.

2) Yes, I'm using Windows XP. When you say "I would advise manually setting DNS in the network connection of each machine" do you mean going: Windows Control Panel>Network connections>Local Area connections>properties>Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)>properties> and then select "Use the following DNS server addresses" and inputting the two addresses given by IDNET?
When you say "you can switch at any time without forcing a resync" do you mean that if I manually change the DNS servers in my router it will cause my line to resync but if i enter them via the Windows control panel I can change them without my line resyncing?

I am also wondering what happens if i have the "get automatically" DNS option selected in my router whilst at the same time having the DNS manually entered via the Windows Control panel or vice versa . Does the automatic/manual DNS server option selected via the Windows Control Panel overide the option selected in the routers settings or vice versa?

I think I need to read up a bit about DNS servers so I get a better idea of how they work. :-)