Talk talk LLU vs IDnet

gazzthompson · Jan 12, 2011, 18:13:05

Just had a Talk talk rep around , they unbundled my exchange and are offering 24meg :

http://www.samknows.com/broadband/exchange/EAWTN

I caved at the sound of epic 24meg speeds , but im on a 50 day trial and will ring up ASAP and quiz them on their service. Question, he said idnet will ring us. Will they? will they be able to offer a LLU service ? how does that work?

Whats the current news on Talk talks LLU ? any good? i want to stay with IDnet, best ISP ive had (had few problems last few weeks but still).

Rik · Jan 12, 2011, 18:17:00

IDNet will not, at present, be able to offer you an LLU service. They should contact you to confirm you want to go, though. As to TT, I've got no personal experience, it might be worth spending some time in their board on ThinkBroadband to get a feel for the service.

gazzthompson · Jan 12, 2011, 18:23:33

That sucks about IDnet , i really dont want to leave...

Rik · Jan 12, 2011, 18:43:09

To do LLU, you have to be (a) big or (b) sell someone else's service, as with BT services. The problem for an ISP is that selling an LLU service which is not universally available makes their packages very complex.

Tacitus · Jan 12, 2011, 18:44:37

How far are you from the exchange? TT may offer 24Meg speeds but if you are some distance from the exchange or on a poor quality line, the likelihood is you won't get them....

Rik · Jan 12, 2011, 18:45:01

Good point, Tac.

gazzthompson · Jan 12, 2011, 18:49:26

A mile as the crow flies.

Rik · Jan 12, 2011, 18:52:37

What's your line attenuation, current sync speed and noise margin?

pctech · Jan 12, 2011, 18:54:43

Tac is right, ADSL is ADSL when all is said and done, no matter who provides it, ir's wireless over wires.

gazzthompson · Jan 12, 2011, 18:57:26

how do i find them out please ?

I guess its worth the try though, 50 day trial

Rik · Jan 12, 2011, 19:03:16

Which router, Gazz?

gazzthompson · Jan 12, 2011, 19:04:14

dg834gt

Rik · Jan 12, 2011, 19:05:26

From the web interface http://192.168.0.1
> Router Status
> "Show Statistics" Button

alternatively click this link --> Show Statistics.

Default username = admin, password = password

DorsetBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 19:07:13

Big thing with TT LLU is the lock in to a long contract and unless things have changed you need to move your phone to them too.

gazzthompson · Jan 12, 2011, 19:08:35

Phone we dont care about, contract we do....

System Up Time 557:32:26
Port   Status   TxPkts   RxPkts   Collisions   Tx B/s   Rx B/s   Up Time
WAN   PPPoA   59302847   92028169   0   2089   1464   557:31:38
LAN   10M/100M   73536777   46929906   0   859   1540   557:32:21
WLAN   11M/54M   21563152   14985756   0   1770   1434   557:32:16

ADSL Link   Downstream   Upstream
Connection Speed   5024 kbps   832 kbps
Line Attenuation   38.0 db   23.0 db
Noise Margin   9.2 db   10.0 db

DorsetBoy · Jan 12, 2011, 19:19:12

Using BlueEthers stats estimator you are only going to see a synch of @ 10MB at most giving a throughput of 9MB max and that is assuming no local noise issues.

http://adsl.tin2tin.net/stats.php

kinmel · Jan 13, 2011, 08:12:34

Remember that Sky have a base noise margin of 7db against 3db on BT's ADSL2+ and that will hit the sync rate.

Moving back to a BT line from LLU is not as simple as moving from one ISP to another with a MAC code and is expensive too.

Tacitus · Jan 13, 2011, 08:35:04

You might wish to look at this thread over on TB. The original Daily Mail article is here.

Good luck......

DorsetBoy · Jan 13, 2011, 08:37:12

Quote from: kinmel on Jan 13, 2011, 08:12:34
Remember that Sky have a base noise margin of 7db against 3db on BT's ADSL2+ and that will hit the sync rate.

Moving back to a BT line from LLU is not as simple as moving from one ISP to another with a MAC code and is expensive too.

Noise margin and attenuation are slightly higher on LLU but then the service tends to be a lot more stable than any BT based service.

Moving back from full LLU is costly, using shared LLU (phone stays with BT, BB goes LLU) the move back is a lot less expensive.

DorsetBoy · Jan 13, 2011, 08:41:57

Quote from: Tacitus on Jan 13, 2011, 08:35:04
You might wish to look at this thread over on TB. The original Daily Mail article is here.

Good luck......

TT retail are a nightmare, funny that the CPW/TISCALI/ TT wholesale are so much better. The sales team are all totally clueless and will tell you anything to get a sale.

I have had them here,they know nothing at all about broadband. The 2 muppets I had here insisted that "even if the phone line was 10 miles long their accelerators meant that all users get the full 24mb throughput."

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 08:55:22

Once bought an aerial for an Ericsson phone from CPW, according to their site it was the correct part (for an S868)

They sent me an Aerial for an A1018 which had a different fitting so rang up their so called Customer Services and told them that the listing was wrong and I had been sent the wrong part.

CS muppet gave the following priceless response 'what do you want me to do about it?'

I went to the local store and demanded to see the Manager and told him, he was very apologetic, looked on the site and on his stock control to see if he could source me the part I needed and told me they did not sell them anymore and refunded me straight away.

If that's not all bought a SIM free Motorola V600 from them and was told it would be delivered on a Saturday, one of my folks waited in all day as I was working, no show, checked on the courirer's tracking and it was scheduled for Tuesday.

Mailed CPW and got zero response, not even an apology for their cock up.

Truly awful company.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 09:50:22

Thanks for the posts and help guys. the sales rep said i can leave anytime during first 50 days. Im having no luck finding this written down online ? any help?

I will no doubt come back to idnet , unless its constant 8meg + i wont bother.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 09:51:33

Hmmm, wonder if its a sales ploy.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 09:57:45

I dont trust any sales.

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 09:59:32

Very wise.

DorsetBoy · Jan 13, 2011, 10:13:15

Don't you have a cooling off period, this is a doorstep sale and I don't think they can enforce it till you have "x" days to reconsider.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 10:14:59

I hope so, i need to find out for sure.

Glenn · Jan 13, 2011, 10:18:27

Gazz take a look here http://whatconsumer.co.uk/doorstep-selling/

Technical Ben · Jan 13, 2011, 10:37:26

Quote from: pctech on Jan 13, 2011, 09:51:33
Hmmm, wonder if its a sales ploy.

O2 continually told me their "evening disconnect/throughput problems"* would be solved in a months time. Guess when the cancellation date expired? A months time. I was not taking the risk. I cancelled. 6 months later, they still had a problem on their network. Glad I did not fall for the empty promises used to keep me on the hook. I later found out it was the same line used by the sales/customer services for the last 2 years!!! 2 years of "we will fix it next month".

I cannot comment on TalkTalk though. I hear their internet speed and reliability is good. However the comments on their customer service put them in the same boat as Abbey and the likes. It is the only thing that prevents me from migrating (other than the contract length

). Hope you never meet such problems!

_{*caused by a failure to purchase the correct amount of lines/bandwidth from BT. Or failure to manage the load on their network, whatever way you look at it.}

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 10:39:55

O2/BE are liars just like TalkTalk.

O2 should stick to what they excel at and thats running a mobile network.

Technical Ben · Jan 13, 2011, 11:15:08

It is strange pctech. I have only ever used O2 for my phones (Except maybe my first pay as you go might have been orange when I was 15).
O2 were always honest. Took the benefit of the doubt, and usually any errors they amend even at cost to themselves. They offered cheap, or at least competitive prices and plans. Clear and concise. Monthly contract sim only deals as market leading and such like.
But the broadband side of the business is the complete opposite.

Simon · Jan 13, 2011, 11:19:19

The dangers of trying to be all things to everyone? If companies concentrated on what they were best at, consumers might benefit all round.

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 11:20:15

I'm best at eating. Excuse me while I go and concentrate.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 11:24:05

I was on 02 before IDnet.... *shudders*

Simon · Jan 13, 2011, 11:24:15

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 11:25:09

Quote from: gazzthompson on Jan 13, 2011, 11:24:05
I was on 02 before IDnet.... *shudders*

Just take it a day at a time, Gazz, you'll get over it eventually.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 11:51:19

I suspect it was the employee I dealt with but claimed under their guarantee because the line was unstable, they told me they'd refunded me the 7.50 charge but found nothing on my bank acount, he then demanded I send in bank statements which in any case I'd have had to pay for (smile charge 2.50 per page) and asked me to send them to a 'Mark' but would not give a surname or tell me whether he was a Supervisor or Manager.

I smelt a rat TBH and it would have costed me more so let it drop.

Been on O2 PAYG for over four years and absolutely agree they are superb. I even changed my mind on a bolt on and they refunded me the credit as a gesture of goodwill.

Tacitus · Jan 13, 2011, 12:27:46

I must admit I do know a couple of people on TT and they are well satisfied. However, they are the sort of people for whom cost is the major consideration and, who wouldn't know a dB from an onion. So long as it works at all, they regard the service as satisfactory.

The real problems start when something goes wrong and you need to contact the call centre. After that it's pure luck of the draw whether you get a script muppet or someone that knows what they're talking about.

YMMV of course

Regarding CPW wholesale, I too find it surprising that many knowledgeable people find it much superior to the vanilla TT. Certainly in the unlikely event that iDNet were to offer a service based on that, I would be willing to give it a try since TT is the only viable LLU on my exchange.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 12:41:26

I've used cheap ISPs in the past and you definitely get what you pay for.

DorsetBoy · Jan 13, 2011, 13:21:54

The one big advantage of the LLU service through Tiscali/CPW wholesale is that you do not get the peak time drops in speed. All those periods of bad weather over Christmas where the net was being hit hard many on a BT based service were seeing bad speeds,my neighbours were maoning but our LLU was not affected at all.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 13:37:29

Indeed Dorset.

No problem with using wholesale to deliver traffic to my chosen ISP but would not use TT or O2/BE's own service.

Sadly I don't live in Rochdale or Leeds where Zen have unbundled some of the exchanges and backhaul the traffic over WDM fibre.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 14:15:55

http://www.talktalk.co.uk/legal/30-day-trial/

30 day trial i guess. will try for abit then, see what happens.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 14:55:42

Change of plans, Looked into it and im going to cancel it before it happens, just too risky for a 24 month contract ..

Also i rang Talk talk support for a definite answer on trafficing at all, the girl didn't know what "traffic shaping" was...

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 15:44:02

I'm not altogether surprised - they found the script too hard to write.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 15:51:09

Not surprising to a Carphone Warehouse member of staff (no matter what they call the division) is clueless.

Go in and ask them about a technical aspect of a mobile phone service, they look blank but then again ask Virgin Mobile store staff about a coverage issue and they look just as blank.

Glenn · Jan 13, 2011, 15:56:18

The Three Indian call centre denied there was a problem with a transmission mast, even when they were presented with the work order number to replace the hardware controlling it.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 15:59:31

working as a mod on 3G.co.uk was a real eye opener about three, heard lots of stuff so that didn't siurprise me one bit.

gazzthompson · Jan 13, 2011, 16:03:58

Going to look into :

http://www.xilo.net/adsl_broadband/#pro
http://www.vivaciti.net/index.php

When i get home.

Glenn · Jan 13, 2011, 16:10:06

Ericsson took over running their network 5 years ago, in their wisdom, Ericsson have been 'upgrading' the hardware that controls each mast. Now to do a soft reboot of the boxes an engineer has to be sent out to do it manually, rather than remotely as before.

armadillo · Jan 13, 2011, 16:10:50

Quote from: Tacitus on Jan 13, 2011, 08:35:04
You might wish to look at this thread over on TB. The original Daily Mail article is here.

Good article.

I agree with the "top" two choices.I would have nothing to do with TT, no matter how short the contract nor how low the price.

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 16:12:57

Quote from: Glenn on Jan 13, 2011, 16:10:06
Ericsson took over running their network 5 years ago, in their wisdom, Ericsson have been 'upgrading' the hardware that controls each mast. Now to do a soft reboot of the boxes an engineer has to be sent out to do it manually, rather than remotely as before.

Smart thinking.

Did they ever explain their decision?

armadillo · Jan 13, 2011, 16:15:03

Quote from: gazzthompson on Jan 13, 2011, 14:55:42
Change of plans, Looked into it and im going to cancel it before it happens, just too risky for a 24 month contract ..

Good decision. They are nothing but frustration. Get written confirmation from them that you have no contract.

Glenn · Jan 13, 2011, 16:18:30

Quote from: Rik on Jan 13, 2011, 16:12:57
Smart thinking. Did they ever explain their decision?

All I have been told from the engineers I see, is, the Ericsson controllers are cheaper then the Nokia equipment they are replacing. So money speaking again.

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 16:20:06

Presumably, it's not costed 'end to end'?

Glenn · Jan 13, 2011, 16:22:30

The way Ericsson seem to work, sometimes I'm surprised it even works. They are now taking on work from Vodafone and T-Mobile

Rik · Jan 13, 2011, 16:24:49

Oh dear.

pctech · Jan 13, 2011, 17:52:16

Interestingly Nokia Siemens Networks are in the process of acquiring Motorola's mobile networks division

I wonder why, if their handsets are anything to go by cant think there's much to gain, the two I've used, the C350 and V600 were dire.

the 350's keypad was painful to use to text and the V600's software used to stop aceepting SMS when it felt like it even though the memory was clear.

Intelligence Everywhere? I dread to think what would happen if they did try and build an intelligent device.