Broadband drops when phone rings

[lozcart]

I wonder if anyone has any ideas on what I can try next regarding a problem I've had since the new year.

I found from my router log (2-wire 2700) that in early January 90% of the time my phone rang my broadband connection was dropping. I checked the wiring and replaced the filters on both router and phone a couple of times but to no avail.

I contacted Idnet who ran some line tests which they said showed a fault, they reported this to BT. A couple of days later my broadband dropped a few times while BT where messing with my line and then settled down. BT reported the problem was fixed. For the next couple of days the problem do seem to have been sorted, only to return again.

Both Idnet and myself monitored the connection and found it was still happening when the phone was called, Idnet contacted BT who arranged a home visit. The engineer came didn't test for symptoms just said "it will be your wiring mate, we will change the faceplate" and so a filtered faceplate was fitted. He then tested his work called the phone and guess what my broadband dropped. He then went on to say the 2700 was a business router and might not be compatible with a domestic line but said he would check my connection at the exchange. He called me half an hour later saying my line was fine and it must be the 2700. Idnet have told me BT want to charge me for this visit.

This got me thinking maybe the 2700 had developed a fault, I got my old Belkin from the loft and connected it up, the broadband didn't disconnect when the phone was called, so assumed the 2700 must be faulty. Today a received a brand new sealed 2700 from ebay and set it up, tested it and this also drops the broadband connection when the phone rings. Set up the Belkin again and it's fine.

Could there be some incompatibility problems with the 2700, I do doubt this as I've used one for the last 8 months with no problems or are there other sinister forces at work.

I will contact Idnet again tomorrow but has anyone any ideas on what else I could try.

[Rik]

It's odd. That problem is normally caused by filters, and if you've changed them, unless you've been very unlucky, then they shouldn't be part of the equation anymore. What make did you use?

The fact that it's affecting 2 2700s but not the Belkin is puzzling me. A router is a router is a router, whether you have a domestic or business service, so I feel that's a red herring. What shows on the DSL Diagnostics page of the 2700 against the drop in sync?

I fear you may have to pay the BT charge, unfortunately, as it does appear to be an issue with your equipment, the puzzle is what.

[lozcart]

I've been using the BT filters that come with the 2700. Currently the router is connected directly to the new filtered face plate and the phone via a filter to an extension socket.

If I disconnect the phone from the socket and then ring the line the broadband also drops then. When the line drops it reports ERR LOSS LIMIT.

The drops are killing my connection my noise margin was at 3.0 before the problems it's now up to 15.0 so my sync is suffering.

[Steve]

Have you tried the 2 wire in the test socket with no phone connected?

[lozcart]

I tried it in the test socket before it was upgraded to a filtered faceplate and it still dropped.

I not sure if there is a test socket behind the BT filtered plate, does anyone know?

[Steve]

Could be the same original backplate,either way the lower half should be removable and the test socket should be behind.

[lozcart]

I've spoken to Brian at Idnet and he thinks it may be some incompatibility between the 2wire and the exchange equipment. He is sending me a Netgear test router so we can if it replicates the problem.

[Rik]

Sounds a sensible move.

[MisterW]

On the 'DSL Diagnostics' does the 2700 show OK against Uncancelled Echo and Impulse Noise as in the example below ?

Uncancelled Echo:    -19.3 dB    Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset:    24.1 ppm    Ok
Final Rx Gain:    2.6 dB    Ok
Impulse Noise Comp. Tones:    0    Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise:    0    Ok

[lozcart]

Both say ok and are as follows

Uncancelled Echo -8.6 db
Impulse noise 0

I did notice after one sync earlier in the week the uncancelled echo advised to check filters, this cleared after a reconnection.

[lozcart]

Carried out a few more tests and can confirm the connection still drops when connected to the test socket.

One thing I did notice is if you answer the phone within 3-4 rings the connection usually holds, the longer I leave it ringing the more chance of the connection dropping, not sure if this is relevant.

[MisterW]

I'm not convinced about that uncancelled echo , -8db is not that brilliant I don't think. I'll check mine at home later but I've a feeling that it should be around -20db normally. It might be that you have a marginal fault on the line which is being highlighted when the phone rings. Netgear routers are pretty good at hanging on to a connection at very low SNR (close to zero) values for short periods whereas the 2700 will tend to drop it fairly quickly below about 3db.

[Rik]

Mine is -24.7.

[MisterW]

Mine is -15.8 at home. Assuming the negative number refers to the level of echo BELOW the signal then -8db is not that good and might indicate a problem. As Rik said earlier, normally the uncancelled echo is caused by faulty/missing filters but we seem to have eliminated that so it may just be a line fault, but proving it...

[lozcart]

I can't be 100% sure but I seem to remember my uncancelled error was around -14 or -15 before I experienced the problem, so we might be on to something.

My noise margin when the connection drops indicated on the DSL page is around 15 to 15.4 so it wouldn't appear to be the noise margin causing the drop.

Are the uncancelled error and the noise margin related?

[Rik]

Only indirectly.

[lozcart]

Isn't this just typical  

Received the Netgear router from Idnet this morning (great service)  

Was going to set it up but thought I would ring the line to see what was happening with the 2700, I have called it at least seven times and the 2700 has held the connection every time. Yesterday when I tested it it dropped every time. This happened a few weeks back when the line seemed to settle for a few days only for the problem to reoccur. My uncancelled echo is still -9.5db.

Not sure now what to do except to keep the 2700 connected and monitor it, if the problem comes back then try the Netgear.

I'm confused  

[Rik]

Difficult call. I think I'd be inclined to test with the Netgear for a couple of days, then switch back and see if the problem returns. If it does, go back to the Netgear again.

[lozcart]

Looking at my stats for my current connection which has now held for 24hrs there is one area which is vastly different from my previous connections, this is my upstream stats.

It currently shows connection at 770 with noise margin 11.5, all my previous upstream connections have been in the range of 944 with noise margin of 5.0.

Would this be significant in the line holding connection when I dial it.

[Rik]

It shouldn't be, but it could indicate an improvement in line condition.

[lozcart]

I must have called my line over 30 times over the weekend with the 2wire attached and it never dropped once. I came home at lunchtime today and tested again, first time I called the line dropped the connection which had been solid for three days.

Unpacked the Netgear test router and set it up. Called the line and the connection dropped after 5-6 rings. Waited for reconnection and tested again, line dropped immediately the phone was called, same again the next time.

Contacted Idnet who are bouncing the problem back it BT again.

[Rik]

This is weird.

[lozcart]

It certainly is, its the inconsistent nature of the problem which baffles me.

[klipp]

I had this exact same problem and managed to fix it by double filtering my telephone.

[Rik]

Has to be worth a try, thanks klipp. 

[armadillo]

I can't see the relevance of filters to a line that drops with incoming calls even when no phone is connected. That has to be either a line fault or a router fault.

[Glenn]

I had a similar problem, which was caused by the line shorting to earth when the phone rang.

[lozcart]

I had this exact same problem and managed to fix it by double filtering my telephone.

Thanks Klipp, I've tried double filters on my phone but it hasn't helped 

[lozcart]

My line dropped and reconnected today when I had a phone call, with the reconnection the reported uncanceled echo is +2!!

[Rik]

Any word back from BT?

[lozcart]

No Rik, nothing as yet.

[Rik]

 

[lozcart]

I've still got the same problem. BT have apparently run tests on the line and are reporting it's ok.

IDnet are pushing it back to BT to arrange another engineer visit.

[Rik]

BT are being dense.

[lozcart]

BT are coming again on Wednesday, hopefully this time the engineer will actually listen to what the problem is and to what has already been tried in attempting to solve it. The last engineer was determined to blame the fault on my wiring/equipment.   

[Rik]

We'll keep our toes crossed for you.

[lozcart]

I've got a much better engineer out this time who listens and is determined to find a solution to the problem, but so far he hasn't resolved it.

He has picked up the fault but can't find a cause, when the phone rings he is getting lots of CRC errors. He has traced the line from the house to the green cabinet and can't find a fault. He has tried three new lines from the cabinet to the exchange with no improvement. He has done a lift and shift of the line in the exchange still no joy, he has just allocated the line a new number, tested still not right.

I'm not sure on his next plan of action I'm waiting for a call, at least he confirms there is a fault on the BT side of the connection.

He tells me he can replicate the fault outside my neighbours house in the road but not at the cabinet, this to me would indicate the fault is between my house and the cabinet but he doesn't think so. I'll update what happens later.

[Rik]

Sounds like you've got someone with a bit of nouse.

[Glenn]

A BT engineer that has pride in his workmanship.

[lozcart]

Still not sorted, BT have now given up and fired it back to IDnet to run some tests. The results of those will determine their next action. The engineer said this is the first time he hadn't sorted a problem but thought the fault was between the exchange and the green cabinet.

During all this my uncancelled echo has been up and down like a fiddlers elbow ranging from +6 to -17 I asked the engineer about this value but he had never heard of it and so couldn't comment.

At lease they have reset my target noise margin so I'm current syncing faster.

Will wait and see what tomorrow brings.

[Rik]

Curiouser and curiouser. 

[lozcart]

BTs third visit is now arranged for tomorrow.

[Simon]

Third time lucky?

[Rik]

 

[lozcart]

So far so good 

I had a different engineer call today but he did contact the previous one to get details on what he had tried. To start with he was at a bit of a loss as what else to try but then remembered that the green cabinet I'm connected to has two circuits coming into it from the exchange. He found out that my existing feed and the three connections they tried on the previous visit where all from the same circuit, he decided to try a connection from the alternative feed.

He went to the exchange and cabinet and swopped my line over, straight away there was a drop of 10db in my attenuation and a increase in around 5000Kbps in sync speed. He tested ringing the line and found no drops and very few CRC errors. We reconnected my router and tested 3 or 4 times again no drops so  it's sorted.

If it sorted then the upside of the problem is I've now got a much better line with a attenuation of 38 rather than 52, a sync of 10921 compared to 7000, noise margin of 6 compared to 15 and an uncancelled echo of -19.3 compared to a +4. 

I will monitor it over the next few weeks but first impressions are the problem is resolved.

[Rik]

That's great. If you get a good engineer, they can work wonders. 

[MisterW]

an uncancelled echo of -19.3 compared to a +4. 

That looks MUCH better...

[lozcart]

I'm not having much luck. My connection has been solid with no drops for the last six days that is until this morning when my connection dropped completely. I contacted support who tested the line which showed a line fault that BT were aware of. It is still down this evening despite saying it should be fixed by 6.00pm.

The weird thing is if I now ring my phone line I get a sync and PPP while I'm on the phone but can't get any data through put when I put the phone down the sync drops and the router indicates no broadband detected. This is the reverse of what was happening before. As it's still down I don't expect a fix now until Monday. 

[Steve]

At least that to me is fairly classical of a line fault.

[Rik]

And a classical, timely, BT response.

[lozcart]

It came back up again about half a hour ago but with a uncancelled echo of +25 have had one phone call and it dropped with massive errors and won't reconnect again.

I cant leave a message for support as the mail box is full.  

[Steve]

I wonder if it's related to torrents of rainfall we've had recently.

[lozcart]

Steve, the problem started yesterday morning before all the rain so I don't think it is connected.

I'm now back up again but dont want to ring the line as I'm sure it will drop again as the uncancelled echo is +19.

Can anyone explain to me what uncancelled echo is and what could possibly cause it on BT side of the connection. I know it would normally be my filters but we know this is not the case as it doesnt get any better with the phone disconnected completely or the router in the test socket. The reason I ask is when I mention it to BT and IDnet they are non the wiser. I'm sure if the uncancelled echo problem is resolved then so will be my problems. It would be good to give them a few pointers.

[Rik]

It came back up again about half a hour ago but with a uncancelled echo of +25 have had one phone call and it dropped with massive errors and won't reconnect again.

I cant leave a message for support as the mail box is full.  

TBH, they won't be able to do anything till Monday, but drop them an email.

[Rik]

Can anyone explain to me what uncancelled echo is and what could possibly cause it on BT side of the connection.

This would be reading suspicious if you had forgotten to put a filter on every phone, fax, tivo, cable box, alarm, etc. in the home. This reading would be high because an unfiltered device could cause more echo then the modem can compensate for and thus lead to lower sync rates. This does not always happen, but if you get a Suspicious reading for Uncancelled Echo, filters are the first thing to check!

[lozcart]

Thanks Rik, I've sent them two emails one first thing this morning and another about an hour ago.

[Rik]

Any response?

[lozcart]

No Rik nothing from support.

My connection is still holding but I still haven't tried phoning the line, my family won't let me as they don't want to be without the connection.

[Rik]

Understandable.

[lozcart]

I've just checked my phone for a dial tone and this immediately caused the broadband to drop and again it won't reconnect. This is getting ridiculous.

I've emailed IDnet requested it's escalated with BT as there is an obvious fault which they seem unable to fix.

[Rik]

They probably haven't worked out what it is or where.

[lozcart]

My connection has stayed down this time no sign of it getting a sync.

I will contact support tomorrow morning to kick BT 

[Rik]

Good luck.

[lozcart]

It comes to something when my Orange dongle is more reliable than my home broadband connection 

[lozcart]

Router has now synced, uncancelled echo +29 and lots of FECs indicated both upstream and downstream so not looking good. I dare not try the phone line!

[Rik]

 

[lozcart]

BT visit number four lined up for the morning. 

[Rik]

Let's hope this engineer has a bit of tenacity about him.

[lozcart]

I've got the same engineer as last time so I haven't had to explain the problem to him again. He is at a loss as to why the connection held for 5 days after his last visit only to go bad again. He has checked the connections at the exchange and cabinet which were fine but this has put back some stability to the line. He seems determined to find a fault and has called in reinforcement, they are currently checking and remaking all the joints from the house to the cabinet. 

[Rik]

You can't ask for much more.

[lozcart]

There was a fault at my exchange last Friday and they had to change a line card this however seems unconnected to my problem.

The engineer has also been on my computer googling uncanceled echo to try to find out what might cause it! He is impressed with all the line details the 2wire gives and seems to use this information above his test equipment.

[Rik]

He is a gem - feed him a bacon butty.

[Lance]

You can't ask for much more.

Although FTTP would be nice!

[Rik]

 

So would a direct link...

[lozcart]

They couldn't find anything wrong with the wiring and so wanted to arrange a cease and reprovide on the line. They tried to arrange this with BT wholesale but were unable so have asked me to contact IDnet to arrange.

[Rik]

I can understand what they're trying for. Good luck.

[lozcart]

An update on my on going problem. BT haven't carried out the cease and reprovide they have monitored my line since the last engineer visit and are happy that it now appears stable.

I'm fine with this as the line has held connection now for nearly four days, my target noise margin is slowly getting nearer my normal 6.0, my sync speed has increased and my profile has risen. I've agree with IDnet to monitor the line and report back if the problem reoccurs.

[Glenn]

 

[Rik]