Outage and Next Steps

Tacitus · Mar 11, 2011, 13:51:54

Regulars on Netters will recall the disasters of last October when BT merrily pulled the plug and cut iDNet off. Later when the problems were resolved, a post from Tim on the service announcements page, said,

Quote....we are in the process of opening discussions with additional suppliers and we will keep you posted on how these discussions progress.

Six months have now passed without any further information. Does anyone know if any progress has been made, or even if it is still under discussion?

I notice there are a couple of posts on TB singing the praises of LLU; in one case a claim of double or triple the iDNet speed via a competing CPW wholesale product.

Rik · Mar 11, 2011, 13:53:29

Nothing more has been said, Tac.

Tacitus · Mar 11, 2011, 14:17:28

Quote from: Rik on Mar 11, 2011, 13:53:29
Nothing more has been said, Tac.

Strange. In the light of the statement from Tim, I'd have thought there might have been something by now - after all he did say he'd let us know how the discussions progressed. Assuming something really is happening, six months should be enough to let us know the general direction things might be taking even if they can't tell us specifics at this stage.

Simon_idnet · Mar 11, 2011, 14:55:29

Unfortunately that avenue didn't lead to fruition.

cavillas · Mar 11, 2011, 15:04:22

HHMMM!!! SOmething to do with BT again I thik.

Technical Ben · Mar 11, 2011, 15:24:44

To be fair to IDNet, they have given us updates as and when they came in though. I thought we did get some sort of details in December? At least as to what happened. I understand BT are not commenting on processes or changes to them to prevent further mistakes.

It kind of reminds me of Nokia. A massive company, with the potential (and sometimes evident) ability to have a huge sucess. However, it becomes so large, things have trouble gelling together. Then it splits apart (AKA microsoft, Xbox fights PC gaming/OS, etc).

Tacitus · Mar 11, 2011, 15:54:40

Quote from: Simon_idnet on Mar 11, 2011, 14:55:29
Unfortunately that avenue didn't lead to fruition.

Sorry to hear that - the possibility of an alternative supplier might have lit a fire under BTs backside

God knows they need it.

Rik · Mar 11, 2011, 16:54:21

I was thinking more of a large lump of C4.

Glenn · Mar 11, 2011, 16:56:40

No, not daytime TV

Rik · Mar 11, 2011, 16:57:55

sparkler · Mar 11, 2011, 17:26:03

i support this idea

Bill · Mar 11, 2011, 19:57:04

Quote from: Simon_idnet on Mar 11, 2011, 14:55:29
Unfortunately that avenue didn't lead to fruition.

That's a pity

My options would be limited anyway on FTTC, but I'd happily have given Opal a try as a fibre LLU wholesaler.

Tacitus · Mar 12, 2011, 08:06:22

Quote from: Bill on Mar 11, 2011, 19:57:04
That's a pity
My options would be limited anyway on FTTC, but I'd happily have given Opal a try as a fibre LLU wholesaler.

TBH I don't think it would make much difference to me, although like you I would happily give CPW/Opal a try if iDNet offered their wholesale products. I suspect there would be a lot of people with the same view, although it would be difficult for iDNet to predict the likely take up with any certainty. Opal wholesale does seem to get good reports and, with iDNet's quality of service it would make an attractive offering for a lot of people.

FTTC and even ADSL2 remain pipe dreams round here.

Gary · Mar 16, 2011, 09:49:51

Quote from: Tacitus on Mar 12, 2011, 08:06:22
TBH I don't think it would make much difference to me, although like you I would happily give CPW/Opal a try if iDNet offered their wholesale products. I suspect there would be a lot of people with the same view, although it would be difficult for iDNet to predict the likely take up with any certainty. Opal wholesale does seem to get good reports and, with iDNet's quality of service it would make an attractive offering for a lot of people.

FTTC and even ADSL2 remain pipe dreams round here.

I have to agree, I would jump at the chance of using CPW Opal LLU via IDNet, Xilo don't offer a phone service and being happy with IDNet themselves but not BT it would be a great move forward for those with no ADSL2 or FTTC on the horizon.

Technical Ben · Mar 16, 2011, 09:54:44

Kinda off topic but...
The main problem with LLU and ASDL2+ now is there is no incentive for competition. Yep, that's right, it's still a monopoly, at least in small areas.
Is your exchange or town only big enough for one LLU box? Will it only supply enough customers for 1 supplier?
If BT got in first with ASDL2+ Why would o2 move in and not get any customers then?
If O2 has LLU in your exchange, why would TalkTalk bother installing one, when they can go to the next town and get customers who have no service provider yet.

So my exchange has TalkTalk. I'd take O2 before I go over to them. But will never get O2 or BT upgrading the exchange now TalkTalk have gobbled up all the possible customers.

David · Mar 16, 2011, 09:56:58

still no service here any news?sorry on phone atm

gingergalore · Mar 16, 2011, 10:00:00

Quote from: David on Mar 16, 2011, 09:56:58
still no service here any news?sorry on phone atm

I lost service around 8pm last night and it was still off at 11pm so went to bed and just hoped for a better day today - hooray hooray - back online now - what happened?

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 10:00:55

Quote from: David on Mar 16, 2011, 09:56:58
still no service here any news?sorry on phone atm

No reason for you not to have, David, call support.

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 10:01:54

Quote from: gingergalore on Mar 16, 2011, 10:00:00

I lost service around 8pm last night and it was still off at 11pm so went to bed and just hoped for a better day today - hooray hooray - back online now - what happened?

The main link fell over. What is then supposed to happen is that we all fail-over to the backup link. For some 10% of customers, that didn't happen.

David · Mar 16, 2011, 10:11:07

Thanks Rik I rebooted and it resolved itself sorry

Gary · Mar 16, 2011, 10:14:38

Quote from: Technical Ben on Mar 16, 2011, 09:54:44
Kinda off topic but...
The main problem with LLU and ASDL2+ now is there is no incentive for competition. Yep, that's right, it's still a monopoly, at least in small areas.
Is your exchange or town only big enough for one LLU box? Will it only supply enough customers for 1 supplier?
If BT got in first with ASDL2+ Why would o2 move in and not get any customers then?
If O2 has LLU in your exchange, why would TalkTalk bother installing one, when they can go to the next town and get customers who have no service provider yet.

So my exchange has TalkTalk. I'd take O2 before I go over to them. But will never get O2 or BT upgrading the exchange now TalkTalk have gobbled up all the possible customers.

I am in the same boat we have talktalk LLU so Xilo reselling would be great but since its full LLU and has no phone package its not worth it, if IDNet resold CPW/Opal LLU like Xilo but you still had a phone package I think many would be interested.

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 10:18:09

Quote from: David on Mar 16, 2011, 10:11:07
Thanks Rik I rebooted and it resolved itself sorry

Stale session from the sound of it, David.

Technical Ben · Mar 16, 2011, 10:20:42

Phew. I thought it was happening again there Rik... oh wait, "10% failed".

De Ja Vue?

David · Mar 16, 2011, 10:22:33

My own fault should have thought to reboot still all ok now

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 10:25:33

Quote from: Technical Ben on Mar 16, 2011, 10:20:42
Phew. I thought it was happening again there Rik... oh wait, "10% failed".
De Ja Vue?

Very much.

Adam · Mar 16, 2011, 12:12:12

Quote from: Gary on Mar 16, 2011, 10:14:38
I am in the same boat we have talktalk LLU so Xilo reselling would be great but since its full LLU and has no phone package its not worth it, if IDNet resold CPW/Opal LLU like Xilo but you still had a phone package I think many would be interested.

Xilo is in the process of getting setup with Opal/TTB to use their kit for partial LLU, so you can keep your voice with IDNet (or BT, etc) and still use the TalkTalk LLU network for broadband. Some other providers already offer this, Vivaciti being one of them, however they use O-Bit as their wholesaler and the O-Bit network leaves much to be desired in comparison to the Murphx network Xilo uses.

Adam · Mar 16, 2011, 12:24:55

I'm quite surprised IDNet has not managed to find an alternative supplier. There are other wholesale options out there, for example BE Wholesale and TalkTalk Business, that are being used by other ISPs similar to IDNet. AAISP being the prime example I'm thinking of with their BE Wholesale products, and I'm sure TalkTalk Business are open to direct access rather than resale as they already do it with O-Bit and Murphx.

Admittedly there are many other factors and unknowns which may have pushed IDNet away from the above options but it is a shame no alternative solution could be found. As it stands the only downside to IDNet is the use of the BTwholesale products and network.

Technical Ben · Mar 16, 2011, 12:34:20

Well. Most of us agree it's not the fact they use BT Wholesale, but that there is not a more expansive network. If BT wholesale rolled out ASDL2+ across the board, half of the problem would be gone. The other half is the reliability of what is there. I agree it's tempting to move to a more reliable network then. But only if one can be found.

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 12:37:39

BT need putting out of their misery, Ben, and a competent company should be brought in to run their network. Last night's problem was exactly the same issue as before, and BT assured IDNet then that they had found and fixed the cause.

Glenn · Mar 16, 2011, 12:52:23

How many of the alternative suppliers have a presence in each exchange?

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 12:53:40

That's the big problem. Only BT can offer some kind of service at every exchange.

Ray · Mar 16, 2011, 12:56:35

Indeed, Rik, I only have BT in my exchange and with only about 1600 subscribers, I can't see anyone else being interested in having a presence there.

Rik · Mar 16, 2011, 13:00:25

That's the heart of the problem, Ray. For smaller ISPs, the cost of offering choice where it's available must be a very delicate financial balancing act.

Adam · Mar 17, 2011, 02:17:56

That's actually one area Opal/TTB seem to have managed well, beside having the largest LLU presence they also claim to offer IPStream and WBC for areas not covered by their network.

Gary · Mar 17, 2011, 08:15:24

Quote from: Adam on Mar 16, 2011, 12:12:12
Xilo is in the process of getting setup with Opal/TTB to use their kit for partial LLU, so you can keep your voice with IDNet (or BT, etc) and still use the TalkTalk LLU network for broadband. Some other providers already offer this, Vivaciti being one of them, however they use O-Bit as their wholesaler and the O-Bit network leaves much to be desired in comparison to the Murphx network Xilo uses.

Looked on thier forums and no mention, of this yet, well I could not find it, it would be great but I would prefer IDNet to do the same simply as it would be easier, but if Xilo do get that together I will be off simply because I will get better speeds, and upload speed is now important because I'm using a few cloud storage services. Xilo said I should manage 14Mbps, now which would be fantastic, pay the same get monthly contract (have to pay to get out though) I like IDNet but I am never going to get adsl2 here or FTTC. Like ray we have about 1600 users on the exchange but CPW stepped in and put in LLU so using a reseller is my only hope of a more reliable and faster service.

Jovin · Mar 17, 2011, 15:16:09

Oh please not Opal LLU! The problems I had when Nildram became part of Tiscali LLU and then later became part of Opal.....and getting away from them was a nightmare and took 2 weeks before Idnet could sort it and I got Internet back.

Adam · Mar 17, 2011, 22:05:13

Quote from: Jovin on Mar 17, 2011, 15:16:09
Oh please not Opal LLU! The problems I had when Nildram became part of Tiscali LLU and then later became part of Opal.....and getting away from them was a nightmare and took 2 weeks before Idnet could sort it and I got Internet back.

Using Opal/TTB direct is entirely different than using their LLU network via someone like Murphx. Suppliers interconnect with Opal in the same way they do with BTwholesale and the quality can vary just like an ISP using the BTwholesale network. Comparing Opal/TTB direct to Xilo is the equivalent of comparing BT Retail/Business with IDNet.

However I do agree that it can be difficult to leave full LLU due to the costs and downtime usually involved. I have experienced it first hand and would not recommend full LLU. Partial LLU through Opal is much more interesting though as you can simply migrate away using a MAC and you get the benefits of their LLU network (no DLM or profiling for one).

Tacitus · Mar 18, 2011, 07:57:17

Quote from: Adam on Mar 17, 2011, 22:05:13
Partial LLU through Opal is much more interesting though as you can simply migrate away using a MAC and you get the benefits of their LLU network (no DLM or profiling for one).

I think that's why a lot of people were hoping that iDNet could do something similar to Xilo. A connection to an LLU network with no BT profiling and iDNet's quality of service, would be an attractive proposition if it could be done at a competitive price.

sparkler · Mar 18, 2011, 13:09:22

ive only got BT here and i just left stalkstalk and i hope if idnet do use opal that they make sure they don't spy on us

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/26/talktalk_stalkstalk/

Tacitus · Mar 18, 2011, 19:55:58

Quote from: sparkler on Mar 18, 2011, 13:09:22
ive only got BT here and i just left stalkstalk and i hope if idnet do use opal that they make sure they don't spy on us
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/07/26/talktalk_stalkstalk/

Might be worth asking Xilo whether CPW still use this on their wholesale offering. If they do I could see them being rather embarrassed.