Frequent disconnects

[Slyder]

Hi there, i'm having problems with my IDnet connection.

I've had it for about 2 months now, and everything has been going okay up til now. I've been experiencing several disconnections which involves my Linksys WAG354G Router's ADSL and INTERNET light going off, then back on a few seconds later.

Is there any reason for this? Maybe a few of my settings need to be changed...

[Rik]

Sounds like noise on your line, which is causing the router to re-sync. Does the Linksys have a log which shows such events?

It might be worth a look at your internal wiring and, if possible, trying the connection at the test socket if you have one. See here for full details.

[Slyder]

you mean this?

System Log
   
2007-05-16T04:27:23-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3397 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T04:33:14-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3398 To: 63.251.217.10:8585
2007-05-16T04:43:32-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3399 To: 212.69.36.101:80
2007-05-16T04:43:51-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3400 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T04:44:47-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3401 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T04:46:00-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3402 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T04:47:01-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3403 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T04:47:23-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3404 To: 63.251.217.10:8585
2007-05-16T04:50:44-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3405 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T04:50:52-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3406 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T04:54:29-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3407 To: 63.251.217.10:8585
2007-05-16T04:56:39-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3408 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T04:56:57-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3409 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T04:58:37-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3410 To: 63.251.217.4:8484
2007-05-16T04:58:53-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3411 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T04:59:50-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3412 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T05:00:49-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3413 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T05:01:07-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3414 To: 63.251.217.10:8585
2007-05-16T05:03:32-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3415 To: 212.69.36.101:80
2007-05-16T05:05:43-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3416 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T05:06:39-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3417 To: 63.251.217.12:8585
2007-05-16T05:08:03-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3418 To: 63.251.217.11:8585
2007-05-16T05:08:33-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3419 To: 63.251.217.10:8585
2007-05-16T05:09:38-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3420 To: 212.69.36.101:80
2007-05-16T05:09:38-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3421 To: 212.69.36.101:80
2007-05-16T05:09:40-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3422 To: 212.69.36.101:80
2007-05-16T05:10:47-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3529 To: 216.93.248.82:80
2007-05-16T05:10:48-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3530 To: 216.93.248.82:80
2007-05-16T05:11:21-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3539 To: 216.93.248.82:80
2007-05-16T05:11:22-08:00 TCP: From: 192.168.1.66:3540 To: 216.93.248.82:80
          

[Rik]

That looks more like an intruder log.

This is how a Netgear records a loss of sync:

Thu, 2007-05-03 17:18:50 - LCP down.
Thu, 2007-05-03 17:18:50 - Initialize LCP.
Thu, 2007-05-03 17:18:50 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Thu, 2007-05-03 17:19:30 - CHAP authentication success
Thu, 2007-05-03 21:40:03 - LCP down.
Thu, 2007-05-03 21:40:06 - Initialize LCP.
Thu, 2007-05-03 21:40:06 - LCP is allowed to come up.
Thu, 2007-05-03 21:40:16 - Loss of synchronization :6
Thu, 2007-05-03 21:40:23 - CHAP authentication success

[Slyder]

hmm.
Then i'm not too sure where i can get to something like that..Is there anyone here with more knowledge on Linksys routers? @__@

[Rik]

I'm not sure - I'm trying desperately to think of who might have mentioned using one. Possibly Avenger?

If no-one can help, pop across to the DSL Hardware section of ThinkBroadband - I guarantee you'll get an answer there.

Meantime, if you give support a call, they may be able to help you with information from their logs... More importantly, you need to see if you can isolate the problem by eliminating your internal phone wiring.

[Slyder]

Okay, shall do what you suggested. I've just plugged my cables into the test socket on my phone socket, and now hoping to see any changes.

[Lance]

I have a linksys router, and it would seem that the logging on yours is the same - c**p.

The only way to log a disconnection is using routerstats.

I would agree with Rik, it seems to be a noise issue, so if you have gone through the things in Rik's sticky (linked to in his post above) I would recommend running routerstats to confirm it is a noise issue. rom there we can then give you the options of what to do.

Lance

[Lance]

Now you are plugged into the test socket, you should check your SNR margin. If this is much higher then you have a problem with your internal wiring. Alternatively, you may find you have a much higher sync (with noise margin at 6) which will also point to internal faults.

[Rik]

Sorry, Lance. I knew someone had a Linksys - just thought it was Avenger for some reason.

[Lance]

I seem to remember Avenger mentioning either Billion or Zyxel???

[Slyder]

These results right?

   DSL Status:       Up           
               DSL Modulation Mode:      GDMT         
               DSL Path Mode:      INTERLEAVED         
               Downstream Rate:      5856 Kbps         
               Upstream Rate:      448 Kbps         
               Downstream Margin:      7 db         
               Upstream Margin:      18 db         
               Downstream Line Attenuation:      26         
               Upstream Line Attenuation:      16         
               Downstream Transmit Power:      0         
               Upstream Transmit Power:      0         
                            

PVC Connection
                                      
               Encapsulation:      RFC 2364 PPPoA         
               Multiplexing:      VC         
               QoS:      UBR         
               PCR Rate:      0         
               SCR Rate:      0         
               Autodetect:      Disable         
               VPI:      0          
               VCI:     38          
               Enable:      Yes         
               PVC Status:      Applied

This is after putting it in the test socket.

Another thing, would it do any harm to leave the phone line inside the test socket instead of the one on the faceplate?

[Rik]

I seem to remember Avenger mentioning either Billion or Zyxel???

I'm just old and confused.

[Rik]

Another thing, would it do any harm to leave the phone line inside the test socket instead of the one on the faceplate?

Those are the results. Do you have a 'before'?

You're fine using the test socket. Consider it a temporary filtered faceplate...

[Slyder]

Nope, i don't have results from before, but if anything, i'll get one soon. I have to go and do something x_x
Thanks for the replies so far!

[Slyder]

Ah..just had another disconnection x_x.
Would it be a case of overheating? I have had the router on for several days...

[Rik]

It shouldn't be, routers are designed to be run 24/7 - mine's never over-heated in months of running. If it is over-heating, it's possibly faulty. More likely, that was an electrical spike. Is anything set to switch on around 4:40, eg heating?

[Slyder]

I'm not sure, if it was a electrical problem, wouldn't the whole router shut off and not just the ADSL and INTERNET lights?

[Rik]

No, if it's electrical noise being picked up, that would just cause the connection to drop, ie you would lose sync.

[Slyder]

Okay, i've checked anything that might be set to go off at regular intervals, and i can't find anything.

Another point that might be useful to hear. My dad has on several occasions been pulling out the phone line directly, for what reasons; i'm not sure. Could this have somehow 'damaged' the router or someting else?

[Rik]

It shouldn't have done any damage, but it might just have caused some noise on the line I suppose.

[ReDGryphoN]

Hi,

Your downstream margin looks a little low, might be causing a resync from the exchange, not sure if the Linksys router you have is compatible with the DMT tool, I know that the Linksys WAG54GS is ok with it.

http://dmt.mhilfe.de/ for the DMT tool. you would need version 8.05

This tool allows you to play around a little with your target noise margin with the potential to increase you speed and / or make your connection more stable.

ReD

MAABOF

[Slyder]

Hi, thanks for that link.
I just can't seem to find the port number, nothing else works.

[ReDGryphoN]

Hi,

Port is always 23 it used the Telnet port.

Username and Password are admin and password all lower case.

ReD

JSAWBSAW

[Slyder]

I've tried port 23 and it gives an error message, here's a picture link :
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/TouchFace/untitled1-1.jpg

[Lance]

I've got the one LAN port version of your linksys router (badged and sold in Tesco as the HG200) which is identical except the number of ports. Therefore, I can tell you that the router does not support a telnet connection to it and therefore the DMT tool won't work.

Sorry I didn't pick up on this earlier!!

[ReDGryphoN]

 Hi,

ONLY the Linksys WAG54GS is compatible and no others. Lance is correct if you do not support telenet then you can not use this tool.

This is a useful forum for DMT and software in general

http://www.dslzoneuk.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=23

ReD

JSAWBSAW

[Slyder]

Okay, looks like that won't work then @__@ You mentioned that my downstream margin is pretty low, would calling CS and asking to raise it help in anyway?

[Rik]

You posted a d/s margin of 7db. That suggests that you might already have the target margin set to 9db. You could certainly ask support to increase it further, but you will lose some speed. Personally, I prefer stability to speed, so had mine raised to 9db, since when I have had few problems.

[Slyder]

Just had another disconnect at 3:45, looking for any patterns, my stats dropped to
   
Downstream Rate:       1152 Kbps           
Upstream Rate:      448 Kbps         
Downstream Margin:      7 db         
Upstream Margin:      12 db

I'll definetly ring customer support, and ask them to raise the db. As you say, stability seems more important than speed to me!

[ReDGryphoN]

Hi,

Std setting for downstream noise margin (Called target SNR) for interelave is 6dB IOW if you get a figure at or lower than this you would/could experience a disconnect as BT see it as a fault on your line, they will then alter your speed downwards to see if the situation improves and by doing that this actually raises your downstream noise margin, in theory meaning you will have less chance of dropping to the target SNR level again.

As you are at 7dB I feel this could be happening to you, on your router you should be able to see the number of disconnects ?

As stated before, check your router stats again plugged into your normal port not the master socket and post them here if you can.

A very useful site for explaining (better than I!!) all about this stuff is found at:-

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm

Well worth a read.

For your information I am on a long line and needed to squeeze the max out of my set up so have fitted an ADSL master socket filter, place the router next to the master socket and run Cat5e cabling to my computer (Old house so wireless through granite is a no no), also removed the ring wire from all extensions and master socket.

ReD

JSAWBSAW

[Rik]

Downstream Rate:       1152 Kbps           
Upstream Rate:      448 Kbps         
Downstream Margin:      7 db         
Upstream Margin:      12 db

There's something going badly wrong, your previous figures were:

DSL Status:       Up           
               DSL Modulation Mode:      GDMT         
               DSL Path Mode:      INTERLEAVED         
               Downstream Rate:      5856 Kbps         
               Upstream Rate:      448 Kbps         
               Downstream Margin:      7 db         
               Upstream Margin:      18 db         
               Downstream Line Attenuation:      26         
               Upstream Line Attenuation:      16         
               Downstream Transmit Power:      0         
               Upstream Transmit Power:      0         

Your new sync speed is 1Mbps. If you've checked your own wiring, it's time to get support involved to test the line.

[Lance]

Std setting for downstream noise margin (Called target SNR) for interelave is 6dB IOW if you get a figure at or lower than this you would/could experience a disconnect as BT see it as a fault on your line,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you here, Red. You would not normally expect to get a disconnect until your noise margin is less than or equal to 0, and indeed some lines/routers can hold as low as -4 (Rik's is a good example of this I believe).

With the linksys router, the logging is hopeless. The only way to monitor and log disconnects is to use routerstats.

[ReDGryphoN]

I agree,

You have probably resyched way too many times and now have had your profile cut to a poor one. However what is really concerning is your own downstream margin has not gone up at all, this should have shot up with such a low downstream rate.

What is your SSnoise marging doing between disconnects stable and then drop very low or a gradual drop to a low figure ?

There is a free ADSL stats software package (I will find the link when back home) that will record and graph what is happening to your noise margin. Will post later

ReD

MAABOF

[Slyder]

There's something going badly wrong, your previous figures were:

DSL Status:       Up           
               DSL Modulation Mode:      GDMT         
               DSL Path Mode:      INTERLEAVED         
               Downstream Rate:      5856 Kbps         
               Upstream Rate:      448 Kbps         
               Downstream Margin:      7 db         
               Upstream Margin:      18 db         
               Downstream Line Attenuation:      26         
               Upstream Line Attenuation:      16         
               Downstream Transmit Power:      0         
               Upstream Transmit Power:      0         

Your new sync speed is 1Mbps. If you've checked your own wiring, it's time to get support involved to test the line.

Just phoned customer support. They said that on their logs, my internet has been up and running for a good while, and it shows no disconnections. o_o;

Could it be something wrong with the area i'm in? My phone just dropped dead and there's no dialtone on it at all..

The wiring is something that's still bugging me, in your thread on noise margin, it shows pictures of wires connected to the faceplate if you open it up. I opened up mine and there's no wires attached the the faceplace, would this be an issue?

[ReDGryphoN]

Lance,

I did say would/could, my router can hold on to 1db too but my old Netgear fell over at 5dB probably due to my long line.

I will shut up !

Slyder,

No wires to the faceplate means normally no extensions..................

ReD

MAABOF

[Lance]

There is a free ADSL stats software package (I will find the link when back home) that will record and graph what is happening to your noise margin. Will post later

ReD

MAABOF

Sounds like routerstats.

Lance

[Lance]

I will shut up !

lol

[Slyder]

I agree,

You have probably resyched way too many times and now have had your profile cut to a poor one. However what is really concerning is your own downstream margin has not gone up at all, this should have shot up with such a low downstream rate.

What is your SSnoise marging doing between disconnects stable and then drop very low or a gradual drop to a low figure ?

There is a free ADSL stats software package (I will find the link when back home) that will record and graph what is happening to your noise margin. Will post later

ReD

MAABOF

I get a straight drop down to the 1000's after a disconnection x_x
I've tried routerstats (If that's what it is, thanks Lance), but it doesn't appear to work, or everything's fine. If i can remember, the graph stays constant on the 7db line, occasionaly dropping to around 6db for a short while then back up.

[DorsetBoy]

Just re-read all of this.............. with interleaved path the SNR should be higher,you keep losing synch and the profile seems to drop yet IDNET see no disconnects.


Borrow/beg/steal another router and try from scratch,sounds to me like one very duff router.

[Slyder]

New stats after yet another loss of connection

   DSL Status:       Up           
               DSL Modulation Mode:      GDMT         
               DSL Path Mode:      INTERLEAVED         
               Downstream Rate:      5824 Kbps         
               Upstream Rate:      448 Kbps         
               Downstream Margin:      6 db         
               Upstream Margin:      18 db         
               Downstream Line Attenuation:      26         
               Upstream Line Attenuation:      16         
               Downstream Transmit Power:      0         
               Upstream Transmit Power:      0

Lemme go find someone to steal a router from

[ReDGryphoN]

routerstats does not work for all router, great for Netgears.

Also try ADSL monitor but you may have problems due to lack of telnet.

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/adslm/adslm.php

I would get a Speedtouch 585 v6 for £24 delivered from Dsldepot, (not new but refurbished)
You could get the full benefits of DMT then too

If my Belkin 7633 was not so reliable I would get one too, I have helped friends get on broadband and the Speedtouch has not let me down yet

ReD

MAABOF

[Slyder]

Ah, looks like routerstats works now, here's the current graph (Still running)

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/TouchFace/untitled1-2.jpg

[Rik]

The 0 spike may not indicate anything bad, sometimes Routerstats can't access the router and records a 0. However, you sync speed changing as it has without any shift in noise margin says there is something badly wrong with your connection.

As ReD says, if there are no wires attached to the faceplate, it would normally indicate that there are no extensions. OTOH, if you do have extensions, it would suggest that the socket is not your master.

I'm puzzled that you appear to be dropping the connection, yet support can't see it. That could certainly indicate that the issue is your router - it would be worth trying another router before you do much more, as that is cheaper than paying BT if it's a wiring issue.

For the moment, I can't think of any other advice, I think you need to eliminate one of the variables (ie the router) before we can make practical suggestions. If you have a USB modem, you could try that rather than buy another router.

[Slyder]

As you said, i think it might be a problem with the router itself.
I've put a more updated routerstats up :

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w32/TouchFace/untitled2.jpg

The 0 spike happens every time i disconnect.
Also, the db switches now between 6-7db, if that changes anything.

First thing's first, i'll get round to using my usb modem, then consider a new router if that stops the disconnections.

[Rik]

Hi Slyder

What do you mean by "every time I disconnect". Disconnect what from where?

Certainly, your figures seem to be wildly variable. Let's eliminate the router. If you still get problems with a frog, then it's time to tear your wiring apart!

Do you have any extensions? Have you tried a different filter?

[Slyder]

Hi Rik!

Well when i mean disconnect, i mean losing my connection very randomly. The adsl and internet light on the routers go out, (adsl first, then the internet light, JUST like when my dad pulls the internet plug directly out of the extension x_x)

Let me try and map out everything in the house @__@

--------------------------------------------------------
Key:
=== Being the ethernet cables
-_-_- Being the adsl line (Wow, looks pretty weird o-o;)
()()()() Being the phone line (Running out of ideas >_<)
""""""" Is the extensions wiring

Pc 1     Router           Pc 2         Pc 3
====[Connected]================
             -_-
             -_-
             -_-
             -_-      (Goes up stairs)
             -_-
             -_-()()()()()()()()()()()()()()()-*____*[Banana phone]
             [Filter]       
[Connected to extension box]
              ""
              ""
              ""
              ""
              ""
          [         ] (Phone socket)
          [  [  ]   ]

--------------------------------------------------------

Sorry if that wasn't very clear, but the reason behind all the complex extensions is simply because, the pc's are situated pretty far away from the actual socket itself..
       

And yes, i have tried a different filter, but i'll swap some more around later on

[Slyder]

Now that i've got my usb modem up, is there something that i can run to monitor my internet?
Something like routerstats, but for modems perhaps? o_o;
I'm leaving my pc on overnight, and hoping to see if i get any disconnections like before..

[Rik]

OK. Houston, I think we have a problem...

As I read your diagram, you have a single master socket, to which is connected a filter. To that, you have a phone connected and the router, the latter via a long ADSL cable? Is that correct? What does the extension box do, just provide a junction? Have you checked for split pairs and bell wires?

The rule of thumb is short ADSL, long ethernet. How long is the cable between the filter and the router? Possibly, you would do better to fit a filtered faceplate and then run the ADSL cable using Cat5, which is more noise resilient.

Thanks for clarifying the disconnect issue, I thought you meant you were unplugging something.

I don't know of anything which will monitor a USB modem, but check whether Dr Speedtouch has an option - it's been a long time since I've used that.

[Slyder]

Okay so i ran my game overnight, and i experienced no disconnects (I normally would)
Just a faulty router then? I'll try a few more tests when i get back from school..Citizenship exam, urgh. x_x
And i'll try to answer your questions then, almost late already

[Rik]

Well, the finger is definitely beginning to point!

[ReDGryphoN]

Yes I think it has !

All you have to do now is find a router that suits you and as I had discovered everyone has an opinion !!

ReD

MAABOF

[Rik]

All you have to do now is find a router that suits you and as I had discovered everyone has an opinion !!

Life was easier before Max, it was pretty simple to recommend routers. I tend to feel they should now be available on trial, so we could see how they run with a particular line.

[ReDGryphoN]

I totally agree,

There appears to be no "best option" especially if like me you are on a long line with high attentuation.

I was lucky to be able to try 2 and mistakenly buy another type (only to sell it on again) before I got to the one I have. To many chipsets, software GUI's, firmwares, etc etc

Best bet is to see if you can borrow one from someone you know

ReD

JSAWBSAW

[Rik]

There appears to be no "best option" especially if like me you are on a long line with high attentuation.

I have 56db attenuation. Before Max, I was recommended to use a Draytel 2600+, which was totally reliable. However, once I Max'd, it just didn't hold the line. I ended up with the humble Netgear DG834, which holds down to about -3db noise margin.

I was lucky to be able to try 2 and mistakenly buy another type (only to sell it on again) before I got to the one I have. To many chipsets, software GUI's, firmwares, etc etc

Too many indeed. Perhaps we ought to think about forming a pool of members who have a range of routers and would be prepared to visit others, or lend the router to others, to check on a given line? There are obviously practical problems in administering such a scheme, but it could be of real benefit.

[ReDGryphoN]

Lol Rik,

My attenuation is 62dB and the BT checker says I could get 512K !!, I however get 2Meg through mainly my own efforts and now (through IDNET) a stable connection too, I get this with a Noise Margin of 9db so I could tweak some more if necessary but would struggle to get to the next BRAS profile for 2.5Meg.

I had a Netgear like yours but the PN model with the flashing lights etc, but that router for some reason would gradually bleed my noise margin down to 0 or -3 or whatever and would eventually fall over. I had some great graphs from routerstats with this happening ! No rhyme or reason for it. The guy I sold this too actually had an improvement over his line and synch rate etc so he was well delighted !

D Link did not work very well at all nor a Linksys I tried, eventually a Belkin 7633 (the tweakable version with DMT, there are many 7633's that are not) was my saviour, happy to keep me connected even with a poor line.

ReD

JSAWBSAW

[Rik]

My attenuation is 62dB and the BT checker says I could get 512K !!, I however get 2Meg through mainly my own efforts and now (through IDNET) a stable connection too, I get this with a Noise Margin of 9db so I could tweak some more if necessary but would struggle to get to the next BRAS profile for 2.5Meg.

That's not bad for 62db att. I also have a 9db margin to achieve stability (at my request) and usually sync at around 3-3.3kbps, just a bit below the rate for a 3000 profile, so I'm usually on a 2500. With a following wind though... It would be nice if BT would use a less coarse stepping sequence for profiles.

I had a Netgear like yours but the PN model with the flashing lights etc, but that router for some reason would gradually bleed my noise margin down to 0 or -3 or whatever and would eventually fall over. I had some great graphs from routerstats with this happening ! No rhyme or reason for it. The guy I sold this too actually had an improvement over his line and synch rate etc so he was well delighted !

Which just goes to prove that you can't make simple recommendations these days! Netgears do have a reputation of misreporting noise margin  over a period, ie it will tend to drop away by 2-3db.

D Link did not work very well at all nor a Linksys I tried, eventually a Belkin 7633 (the tweakable version with DMT, there are many 7633's that are not) was my saviour, happy to keep me connected even with a poor line.

And other people curse anything Belkin!

It seems that, since Max, the only rule about routers is that there are no rules. Why don't we have a sigh icon when I need one!

[Slyder]

Ah, glad that the problem's been found 
Now..the challenge of finding a router suitable *sigh* Sounds way too confusing for me, and recommendations wouldn't help would they? >__<

[Rik]

Call support, explain your problem and see if they could lend you a router - unless you have friends around who could help out...