Extremely slow broadband connection

[Ardua]

I have considerable sympathy with the situation that the OP finds herself in. I have a slightly issue but it has resulted in me tearing the house apart; buying and fitting new faceplates and filters; digging out an old MW radio and trying 3 routers to prevent the random disconnects and relatively slow speeds that I am experiencing. My router's inbuilt spectrum analyser shows little RFI in the ADSL2+ spectrum yet I slowly get a build up of unrecoverable errors which trips the router every 1 to 3 days. My downstream SNR has stubbornly sat at 15 for 3 weeks yet 2 days ago it dropped to 11.

Support's conclusions have varied from a noisy external line - to a faulty router - to router incompatibility with the MSAN (Infineon 7.27.14 H0 0).

They have now offered to send out an engineer - at potential cost to me - to prove what exactly? My connection rate sits firmly within BT Wholesale's very wide speed parameters so is this not just a licence for BT to make money? The alternative is that I move to a LLU provider who doesn't use BT Wholesale's network. If I was in business, I would have to question why BT-dependent ISPs are not getting together to apply more pressure on BT Wholesale.

I am also in contact with my router manufacturer's support team who have suggested that I install their line/router support tool. I will probably run this when I am next away from home for a few days with the router plugged in to the test socket (again - the last time using the test socket made no difference). I will then decide whether it is time to switch ISPs. There has to be a better way of getting ADSL- related problems resolved.

[gyruss]

THIS.   I have nothing but admiration for folk on here who have got these lovely high speeds, i enjoyed a 6mb connection all winter and now that the warmer weather is here.. my connection has dropped to a sub 2mb link and averages around 1.5mb    I have done much the same by fitting my house with filtered faceplates, re-wired all links to twisted pair, replaced routers and done the MW radio test a number of times too.. i simply cannot find any evidence inside my house of anything that should be causing my issues.

Its enough to drive a guy insane trying to work it out, my previous house i got just under 8mb connection, and that house is no more than half a street away.  That old house had a copper telephone extension cable too, and certainly not the twisted pair solution i've got here now.     but this house i'm in now?  newer house entirely, and its like its cursed for broadband.. i have honestly had nothing but trouble.. i went with idnet as soon as i moved in, and being honest i have not felt happy about my connection here at all.

So what is a guy to do?    I am extremely I.T. proficient, and feel i've exhausted everything i can to try to get some kind of 'normal' connection, i keep hearing that all is ok from idnet and bt.. and yet never do i ever feel like things are fixed.   I was more than happy to settle for a 5-6mb connection, but this erratic up and down connection i'm enduring is enough to make me consider moving house.. a huge extreme..  it really IS that bad.  I would however prefer that my ISP and BT work together that bit more.. even if it meant a little more expense from ME..  just to get me fixed once and for all, but i suspect that things will go just as they have for the last 4 years.. one party pushing the problem at the other and the other proclaiming its not their problem either.

WELL who's problem is it? when all checks out my side, what exactly should a customer have to do just to get the product they pay monthly for?

I have considerable sympathy with the situation that the OP finds herself in. I have a slightly issue but it has resulted in me tearing the house apart; buying and fitting new faceplates and filters; digging out an old MW radio and trying 3 routers to prevent the random disconnects and relatively slow speeds that I am experiencing. My router's inbuilt spectrum analyser shows little RFI in the ADSL2+ spectrum yet I slowly get a build up of unrecoverable errors which trips the router every 1 to 3 days. My downstream SNR has stubbornly sat at 15 for 3 weeks yet 2 days ago it dropped to 11.

Support's conclusions have varied from a noisy external line - to a faulty router - to router incompatibility with the MSAN (Infineon 7.27.14 H0 0).

They have now offered to send out an engineer - at potential cost to me - to prove what exactly? My connection rate sits firmly within BT Wholesale's very wide speed parameters so is this not just a licence for BT to make money? The alternative is that I move to a LLU provider who doesn't use BT Wholesale's network. If I was in business, I would have to question why BT-dependent ISPs are not getting together to apply more pressure on BT Wholesale.

I am also in contact with my router manufacturer's support team who have suggested that I install their line/router support tool. I will probably run this when I am next away from home for a few days with the router plugged in to the test socket (again - the last time using the test socket made no difference). I will then decide whether it is time to switch ISPs. There has to be a better way of getting ADSL- related problems resolved.

[Rik]

Has your attenuation or noise margin changed, Jase?

[gyruss]

(sorry i know that sounded like rant), its just all v. frustrating rly.  sadly.

[Rik]

But what are your router stats like?

[Ardua]

I think that Rik was correct in an earlier post when he said that most of us now feel that broadband is such an essential part of our lives that it has to be as assured as water, gas, electricity, Sky and the good old telephone. This is the challenge that ISPs now have to address. Supply is more than making the right connections and hoping for the best. Surely, a full line test should be an integral part of any switchover. If my line, through distance etc, is only capable of supporting a speed of 'X' then this is what I should be basing my decision to switch ISPs on. Using just about every speed estimator that I can find, I have an estimate of speeds ranging from 13 to 20Mbps on ADSL2+: yet I get about 30 to 50% of this. At this point, the ISP will cry foul as it cannot be held responsible for internal wiring; filters and router selection. The answer to the last point is that the ISP should always supply a router. The internal wiring issue is more difficult but if the 'test socket' is the ISPs' preferred connection point then why hasn't BT come up with a better NTE5 box design which does not require users to take off a faceplate to get at it? I do not take the front off a power socket to get at a purer supply of electricity. Equally, where users cannot sensibly place the router close to the 'test/master socket' then why aren't ISPs offering a BT-approved extension kit - for self fit or engineer fit at cost? Even Sky Digital will send out an engineer to fix a problem- and it rarely charges for doing so -  with a monthly premium which is similar to that of broadband. It doesn't provide me with a digital service with half a picture and put it down to poor internal wiring, interference etc. They would never get away with it. Why should the broadband supply sector be any different?

Time to put hobby horse back in the stable. 

[Simon]

I agree with most of what you say, but it could be equally argued that an electricity supplier can't be held responsible for appliances within the home being fit for purpose, or in working order.

[Rik]

 

One problem is that there are so many more possible points of failure with ADSL than any other utility, including the user's equipment or internal wiring, the 'last mile', the exchange equipment, backhaul, radius servers etc - all before the ISP becomes directly involved. On top of that, we're trying to get something out of Victorian technology that it was never designed to provide. The use of the test socket is not really about purity but demarcation, that's where BT will test, so ISPs will ask you to test there too - trying to ensure you don't get a bill for an engineer visit. BT, of course, have no such interest, which is why they don't make access easier and, indeed, are moving to external demarcation points on new builds. ISPs will supply a router if people want one, most people prefer to buy their own as it tends to be cheaper. However, it can still go wrong, as can a filter, both are being built down to a price rather than to a high spec, it's why most routers are still 10/100 when most modern machines have gigabit NICs. Equally, ISPs could supply extension kits, but most people are going to buy one at B&Q etc.

I've been through my fair share of poor Sky boxes and the need to escalate to CEO level to fully agree with you on Sky, but there is a significant difference between the two media. Sky is broadcast, one transponder feeds everyone, while the hardware at the other end will also have been supplied by Sky. The variables are few, and the potential points of failure are limited.

The bottom line, really, is that BT is not competent to run the network, at least imo, and should be subject to much tighter regulation. Sadly, Ofcom seem to feel their job is to protect BT from scrutiny.

[Gary]

I think that Rik was correct in an earlier post when he said that most of us now feel that broadband is such an essential part of our lives that it has to be as assured as water, gas, electricity, Sky and the good old telephone. This is the challenge that ISPs now have to address. Supply is more than making the right connections and hoping for the best. Surely, a full line test should be an integral part of any switchover. If my line, through distance etc, is only capable of supporting a speed of 'X' then this is what I should be basing my decision to switch ISPs on. Using just about every speed estimator that I can find, I have an estimate of speeds ranging from 13 to 20Mbps on ADSL2+: yet I get about 30 to 50% of this. At this point, the ISP will cry foul as it cannot be held responsible for internal wiring; filters and router selection. The answer to the last point is that the ISP should always supply a router. The internal wiring issue is more difficult but if the 'test socket' is the ISPs' preferred connection point then why hasn't BT come up with a better NTE5 box design which does not require users to take off a faceplate to get at it? I do not take the front off a power socket to get at a purer supply of electricity. Equally, where users cannot sensibly place the router close to the 'test/master socket' then why aren't ISPs offering a BT-approved extension kit - for self fit or engineer fit at cost? Even Sky Digital will send out an engineer to fix a problem- and it rarely charges for doing so -  with a monthly premium which is similar to that of broadband. It doesn't provide me with a digital service with half a picture and put it down to poor internal wiring, interference etc. They would never get away with it. Why should the broadband supply sector be any different?

Time to put hobby horse back in the stable.  

You cannot compare Sky digital with an ISP, sky provide the dish, the wiring and the box, so any failure is their responsibility. Debating Why BT does not provide an easier socket does not solve an issue, send them an email, you will probably find its so kids playing on the floor don't accidentally break it, or people wil little technical expertise find they have bashed it with a hoover, who knows. As far as supplying a router.. a lot of people have specific needs and prefer their own equipment, and I doubt an ISP can guarantee that their router will be a perfect match for every exchange either.

If an ISP gave you a BT approved extension kit and it didn't work as well as it should people would blame the ISP for their bad wiring skills possibly, opening up a whole can of worms, so I can see why they don't do that. You want it elsewhere in the house, sort it out yourself, that's fair as I see it.

No ISP can guarantee what condition your line is in, the distance tells you the optimum, not the reality and unless every ISP requested BT to do a survey of every line in the country they will never know till you are connected. Providing Broadband is not like providing Electricity or Sky, or your Gas supply, its very different and you cannot link the two with analogy's to each other in my opinion.

[Ardua]

A few more comments and I will then get my coat. My point is that the line up to my NTE5 box is installed and maintained by BT (analogous with Sky). If the ISP checked the line for faults prior to each installation (and any that were detected were fixed), supplied and installed the router and tested the installation then I would have a complete system - again similar to Sky. At the moment, it is a complete mess. I listen for noise on my phone line: if I hear anything, I report it to my phone provider who alerts BT Openreach (but do not mention broadband). If my ISP suggests an engineer visit, then they call in BT Openreach. Both visits are at potential cost to me. Where do the ISPs sit in this relationship? Is my contract with them nothing more than up to 'x' amount of bandwith in a month and that is it or should there not be a guarantee of at least a minimum speed?  My point is that the current type of ISP business model is unsustainable in the longer term. If the ISPs do not realise this then it is probably time for OFCOM and The Competition Commission to get involved. My guess though is that some other major player will see the potential for a fully integrated and supported broadband service - probably cable - which over time will diminish the power of BT Wholesale. 

[Rik]

Isn't it called Virgin Media?

[Ardua]

Woops - sorry, I forgot my umbrella and there is rain in the air. Rik - you may well be right but I wouldn't rule out Sky. With Anytime +, it would be in Sky's business interest to build a robust (and fast) broadband network to back up their satellite service. I cannot see them relying on BT to provide this for them. Personally, I shy away from an all-in-one (BB,TV, phone) service but .....

[Glenn]

Looks like sky are building/extending their network http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/sky_bt_ducts_poles_trial/

[Ardua]

Just seen a similar comment re Sky on Thinkbroadband's news page. Where does this leave the niche ISPs? Surely, it has to be the provision of a 'Rolls-Royce' inclusive service where one person deals with all issues as and when they arise within the monthly fee. I am no great fan of Sky's installers (they moan constantly about the price they get for the job) but they generally arrive on the day that they say they will and do what is required. I have had my dish moved three times by a special heights team to get around a neighbour's conifer. The last time by one man who had a fear of heights!!

[Tacitus]

Looks like sky are building/extending their network http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/sky_bt_ducts_poles_trial/

Believe that when it happens 

[gyruss]

Rik, i'm at work at the mo, will check the attenuation later, among other stats.

Its nice to have a lifeline for info from idnetters, good forum this, and loads of info in various posts too.

I noticed my exchange is down for june for FTTC of which i'm hoping will at least completely address the cabinet to the exchange side of things.. the current junction box is just over the road from where our row of houses is, so i would hope the new fiber junction boxes will sit next to that.     It seems to be underground cable from the junction box to the houses where i live, so no overhead cables or drop cables.  I hope to god its not the underground wiring, as i can see a whole book of excuses from BT as to how it 'couldn't possibly be that' before i get one engineer who takes the time to just try.   last time i had a bt engineer out, he said if i got trouble again to get my ISP to order an SFI visit from BT. 

So its kinda here i am again, and my broadband is.. awful.

[Technical Ben]

... The answer to the last point is that the ISP should always supply a router....

I went to IDNet purely because I can choose my own router. Don't want BT phorm or any snooping. Don't want people "helpfully changing" my settings I spent ages getting how I want them. Don't want cheap made in a basement tat.

To add to what most people are commenting on... how exactly do you suppose we get BT to change? It has a monopoly. It has backing from major industry and political parties. It's got everyone else's hands tied. They are pushing against the small ISPs even more so. By removing the tools available, and the explanations given to customers! IDNet no longer have as much detail as before. They literally get told by BT that the "last mile" is either "OK (at least 512k)" or "Not OK (no service)". So if it is the exchange/wires, there is nothing anyone can do anymore.
I'd love to see all the copper/ally' replaced. I'd love to see ASDL2+/21cn rolled out universally.  

[pctech]

I think Wholesale/Openreach needs to be publicly owned again so that it can be held accountable or an even better model would be that used by LINX and LoNAP, all members have equal ownership (including BT Retail) so that the infrastructure is run for the mutual.

An interesting fact is that LINX was originally set up by BTInternet and Pipex to allow them to exchange customer traffic without having to pay for expensive American transit.

[cavillas]

I'd love to see BT/Openreach broken up and built into a proper supplier of communication infrastructure, preferably owned by all isp's and other communication companies but with no overall ownership by any one company.  I'd also like to see the Government MAKE them build and maintain a brand new system available cheaply for everyone.

I'd also like to win the lottery, become young again, be able to run around and be attractive to the opposite sex; alas somethings remain as a dream.  

Ps. Pctech just siad that as well.

[pctech]

The BT bit is not likely to happen Alf while BT have an MP on their board they can use as a well paid human shield and a member of NuLab no less.

[karvala]

Just had a read through this rather entertaining thread and a few comments come to mind.

First is the question of IDNet support.  I suspect most of the non-business customer base joined a number of years ago, when some large and incredibly bad ISPs were haemorrhaging customers who were desperately trying to find an ISP that wasn't completely terrible, even if it cost more.  In those days, IDNet unambiguously had the highest reputation for customer support of any ISP.  Those customers came to expect that level of service, and unfortunately it hasn't proved possible to sustain it.  I don't know whether it's a staffing issue, an attitude issue, a financial issue or something else entirely, but for whatever reason IDNet customer service has lost some of its lustre.  In the good ol' days, if you had a problem you put in a call to support, and often even out of hours you'd a soothing reply from Miriam(!), or an informative reply from Simon or Tim, and there was a clear sense that these were good guys who would go that extra mile to help, and I personally experienced them doing so.  Now, there's more of an impression that they're just vaguely irritated at having been disturbed by a customer problem, and an increased reliance on the default checklist-type response.

I'm quite sure Simon and Tim have found BT Wholesale/Openreach absolutely dreadful to rely on and incredibly frustrating to work with, and this could well be why there's some sense of almost resignation in the customer service now.  It's a situation where you'd be inclined to think "what's the point of my offering a good service if I no longer have the tools or the muscle to actually get the problem resolved for real?".  I think that's a mistake, incidentally; the point of customer service is to make the customer feel better, and in the case of a problem, to acknowledge the problem, describe what will be done to resolve it and what the limitations are on that in terms of the Openreach timetable.  Ignoring a customer is always a PR disaster.  Nevertheless, I do feel a degree of sympathy for IDNet and their difficult position, because almost all of the problems over the past year(s) have been nothing to do with their network or anything over which they have control, but rather unannounced maintainance work, BT screwups or fires in Telehouse (which seems to be the most fire-prone building in Britain).

I absolute agree with the above posters that Wholesale/Openreach should be changed from its current private monopoly.  It also seems clear to me that an ISP should be able to deal with all aspects of a fault as far as possible (along the lines of LLU offerings at the moment), and insofar as a central administration is needed for exchanges (which is understandable), it should be a government agency that works 24/7 on behalf of all telecommunications companies equally, regardless of size or support contract.

Meanwhile, Simon and Tim should cheer up a bit  , and have at least one support staff member available 24/7 on the end of a phone line, even if there's nothing that can be done to resolve Wholesale/Openreach faults at that time (and bear in mind, many other faults and support issues CAN be resolved at those times).  It wouldn't cost that much to have a stand-by service like that, and would make a big difference to customers with problems.  Oh, and update the service status page when problems are flagged.  An inaccurate/out-of-date service status is worse than none at all.  

[.Griff.]

Now, there's more of an impression that they're just vaguely irritated at having been disturbed by a customer problem, and an increased reliance on the default checklist-type response.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

On once occasion I called and spoke to a female who was extremely helpful, listened to my questions and took her time to answer them accurately and carefully. On the other occasions I've spoken to a male who really couldn't have cared less and simply wanted to get off the phone as soon as possible.

I'm not sure who these individuals are but if Idnet had more like the female and less like the male then that would makes things better overnight.

[Rik]

Oh, and update the service status page when problems are flagged.  An inaccurate/out-of-date service status is worse than none at all. 

I agree with your latter point completely - though it doesn't help those whose connections are down.

This particular case, though, is a bit more complex. Sync speed and profile were fine, there was a working connection, albeit slow. The out of hours support message makes it clear that only failed connections will be dealt with until the next business day, in this case, Tuesday. OOH support received six calls during the weekend, four of which were from Tina, there was no network fault either with BT or IDNet.

There was nothing that could be done to help her, ie the line tested OK, she doesn't pay for enhanced care, and we all signed up knowing that IDNet don't provide 24/7 support officially, though, like you, I've had calls, emails or texts at all kind of hours in the past, including the recent past.

It is increasingly hard for IDNet to work as it used to. BT recently restricted the tools available to them for trouble shooting, and the 21CN tools weren't working at all today. Personally, I find it hard to dismiss the thought that BT is abusing its position to squeeze smaller ISPs out of the market.

[pctech]

It is increasingly hard for IDNet to work as it used to. BT recently restricted the tools available to them for trouble shooting, and the 21CN tools weren't working at all today. Personally, I find it hard to dismiss the thought that BT is abusing its position to squeeze smaller ISPs out of the market.

I think you are absolutely correct Rik, restrict what they can do and make them look bad, customers will then defect to us as the reliable alternaitve and the owners will get so frustrated they will shut up shop.

I think its more important than ever that we support the last remaining independent ISPs otherwise we'll be left in BT Retail/TalkTalk/BE traffic managed hell.

[.Griff.]

I think its more important than ever that we support the last remaining independent ISPs otherwise we'll be left in ..... BE traffic managed hell.

Be don't use any form of traffic management whatsoever.