Extremely slow broadband connection

[pctech]

I stand corrected, for the moment at least.

O2 do though on their branded service which uses the same infrastructure.

[Ardua]

Well put Karvala:  an accurate, brief, clear and concise exposition. Perhaps it is time for a bit of this:  http://www.38degrees.org.uk/

Public pressure worked for forests and it is having an effect on NHS reforms. The PM talks about The Big Society: I do not think that this is caveated with (as BT sees it).

[Technical Ben]

I stand corrected, for the moment at least.

O2 do though on their branded service which uses the same infrastructure.

You cannot call Home Connect "managed". 

[pctech]

Ok point taken about BE.


I''ve started a petition on 38 Degrees to campaign for the nationalisation of the telecoms infrastructure.

If you'd like to sign it click here

[Ardua]

In an attempt to get back onto the original subject, one of my concerns re the problems that I have been experiencing with ADSL2+ over the past month or so is one of Support bridging the gap between those who know a lot about ADSL (in its various guises) and those of us who know very little and would like to keep it that way. I have no wish to Ping, Tracert, lower my SNR or change my MTU or DNS. With the precursors to ADSL2+, I just plugged my router in and the line stayed connected (for months on end) always at the maximum synchronisation rate. Happy days.

ADSL2+ is totally different as I know to my time and cost. Connection rates have been up and down and re-synchronizations frequent (at least by ADSL Max standards). When the connection breaks, the connection rate and the IP falls immediately thanks to the great God BT (and his friends MSAN and DSLAM). This continues until router decides to fight back - 'enough, enough' is the call and following yet another router-initiated disconnection (possibly because I threatened a move to Sky Unlimited)  the connection rate soars by 3000 and 2 days later the God BT catches up and raises the IP by 2000. Yet despite this increase, God's Speedtester (when he is at home) shows an actual download of 11454 on a connection rate of 11924 and IP of 10000. As Support has access to my BT Speedtests, line stats, disconnection rates etc they could do themselves a lot of favours, when questioned, by explaining to less knowledgeable customers whether this pattern of events is normal for an ADSL2+ line? If not, then what can the ISP and customer do together to resolve the issue? This is what I am looking for from a niche ISP offering a premium cost service.

[Rik]

BT's speed tester is an appalling piece of coding, under-resourced and frequently inaccurate. Sadly, BT's rules are that it's the only one that counts.

As to not wanting to know much about ADSL, sadly it's more like a car than a light switch, ie you have to know a bit about the basics of how it works and what to check if there's a fault, or incur charges for someone else to make the checks for you. Sadly, as yet, the AA don't do ADSL recovery - though it could be a nice earner for them.

[T_M_D]

If you wont look for interference or try a different router just to see, then you are not going to get any further, it could be interference and you don't know your router is really running fine unless you are an engineer and have tested it, by doing what IDNet asks you will confirm or deny if these are the problems. Its up to you but I would take the test kit when you can and try it out, only then can IDNet say for sure what the issue is, also you should not really print out what idnet send to you, I'm guessing that's part of "Please note that the content of any personal message you receive is confidential and may not be revealed to a third-party, or posted in the forums" although I could be wrong and an admin will have say over that.

What have you got to lose? If you do find its your router of interference then you are sorted, its not like its hard work, excuse me for being blunt but these people are trying to help, and if you wont try the tests out you cant really expect anymore help from the forum, or IDNet.

Gary, there is nothing in the reply from IDNet I have posted that I would think would cause a problem to them. I have had a few replies, but I have not posted those because they were more personal to both me and IDNet. The one I posted merely stated a series of actions and so I think you are being over sensitive about that.

I will keep repeating it here that if I have broadband access all week and then it goes down for a few days and BT speed tests show there is a problem at that time then there is a problem at that time.

If that problem then goes away and then everything is working OK again I cannot see for the life of me how that can be attributed to my router. On the question of interference, I do not understand this whole business of interference - interference from where? I do not have devices that operate and cause interference so what is the point of waking around my house with a radio looking for it? I would like to point out that if my problem did not exhibit the pattern it did and the problem was ongoing then I would of course without a shadow of a doubt, be prepared to get another router as I too would then be suspicious that it was the router. As for what you say about the forum and IDNet withdrawing their support because I was not prepared to try a new router for that issue that was during a set period of time or because I will not walk around with a radio, then I all I can say to that is I, and I think, many other users on this forum would be very disappointed and dismayed,

I am aware of the help I have had from the forum and I do appreciate it, however, I do not think that you should be saying that you would not blame the forum or IDNet if they chose to abandon me when I need help if there are particular tests I will not do when to me, those tests for the particular problem do not seem logical.

No. I am not an engineer, but if my broadband works consistently every day for weeks on end then goes down for three days and then works consistently again, I do not need to be an engineer to see that the router works fine.

I would hope that this forum continues to support me, incidentally, I have 3 people who use IDNet through my recommendation and whenever anyone says they have a problem with their current broadband service, I always give them IDNet's web address and praise them and the forum highly.

What kind of praise and recommendation could I continue to give to people do you think if I told people, 'oh yes, IDNet are great, only if you do have a problem and you do not do all the tests that they want you to do regardless of whether or not you think they are relevant given the issue, IDNet and the IDNet forum wiil refuse to help you further'

[T_M_D]

The tests IDNet have asked you to do are standard procedures designed to eliminate any faults with your own equipment.  If it comes down to a BT visit, you would be liable for charges of around £160 if a fault was found with your equipment, or indeed, if no fault is found, and that's what IDNet are trying to avoid for you.  If you won't do the tests, then it will be difficult for them, or us, to help you any further.

I will do the tests if the problem exhibits itself in a more consistent pattern.

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if someone could please clarify exactly what interference it would be that a radio would pick up and how this could affect my broadband? Thanks.

[Rik]

What kind of praise and recommendation could I continue to give to people do you think if I told people, 'oh yes, IDNet are great, only if you do have a problem and you do not do all the tests that they want you to do regardless of whether or not you think they are relevant given the issue, IDNet and the IDNet forum wiil refuse to help you further'

It's not strictly true to say IDNet won't help you, Tina, they have offered to get an engineer out to you, but warned you how much it will cost. They can't do more testing than they have, if you won't test at your end, then there is nothing that anyone can do to help you, either at IDNet or in the forum. It may not be your equipment, it may not be local interference, but if you won't help to eliminate those possibilities, then what else can be done?

Intermittent faults are a nightmare, and we always need to look for any possible cause, however remote the possibility.

I will do the tests if the problem exhibits itself in a more consistent pattern.

In the meantime, I would appreciate it if someone could please clarify exactly what interference it would be that a radio would pick up and how this could affect my broadband? Thanks.

ADSL works in the MW radio band. The signal is modulated on top of the voice signal and sent to the router (which isn't filtered) while the voice-level signal is filtered of the ADSL signal and passed to the phone. MW is subject to interference, it's generally at its worst after dark, but the effects are around at any time. In the past we have found such obscure items as the motor on a neighbour's treadmill causing issues, but central heating, washing machines, fluorescent lights, Xmas lights and DECT base stations have all been know to create a problem. We should ignore power supplies in computers, monitors or even routers themselves either.

[T_M_D]

Emphasis on what Simon said, if you're overconfident that it is not a problem on your part then go ahead and tell IDNet you want a BT engineer to visit. Keep in mind that they will charge in most cases if a fault was traced in your home.

As I said before, I will be happy to perform tests if the problem exhibits itself consistently and not just over a weekend only to return to full use when the weekend is over.

What would be the point in getting in an engineer when currently no faults are happening? My broadband is working fine, it has been all week, should it go down again this weekend then I can only think that it definitely points to a congestion issue or BT undertaking maintenance work that is affecting my exchange.

If it is the case that a bit of BT equipment had gone down last weekend or that some maintenance work had been done then what good would an engineer's visit had done, what would it prove?

I would like to point out that my exchange is very small and therefore, it is most likely that I am the sole IDNetter using that exchange, which means that IDNet would not be getting loads of support calls or people on this forum with the same issue.

Should this issue arise again over the weekend then I will be in the same place as I was last weekend (I fervently hope it does not) where I am totally at the mercy of whatever is causing it because there is no technical support for my problem from IDNet or from BT. And then if the problem has 'gone away' come the end of the holiday weekend, then we are back in the same place not being able to find a fault because the fault - or whateve cause it - no longer exists.

[Gary]

As I said before, I will be happy to perform tests if the problem exhibits itself consistently and not just over a weekend only to return to full use when the weekend is over.

What would be the point in getting in an engineer when currently no faults are happening? My broadband is working fine, it has been all week, should it go down again this weekend then I can only think that it definitely points to a congestion issue or BT undertaking maintenance work that is affecting my exchange.

If it is the case that a bit of BT equipment had gone down last weekend or that some maintenance work had been done then what good would an engineer's visit had done, what would it prove?

I would like to point out that my exchange is very small and therefore, it is most likely that I am the sole IDNetter using that exchange, which means that IDNet would not be getting loads of support calls or people on this forum with the same issue.

Should this issue arise again over the weekend then I will be in the same place as I was last weekend (I fervently hope it does not) where I am totally at the mercy of whatever is causing it because there is no technical support for my problem from IDNet or from BT. And then if the problem has 'gone away' come the end of the holiday weekend, then we are back in the same place not being able to find a fault because the fault - or whateve cause it - no longer exists.

Just because you are the only (possibly) idnetter on your exchange doe not mean you would be the only one seeing problems, if there was an issue at IDNet many users would see the same, like the Cogent issue when site s would not load properly, also tbh what harm doe sit do to be preemptive and check that all is OK? If there is an issue that is intermittent as Rik says they are a nightmare but checking with a radio and changing router is not exactly a long job, then if it does happen again you have done all you can, this way you have to start all over again checking everything changing routers looking for interference, contacting IDNet, if you had do it now its done, that simple which would make the next step a lot easier and less prolonged. Each to their own though.

I guess IDNet may know more about what tests are relevant than some users, you were not sure how interference can effect your line, which shows they knew something you didn't. So maybe those tests were relevant after all. Our old line was awful at night due to a streetlight outside our old house that was right by the side of our telephone  line from the House to the poll, it always caused the noise on the line to increase and then the line would drop.

[T_M_D]

If this is a local problem, Tina, it will move with you if you change to another BT-based ISP. I'd advise you, therefore, to avoid getting tied in to a long contract. A change may cure the problem, it may not. OTOH, using a comprehensive self-test routine will establish if there is an issue. If you don't want to follow the advice - which is the same that I would have given you - then neither IDNet nor we can help you further.

With all due respect, I will keep saying it, I am prepared to do that if the problem exhibits itself outside of certain hours. If it happens again this weekend, then I will also be prepared to do it, even if only to stop people saying they will not help me further if I don't!

[T_M_D]

I didn't believe it was my router either when I had a problem. Until I did the radio test and found the power supply was generating RFI noise. The power bricks are very cheaply made in most cases.

But surely Rik, if this were the case in my situation then the problem would exhibit itself consistently...

[T_M_D]

I would do the tests and save the money, as Rik said. Home routers can do odd things and are cheaply made, their power supplies can cause all sorts of issues and probably produce weird harmonics, in this day and age and with such costs involved, problem solving yourself is a much better idea.

Same reply I gave rik about power supply applies here. I would expect a power supply problem to exhibit at other than certain hours.

[T_M_D]

I have considerable sympathy with the situation that the OP finds herself in. I have a slightly issue but it has resulted in me tearing the house apart; buying and fitting new faceplates and filters; digging out an old MW radio and trying 3 routers to prevent the random disconnects and relatively slow speeds that I am experiencing. My router's inbuilt spectrum analyser shows little RFI in the ADSL2+ spectrum yet I slowly get a build up of unrecoverable errors which trips the router every 1 to 3 days. My downstream SNR has stubbornly sat at 15 for 3 weeks yet 2 days ago it dropped to 11.

Support's conclusions have varied from a noisy external line - to a faulty router - to router incompatibility with the MSAN (Infineon 7.27.14 H0 0).

They have now offered to send out an engineer - at potential cost to me - to prove what exactly? My connection rate sits firmly within BT Wholesale's very wide speed parameters so is this not just a licence for BT to make money? The alternative is that I move to a LLU provider who doesn't use BT Wholesale's network. If I was in business, I would have to question why BT-dependent ISPs are not getting together to apply more pressure on BT Wholesale.

I am also in contact with my router manufacturer's support team who have suggested that I install their line/router support tool. I will probably run this when I am next away from home for a few days with the router plugged in to the test socket (again - the last time using the test socket made no difference). I will then decide whether it is time to switch ISPs. There has to be a better way of getting ADSL- related problems resolved.

I have big sympathy for you. You seem to have gone through an awful lot of effort and cost to try and resolve your issues.

[Gary]

Same reply I gave rik about power supply applies here. I would expect a power supply problem to exhibit at other than certain hours.

Depends what else you have on near to it at certain hours, or if its in a extension or surge suppressor what else is plugged into it that may go on at different hours, it could be that you turn a light on and your cabling is picking up interference, what kind of cabling are you using from the BT socket to your router, is it shielded, is it near other electrical cables which can cause interference.  With respect you spent last bank holiday asking for help and being unhappy with IDNet, now they give you an option to cross an issue off the list, whether its showing up now or not makes no difference, it means you would have peace of mind knowing its not at your end. Now you seem to be not wanting that help, that's like having a strange noise in your car, and then it goes away, so you think all is fine, well sometimes the calm is before the storm so getting things checked out before more problems may occur is always sensible, after all you will only be upset if you line goes down again, but this time you will need to do those tests before you can go forward and that would just slow down getting things fixed in the long term. Anyway have  a good bankholiday and hope your line behaves itself.

[T_M_D]

Woops - sorry, I forgot my umbrella and there is rain in the air. Rik - you may well be right but I wouldn't rule out Sky. With Anytime +, it would be in Sky's business interest to build a robust (and fast) broadband network to back up their satellite service. I cannot see them relying on BT to provide this for them. Personally, I shy away from an all-in-one (BB,TV, phone) service but .....

Personally I would like to see the BT behemoth die in the gutter! All the years they have been raking it in and look what they have done for us all over the years - not. They cannot even give us mere mortals access to any kind of technical support in this country any longer, other than, it seems, an engineering visit that could cost you half a mortgage payment. Instead, we have to endure the agony of going through an Indian call centre, which is one reason why I left them.

[T_M_D]

Looks like sky are building/extending their network http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/sky_bt_ducts_poles_trial/

I for one, would be off like a rocket if they installed here (not likely to though  ), my son has them. There is 24/7 support, he says when calling them - not that he hardly ever has a problem, there is a measure of turning off router, etc, but then an engineer is called if they cannot resolve it on the phone, and there is no charge to the customer for that. If they suspect a router issue, then a new one is sent out straight away. Their call centre is I think in Nottigham.

The cheapest package they do for 10 meg is £21 for broadband (I get 5-6 meg, and yes, before anyone points it out, I know I am non-LLU). If you have a phone line with them on its own, the phone line costs £13 a month, but if you have them together, the broadband comes down to £13.50 per month, making a total of £26.50 per month for both broadband and telephone line.

I pay IDNet over £18 per month broadband and around £11 a month line rental, a combined cost of £29 per month, or thereabouts, with no OOH support, no router supplied initially and no replacement router supplied when things go wrong, other than a 'free' test kit that has to be returned at my incovenience and expense after 7 days.

My son gets a consistent 19-20mbps speed and pays £18.50 per month for his broadband and £13 per month for his phone line.

Now, that is what I call value for money and pretty painless minor hassle if a problem arises.

Like I said, I would be off like a shot to Virgin Media if they installed in my area.

I actually remember when cable was first installed, because my area I lived in at the time was one of the first to get it, I belive the company at that time was Diamond Cable.

Why I wonder did BT not install its own cable years ago - Diamond Cable installed to my mind, what must have been around 18 years ago....? What the heck has BT done since then? From what I have seen on posts it seems that much of their new offerings are just as prone to failure as their old stuff.

[T_M_D]

I think you are absolutely correct Rik, restrict what they can do and make them look bad, customers will then defect to us as the reliable alternaitve and the owners will get so frustrated they will shut up shop.

I think its more important than ever that we support the last remaining independent ISPs otherwise we'll be left in BT Retail/TalkTalk/BE traffic managed hell.

I would never defect to BT - they are appalling.

[Ardua]

Reading this and other forums and BB-related websites, one of the main issues that users cannot get their minds around is the randomness of ADSL faults. If my phone rings and the internet disconnects then I have a clear cause and effect. Similarly, if my internet dies at 6.30am and again at 4.30pm then my brain would logically suggest that I check my CH pump for RFI. What Tina and I have been experiencing is random issues where there is no logical explanation for what is happening. AAISP, et al, advertise the fact that they monitor their customers' lines with sophisticated tools that PING, if that is the right term, every minute or so. Many IDNet users use the TBB Broadband Checker and RouterStats. My question to those who might know is 'what tools does IDNet have at its disposal to monitor the performance of its customers' lines'?  Surely, rather than saying 'it was a router-initiated disconnect at your end' they should be able to add what I think is missing at the moment; ie, there was a build up in noise leading to a drop in SNR probably because of ........'

Having flown many types of aircraft over the last 40 years with simple but extremely effective flight data collection and playback, I cannot believe that there isn't sophisticated monitoring equipment out there to watch over what is happening on two pieces of twisted wire. What has AAISP got that IDNet hasn't?

[T_M_D]

It's not strictly true to say IDNet won't help you, Tina, they have offered to get an engineer out to you, but warned you how much it will cost.

No, maybe not Rik, but it is what you and others on here seem to be suggesting will/should happen.

I will do everything IDnet expects me to do next week, should this prolem arise again this weekend regardless of whether or not I agree with it, I cannot be any more accommodating than that.

[T_M_D]

ADSL works in the MW radio band. The signal is modulated on top of the voice signal and sent to the router (which isn't filtered) while the voice-level signal is filtered of the ADSL signal and passed to the phone. MW is subject to interference, it's generally at its worst after dark, but the effects are around at any time. In the past we have found such obscure items as the motor on a neighbour's treadmill causing issues, but central heating, washing machines, fluorescent lights, Xmas lights and DECT base stations have all been know to create a problem. We should ignore power supplies in computers, monitors or even routers themselves either.

Thanks for the explanation Rik. Given all the items in your list are all normal household gizmos, I am amazed that any of us ever gets a proper working connection at any time of the day or night.

[T_M_D]

Just because you are the only (possibly) idnetter on your exchange doe not mean you would be the only one seeing problems, drop.

I do understand that Gary, I did not make myself clear, what I really meant was that if the issue was with my exchange, then it woud not be transparent to IDNet as I am probably the only IDNetter on it. that fact alone could almost nail it down to an exchange issue.

[Simon]

Just a suggestion, Tina, but if 24/7 support is a main criteria for you, then perhaps it might be worth looking at somewhere like PlusNet, who seem to offer a comparable phone / broadband package?  I think they are owned by BT, though.  

http://www.plus.net/packages/

I do understand that Gary, I did not make myself clear, what I really meant was that if the issue was with my exchange, then it woud not be transparent to IDNet as I am probably the only IDNetter on it. that fact alone could almost nail it down to an exchange issue.

Do you know if any of your neighbours has issues last weekend?

[Rik]

But surely Rik, if this were the case in my situation then the problem would exhibit itself consistently...

The problem was intermittent, possibly temperature related, possibly a 'final straw'.