Probably the worst ISP - in the world!

[annc]

I have just spoken to IDNET support and I think have spoken to the rudest most unhelpful tech support I have ever encountered.  My daughter lives on her own, does not know anyone in the area and yet was told she had to borrow a different computer to try speedtests.  She has tried to run a BT test but it is so slow that it would not work, she has therefore run speednet tests which IDNET won't consider.   (They are well under 1mbs)  I was told today by rude nasty tech support that the profile for her line is 7mbs therefore she must have 7mbs.   When I said that the line profile has no bearing on actual speed he got nasty and just told me that they could call out BT but I would end up paying £195 because there is nothing wrong.

Support are never open when she is at home so she can't get any support - which given the 'support' I just encountered is probably just as well.  She is considering going over to Sky, which given the service she has received from IDNET for the past 18 months (yes terrible speed for the first 6months she was with them which they refused to acknowledge) can't be any worse. 

I am still feeling shell shocked from my encounter with IDNET which I would now never ever consider.

[pctech]

Hi

I think she may have been told to try a different router but yes I see your point.

I'm sure that one of the mods will pick this up soon and try and liaise with IDNet for you.

[jameshurrell]

IDNet won't accept any speedtests other than the BT one (http://speedtester.bt.com/)... this is because BT themselves won't accept any other speedtests as evidence of connection problems.

The BT speedtest is uniformly acknowledged to be one of the worst designed and performing websites around... There are other recent threads about it on this forum (http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,25965.0.html).

Unfortunately until you can get a BT speed test across to IDNet (which will include the line profile (which does affect speed) and the download speed achieved) all they can see (I guess) is that the line profile is showing a 7MB profile - which indicates that in theory the potential download speed should be just that.

Looking back at your posts, your daughter has had a quite a list of troubles - to me it sounds like some local issue...

[Simon_idnet]

Hi Annc

We've run all the tests that we can from our end and everything checks out fine with no obvious faults identified. If you are unable to carry-out any further diagnostics (such as trying a different pc) then our only next course of action would be to send an engineer. If that engineer then finds that there is a fault with either your daughters PC or router or cabling etc then BT will levy a call-out charge of around £200 (depending on actions carried-out by the engineer). This is why we urge you to carry out the diagnostics that we recommend - to try to eliminate the possiility of you being charged for an engineer visit.

[Steve]

Any ideas what fault the engineer found last time?

[annc]

Any ideas what fault the engineer found last time?

Hi Steve - sorry about initial post, but I was a bit put out to say the least by the initial response I got from tech support. 

Previously the problem wasn't at the exchange it was at a BT hub where the wiring was found to be faulty.  It was put right and everything was fine until last week.  Her internet is now unusable.  Unfortunately, she is not very tech savvy, doesn't know anyone locally that can help so the only way would be to pay an IT company to come out and help her with settings in order to run a BT speedtest, which seems a little extreme. 

She is talking of migrating to Sky, but I have warned her that if it is a BT line problem she will be no better off.

Again, apology for initial rant but I was feeling pretty furious at the time, especially since I am the one paying for her phone line and broadband 

[Glenn]

The attachment shows how to run the speedtest, but it can take a few attempts to get it to run.

[.Griff.]

In addition to Glenn's attachment here's a video showing your daughter how to use the Bt Speedtester - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yq7W6BIuiig

[Simon]

Ann, is there any reason why your daughter can't join the forum herself, so that we can try to advise her directly?  We can walk even the most tech-phobic through most things.  It does sound as though IDNet have done everything they can from their end.

[annc]

The attachment shows how to run the speedtest, but it can take a few attempts to get it to run.

Hi Glenn

She knows how to run a BT speedtest and tried several times but it just wouldn't run.  On the third attempt it told her to change her user name and password and she was a bit freaked out and didn't know what to do.  Not sure I would know what to do either :S

[.Griff.]

Hi Glenn

She knows how to run a BT speedtest and tried several times but it just wouldn't run.  On the third attempt it told her to change her user name and password and she was a bit freaked out and didn't know what to do.  Not sure I would know what to do either :S

The only reason it would prompt her to change her username and password is if the test had run all the way through and the throughput was found to be below the threshold set by BT.

I can only echo the other comments. She should create her own account on Idnetters. It's a lot easier dealing directly with someone rather than passing a series of messages through an intermediary.

[D-Dan]

It may also be worthwhile letting us know what area she is in. Perhaps one of the good folk here is close enough to offer some assistance (such as another computer to try the BT Speed Test, a different router, etc).

Steve

[annc]

Right, got daughter to do a ping test, seems she has a packet loss of -150% , pings of 53ms and jitter of 29ms.  The result said grade F Very poor, Realtime Internet application performance will suffer greatly on such a connection. I suggested she join this forum but she is out all night and asked me to post the results to see what others make of this.

Thanks Steve - she is in the Horsham area.

Thanks

[zappaDPJ]

I assume that these tests were conducted via the speedtest.net website? Could you post a link to the actual test? There will be a link that copies it directly to your clipboard which will allow you to paste it here.

The reason I ask is that it's giving a very strange result. 100% packet loss would mean no throughput at all and therefore no test result so 150% seems to be a bit of an anomaly.

[annc]

Hi Zappa yes it was through pingtest.net - I sent her the link.  She just sent me a screen shot before she went out but unfortunately the image won't copy.  I forgot to say that it also said the line quality was B* so doesn't seem to be a line problem?

I could forward the e-mail if that would help

[zappaDPJ]

Hard to say where the problem is. If the tests IDNet have done suggest the line is sound but there's still low throughput and packet loss, it's likely that the packet loss is affecting the throughput. That could be caused by something your side of the socket e.g. a WiFi connection can do this if not set up correctly. I had that very issue myself recently, full throughput with a cable (32 Mb/s) and less than 1 Mb/s because of a WiFi problem. I could also be a line problem though.

What I'd suggest is typing the following command into a DOS window and posting back the results.

ping www.idnet.net -n 50

[.Griff.]

Right, got daughter to do a ping test, seems she has a packet loss of -150%

The result said grade F Very poor

the line quality was B*

Hi Ann,

This is another example of why it's so important that your daughter posts on here herself rather than passing information through a third party. Packet loss of "-150%" makes no sense at all and all we can assume is something has been confused along the way. That added to the contradictory "Pingtest.net" line quality results only further increase the importance that she signs up and is able to post direct results herself.

[Tacitus]

ping www.ident.net -n 50

Hi Zap:

To avoid confusion did you mean:   ping www.idnet.net -n 50  ?  Note idNET

[Ardua]

Hi

I think she may have been told to try a different router but yes I see your point.

I'm sure that one of the mods will pick this up soon and try and liaise with IDNet for you.

As usual, posters are doing their collective best to help out a fellow IDNet customer. Surely though it is up to IDNet Support to dig themselves out of this particular hole by offering - as in fairness to them they usually do - the loan of a configured test router that the customer just has to plug in. For what it is worth, I think that my OH would run a mile if she was asked to run ping tests unless our 12 year old grandson was at hand to help.

Most of us know just how 'unfriendly' the BT Speedtester is. Surely, if the customer runs, say 3 tests, and each time the tester asks for a change of username/password then this in itself should be sufficient evidence for IDNet support to be proactive with BT.

[Simon]

I believe IDNet did offer a test router on a previous occasion. 

[annc]

Hi Simon - yes it was used and made no difference at all - it was found to be faulty wiring on the BT hub.  Can't believe that it took so long to sort out though.

[annc]

As usual, posters are doing their collective best to help out a fellow IDNet customer. Surely though it is up to IDNet Support to dig themselves out of this particular hole by offering - as in fairness to them they usually do - the loan of a configured test router that the customer just has to plug in. For what it is worth, I think that my OH would run a mile if she was asked to run ping tests unless our 12 year old grandson was at hand to help.

Most of us know just how 'unfriendly' the BT Speedtester is. Surely, if the customer runs, say 3 tests, and each time the tester asks for a change of username/password then this in itself should be sufficient evidence for IDNet support to be proactive with BT.

Hi Ardua

IDNET now want her to do the following: 
The -150 may mean there was a problem with the tester at the time. it may be worth trying to test latency using the Windows command prompt.  Please boot the PC into safe mode with networking support and send us the results of the tests below using the windows command prompt:

ping 212.69.36.3
tracert 212.69.36.3
pathping 212.69.36.3
ping www.google.co.uk
tracert www.google.co.uk
pathping www.google.co.uk
netstat -b

Think she will have ten kittens on the spot while throwing her laptop out of the window!!!!

In my experience, not just with IDNET but with various ISP's over the years it seems that the customer is always at fault unless they can prove that they aren't.  100% of the time I have had problems it has always been either BT or the ISP itself experiencing problems that they don't want you to know about.  Most ISPs are extremely reluctant to get BT involved hence the threatening of £200 payments etc.   

[Steve]

I'll take issue with your last comment as more than often BT find nothing wrong their side of the master socket so any reasonable ISP will try to ensure that you're are not throwing £200 away.

[Technical Ben]

The request from IDNet is not blaming anyone. They are only asking "what has gone wrong" so they can then go "Oh, that's what it is, we will do [this] to fix it!"

As to booting into safe mode. This can be as easy as 2 or 3 steps.
If you can post which operating system she uses, we can write a list, and you can print it off. It would be similar to;

1) Press "F8" key when the computer is turning on, but before the windows loads up. You may need to hold it down. Then a message will come up asking how you wish to proceed.
2) Choose "Safe Mode With Networking"
3) Once windows has loaded, and you have logged on if needed, go to "start".
4) In the box for searching and typing under the "start" menu, type "Command Prompt".
5) Type the requests from IDNet one at a time. Each time, right click "select all" then press enter. Make a new text document on the desktop and paste the results into it (Ctrl-V). Then go onto the next request from IDNet in the list.

Might seem a lot, but it's much more helpful than "reset the router" from BT or Sky support. :/

[Simon]

IDNet are trying everything to avoid a BT callout charge, and unfortunately, this imvolves some work from the customer, to try to eliminate the fault being with their own wiring or equipment.  If the customer is unable, or not prepared to carry out the tests, or has no one locally who can help them to do so, then there really isn't anything else IDNet can do, other than arrange a BT engineer visit, at a potential cost to the customer. 

[annc]

Might seem a lot, but it's much more helpful than "reset the router" from BT or Sky support. :/

Ben
There I agree with you.  It would be very helpful if you could post the steps she should take, very simply, so that she can follow them easily, thank you for that offer.  She uses Windows Vista.

However, I will relate an experience I recently had with my ISP, who do offer excellent support - but.   My speeds degraded very badly and I got in touch, ran all the usual tests (I have a Mac).  They insisted the problem was my end, there was heavy uploading (apart from a couple of ordinary e-mails I never upload anything), my router had been hijacked, I had malware etc.  I was running round in ever increasing circles running every test, sending every log under the sun, but they didn't believe me. Eventually, I got a local IT firm in to look over everything and they gave my system a completely clean bill of health, phoning my ISP to tell them they had found nothing wrong whatsoever.  Hey presto, as if by magic, my speeds were back to normal.  Just one of the many experiences I have had over the years which, I am sorry to say, gives me a very jaundiced view.

[Lance]

Most ISPs are extremely reluctant to get BT involved hence the threatening of £200 payments

I really need to take issue with this.

Its not a threatening. Its a warning that if BT find no fault then you will have to pay for the cost of the BT engineer. If you've got more money then sense, you could ask support to send out a BT engineer straight away.

For most customers though, they aren't fortunate enough to be able to risk throwing £200 away and that is why good ISPs will try and do the right thing of working with the customer to eliminate possible causes of faults first.

[annc]

I really need to take issue with this.

Its not a threatening. Its a warning that if BT find no fault then you will have to pay for the cost of the BT engineer. If you've got more money then sense, you could ask support to send out a BT engineer straight away.

For most customers though, they aren't fortunate enough to be able to risk throwing £200 away and that is why good ISPs will try and do the right thing of working with the customer to eliminate possible causes of faults first.

Sorry Lance, but I know the way it was said to me by tech support prior to my initial post and it was said threateningly.  I was not being informed I was being told "the profile for the line is 7mbs therefore there must be 7mbs All we can do is call out BT and it will cost you £195"   That is why I was so very angry when I first posted.

[zappaDPJ]

Hi Zap:

To avoid confusion did you mean:   ping www.idnet.net -n 50  ?  Note idNET

I might have...


Cheers, post edited, have you seen my glasses?

[Technical Ben]

I had the same experience as you annc. Mine was with O2. They tried every "excuse" under the sun. I say excuse, because it was. They knew the problem from day one. Their technical support level 3 guy even said he had exactly the same problem. Yet, the answer was still "your router is to blame". It defied logic that they knew the problem was extreme over congestion on their BT resell product, yet in the same breath told me it was my own equipment at fault.

So, I went to IDNet. I have found them extremely helpful and honest. If they ever get the same problems O2 did, I can trust them to tell me, and not try to cover it up. I'd go back to O2, leave for Sky, or try Talk Talk or BT at the drop of a hat. But only if I knew they could be as honest as IDNet. 

[brian_idnet]

Hi Ann

If required we can arrange an out of hours call to suit when your daughter will be around to go through the tests and try and determine the cause of the fault if she is not about during our normal hours.

[Ardua]

Just so that I am clear, what line statistics does IDNet record and what line tests can it run? In this regard, how does IDNet compare with other BT Wholesale broadband re-sellers? For example, Andrews and Arnold's site suggests that they have sophisticated line monitoring tools ( I think that the word 'ping' is mentioned) and will intercede with BT when they believe that there is a line issue.

I also wonder why there isn't a 'plug in' box available to ISPs ( to send out to customers) to allow them to test line performance from the test socket and to monitor/record line performance when in use. The present system of putting most of the onus on the customer to prove a fault prior to, and I suspect during, an engineer call out is both difficult and unfair.

By way of example, after 4 months of ADSL2+, I believe that I have a HR fault on my line. When it hasn't rained for a few days and it is hot, my DSL de-synchronizes when the PTSN phone rings despite the fact that the phone is double-filtered (ADSL Nation faceplate and splitter). My router log (which includes a telephone call log) shows this to be the case. It would be nice if my ISP had this evidence in a form acceptable to BT prior to an engineer call out.

If I was to ask for an engineer call-out, do I ask my phone company or IDNet? How many router log prints would satisfy BT that a fault does exist on my line - albeit, not a constant one.

[sobranie]

If she takes her laptop to a friendly neighbours house who has bb access and the fault manifests itself there too, it will possibly point to a computer setting would it not!
Just my 2p worth.

[zappaDPJ]

A laptop also suggests the possibility of a wireless connection which almost certainly would explain the issue.

[Rik]

Just so that I am clear, what line statistics does IDNet record and what line tests can it run? In this regard, how does IDNet compare with other BT Wholesale broadband re-sellers? For example, Andrews and Arnold's site suggests that they have sophisticated line monitoring tools ( I think that the word 'ping' is mentioned) and will intercede with BT when they believe that there is a line issue.

IDNet use the standard BT tests which have been emasculated this year to only allow them a pass or fail, previously they could test individual aspects of performance. They now have to get BT to do that. Unless an ISP uses WBC (and that will only be the large ones) they are restricted to the same test. Line monitoring is similar to the tool at ThinkBroadband, and determines whether the router is in sync and whether there is any congestion. To the best of my knowledge, IDNet don't use anything like that, but they do monitor their own network continuously.

I also wonder why there isn't a 'plug in' box available to ISPs ( to send out to customers) to allow them to test line performance from the test socket and to monitor/record line performance when in use. The present system of putting most of the onus on the customer to prove a fault prior to, and I suspect during, an engineer call out is both difficult and unfair.

BT are interested in their profit margin and little else. As there's little choice for most people, ie most ISPs are based on BT products, there is no incentive for BT to make it easier.

By way of example, after 4 months of ADSL2+, I believe that I have a HR fault on my line. When it hasn't rained for a few days and it is hot, my DSL de-synchronizes when the PTSN phone rings despite the fact that the phone is double-filtered (ADSL Nation faceplate and splitter). My router log (which includes a telephone call log) shows this to be the case. It would be nice if my ISP had this evidence in a form acceptable to BT prior to an engineer call out.

It would, but see above.

If I was to ask for an engineer call-out, do I ask my phone company or IDNet? How many router log prints would satisfy BT that a fault does exist on my line - albeit, not a constant one.

If it's a voice fault, ask the phone company, otherwise IDNet. BT won't accept any amount of evidence, they will only go by what they find on the day - unless you get a particularly helpful engineer.

[Ardua]

Thanks Rik for yet another comprehensive response; however, how does IDNet's support stack up with what, for example, is stated on the AAISP website:

'Like most broadband lines we make use of links from BT to connect your broadband line to our network. This is a sensible way of providing a broadband service to the whole country, but does mean we have to deal with BT - particularly if and when things break.

We pride ourselves in having a very capable team of people that deal with faults. We have a close working relationship with BT, and our team are well known within all parts of BT for not tolerating being fobbed off.

We have detailed monitoring of lines that allow us to quickly identify faults and take action to resolve them (whether BT, or changes at your end).

In fact, we are so confident we know what we are doing, we'll even take on problems other ISPs leave behind, and that is why we make this offer.'

Put simply, is IDNet is prepared to be as pro-active as AAISP when it comes to dealing with BT?  IDNet may be technically competent but they do not always deal with the PR side of the business particularly well. The OP was looking for help from her ISP - not from IDNetters in the round.

[pctech]

It is worth pointing out though that AAISP have more information available to them than others because they use their own proprietary networking kit (Firebrick http://www.firebrick.co.uk) which they designed in conjunction with another ISP, Watchfront.

[Rik]

Put simply, is IDNet is prepared to be as pro-active as AAISP when it comes to dealing with BT?  IDNet may be technically competent but they do not always deal with the PR side of the business particularly well. The OP was looking for help from her ISP - not from IDNetters in the round.

You'd have to ask them, I can't speak for the company, I can only tell members what I know. As to the OP's motives, I'd rather not comment.

[Simon]

I'd also point out that AAISP are not magicians.  I know of someone who left IDNet for them, with the expectation of the line being fixed, and the person ended up worse off, eventually moving back to IDNet.  Sometimes BT are simply immovable.  

[Ardua]

It is worth pointing out though that AAISP have more information available to them than others because they use their own proprietary networking kit (Firebrick http://www.firebrick.co.uk) which they designed in conjunction with another ISP, Watchfront.

So it is fair to say, that IDNet may not have as much technical information available to them as other ISPs. Does this not put them at a technical and commercial disadvantage when it comes to supporting their customers? 

[pctech]

I really don't know but I think ISPs have to set up a ping test whereas AAISP's kit carries out LCP pings constantly.

I definitely think though that they are rather expensive for what they actually provide compared to the likes of IDNet and others.

[Ardua]

I really don't know but I think ISPs have to set up a ping test whereas AAISP's kit carries out LCP pings constantly.

I definitely think though that they are rather expensive for what they actually provide compared to the likes of IDNet and others.

I have stayed with IDNet for 5 years because I like the packages that they offer. However, having had major issues with ADSL2+ which, at Support's behest, led me to change faceplates, disconnect bell wires, remove DECT phones and replace 2 routers, I now have a relatively stable connection.  I now have a fully integrated ADSL/DECT router which produces a comprehensive log of events. It is by looking back over the past 2 months that I can now see the relationship between incoming calls and DSL disconnects/re-synchs which are worse when the weather is dry and hot - as it was in March/April when I re-graded to ADSL2+. It has been showery for the past 5 days and my connection has remained solid at 12.5Mbps. I might not have had so much disruption had Support been able to suggest that the reason for my disconnection might be a potential HR fault and told me what to record in the way of proof for them to put before BT.

It may be that AAISP is expensive: conversely, Sky and TalkTalk are cheap. I confess that I am looking at options to move ISP towards the end of the year when, hopefully, my exchange is FTTC-enabled. The support given to me over the past few years and comments on forums such as this will undoubtedly be a factor in my decision.

[pctech]

As has been said though unless you go with an LLU option (AAISP offer BE as well as BT circuits) then all ISPs are ultimately customers of BT.

[Ardua]

As has been said though unless you go with an LLU option (AAISP offer BE as well as BT circuits) then all ISPs are ultimately customers of BT.

I do not hold any candle for AAISP: their packages do not suit my usage pattern. To me, the choice of an ISP is no different from choosing my car insurer. Cost, usage patterns, quality of service (ie; what do customers say about them when things go wrong) etc all come into play. I confess that events over the past 12 months - loss of service, support issues and the way that they have been handled - have changed my view about IDNet to a small degree. I am also not sure that any of their FTTC packages would suit my future usage should I decide to go down this route. At the end of the day, these are all personal choices.

[pctech]

Indeed

Agreed with you on the packages which is why I use someone else for broadband.

[kinmel]

I definitely think though that they are rather expensive for what they actually provide compared to the likes of IDNet and others.

The difference is far less than some people imagine, For Adsl2+ (up to 24meg ) Idnet charged £25.52 a month and I never exceeded my limit, now with AAISP I pay £26.60 and with the same usage pattern, I don't exceed their limits either. If I was to go over the limit one month, the allowance for the next month is reduced by the appropriate amount, allowing me to balance usage over time.

I have a huge amount of information about my line from my Control Panels, which means I don't need to contact support about problems and so they can concentrate on major issues


Today one of my Panels shows that I am running on a backup fibre link...............

[pctech]

For that price though gives you 6GB  peak data and 50 GB off peak whereas IDNet offer 40GB, that to me is expensive.

[kinmel]

For that price though gives you 6GB  peak data and 50 GB off peak whereas IDNet offer 40GB, that to me is expensive.

Certainly large downloads between 9am and 6pm burn up the allowance, but I have always scheduled large downloads for evenings and weekends, when my allowance gets me 300GB

[pctech]

As always with these things its horses for courses.

[Ardua]

Certainly large downloads between 9am and 6pm burn up the allowance, but I have always scheduled large downloads for evenings and weekends, when my allowance gets me 300GB

Not sure that I understand how 6GB peak and 50GB off peak suddenly becomes 300GB evenings and weekends.

[Steve]

Not that I want to explain the complexities of AAISP pricing but essentially you pick'n'mix your peak and off peak usage and if your still on 20CN it costs a fortune for 300GB off peak. The pricing structure is akin to answering certain AS level questions

[pctech]

Yep agreed there Steve, and they say mobile phone tariffs are complex. 

[kinmel]

Not sure that I understand how 6GB peak and 50GB off peak suddenly becomes 300GB evenings and weekends.

You pay £19.40 including 2 units per month and then £3.60 per additional unit

I buy 4 units and can use them in any ratio, even down to 0.01 units from a category in a month, the terrabyte rate is effectively "unlimited" without fibre.


21CN daytime (09-18 M-F)          2GB per unit
21CN evening (18-24 M-F)       100GB
21CN night (00-09)               100GB
21CN weekend                       100GB
21CN night special                   1TB

So far this month I have used 0.79 units and have downloaded 0.95GB daytime and  120GB off peak.  I won't get charged if I exceed my quota by less than 4 extra units.

Some months I do 6Gb peak and 100Gb+ and still don't go over the limit, Peak time is only 9 hours a day, not the 16 hours a day with Idnet.

[Ardua]

Note to myself:  Add 'Easy to understand tariff' to my ISP selection criteria.

Just to veer slightly back towards the subject of this thread: IDNet is most definitely not the worst ISP - in the world!  That said, I have just been reading a thread about AAISP support where they sent out an OR engineer twice to detect and rectify an intermittent HR fault. What the thread doesn't say is whether the customer faced the possibility of two call out charges.

[zappaDPJ]

There's a lot I like about AAISP but my typical monthly usage of 30GB peak/100GB off-peak on FTTC would cost me £83.64 per month (I think). Unless they could guarantee 99.99% uptime, I wouldn't entertain those prices.

[esh]

Just to veer slightly back towards the subject of this thread: IDNet is most definitely not the worst ISP - in the world!  That said, I have just been reading a thread about AAISP support where they sent out an OR engineer twice to detect and rectify an intermittent HR fault. What the thread doesn't say is whether the customer faced the possibility of two call out charges.

You should probably note this £195 charge (in case no fault found) has only come in very recently.

Aside note: what you are paying for with IDNet is a competently managed ISP network. Sadly the physical ADSL link and the "last mile" once it gets outside of IDNet's network is all BT (unless you are LLU), which depending on where you are/what time of the year it is/how the stars are aligned can be just fine or utterly god damn abysmal.

If BT are cooperative then IDNet's network has been, for me, very stable and unconstrained. This is compared to Opal/TalkTalk which suffered an average of 3 hours per week faults on PPP or DNS.

If BT are uncooperative then you are screwed. They don't give IDNet much power in diagnosis or resolution, they won't respond at the weekends, and if all else fails you have to now risk the £195 fee for a system that relies upon so many critical factors - yet is effectively "black boxed" by BT. I've had an engineer out and say "everything's fine" -- the next one basically found all the wiring was dead. This is the same for almost all other ISPs as well. I would estimate 99% of ADSL troubles I've seen here on IDNet are BT related due to an exchange problem or wiring fault or maintenance (unscheduled) and so on, but almost always the ISP will get the blame simply because people don't fully understand how much BT are involved here. But then, should the customer really be required to know all that? Difficult question.

Rant over, normal service (ie. no service at all for BT) now resumes.


Edit: just to clarify I think you are right to voice your concerns. It was done in a slightly provocative manner though 

[Rik]

Details are given here:

http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,23284.msg555625.html#msg555625

[Ardua]

I see that one ISP is now offering phone and broadband care (including one ADSL engineer call out per year - worth up to £240) for £3.99 per month. Their package costs are slightly cheaper than IDNet. Given that insurance is available for most risks is this a sign of what is likely to happen in the future?  Presumably, ISPs keep records of all OR callouts and costs and could easily work out a sound business model.

I also note that the engineer call out pricing structure is a cost that falls on the SP not the customer. It is then up to individual ISPs to decide on how these additional costs are managed. It might be worth IDNet placing the thrust of Miriam's post on this site re charges on one of their web support pages. It is after all information that is of use to broadband users wishing to switch ISPs.

And, finally, before I get banned from posting I should add that I am not trying to be provocative for the sake of it. Recent events, and the posted experiences of others - and I appreciate that those that post with issues are in the minority - make me wonder what level of support I am actually paying for.  One never knows the true value of support until one needs it. I like to think that with all the talk about premium service I am paying for something similar to this:

'....... my line was wretched.

xxxxxxx dealt with my case from day one. He ran multiple KBD tests in a single afternoon, though they did not provide a clear diagnosis. However, the issue was taken seriously. My connection was monitored 24/7 and it was concluded that there was possibly multiple problems.

A BTO engineer called on 21 April. He fitted a new master socket and a new line was cabinet to the exchange. The connection seemed slightly more stable but it was no cure. xxxxx arranged for BTO to carry out a lift and shift on 7 May. Perhaps it was a blessing in disguise that the engineer was a tad confused. He called at the house rather than the exchange and ran though the usual diagnostics. Unlike his colleague diagnosed High Resistance Disconnect fault (HR Dis) at 64 metres. Within five minutes of the BTO guy leaving, he and another engineer were up the pole opposite. The HR Dis was fixed...but still not cure. xxxxx wanted the lift and shift carried out as planned but BT did a Tie and Pair Modification (TPM) instead, which meant some downtime. Since 11 May, four weeks ago, I've not had a single disconnection. '

Am I?  Time, I think, to get my coat.

[Rik]

Not in the least, we accept legitimate discussion of IDNet, criticism if it's due, we even allow people to talk about other ISPs.

[Technical Ben]

Your complaints are valid. I don't think anyone has anything to say against you, nor have they.

I left my job in insurance a while ago, now I try to keep as little to do with it as possible. 

But when it comes to £240 per call, I doubt any company could afford it. Look at British Gas, the AA or anyone else. They charge for call outs, they don't "absorb" the cost else where.

[Mr Booh]

Has this thread been hijacked???

[Rik]

Nothing new there.

[pctech]

Has this thread been hijacked???

Yep by the TLF (Thread Liberation Front)



We really do need to bring it back on topic.

[Tacitus]

With all this talk of people leaving iDNet for whatever reason, what would be really interesting would be to know where they go.  Do they go to other BT resellers - AAISP/Zen/Newnet etc - or do they go LLU, assuming that is an option?

If they moved because of line problems rather than cost, do those problems disappear or do they simply swap them for different ones?  If the problems were resolved was this due to more persistent tech support (= greater pressure on BT, than previously) or was it simply coincidence.

It's easy to criticise iDNet, rightly so in some cases, but is the grass really that much greener elsewhere?

[Ardua]

If they moved because of line problems rather than cost, do those problems disappear or do they simply swap them for different ones?  If the problems were resolved was this due to more persistent tech support (= greater pressure on BT, than previously) or was it simply coincidence.

As far as I can tell from what I have read, the example that I quoted above was of an ex-IdNetter who transferred to another ISP, via Virgin Media, because of unresolved HR Dis issues with his line. He clearly believes that his new ISP has been able to put greater pressure on BT because of the line monitoring systems that it has in place.

From a personal perspective, all I am trying to ascertain - based on the OP's support experience and that of others on this forum - is what level of support I am paying for and should expect?  This is but one of many factors that comes into play when choosing an ISP. With supposedly 4 months to go before FTTC is available on my exchange, do I ask Support to help resolve a HR Dis problem that I believe exists on my line or am I just throwing away £200: £50 of which would be better spent on a future FTTC installation?  Others have said that by carrying out a raft of ISP suggested checks on internal wiring etc, this reduces the chance of an OR call out charge for a no fault found. Just to put this one to bed, it would be interesting to know from IDNet the proportion of OR visits that have resulted in a cost falling to the customer.

[Rik]

Again, I can't answer the specific question, you'd have to ask IDNet. However, to put support in perspective, most people spend less than £1/day with IDNet. In my case, that includes the phone line and a calls allowance.

My water charges are about the same, my gas and electricity charges are almost four times that, my council tax is at a similar level. Do I get occasional ADSL problems? Yes, I've had a couple while I've been with IDNet, both have been fixed without cost to me. A voice fault was also sorted, an engineer was here within a couple of hours of me calling support. Have I had power cuts, yes, two or three in the same period and numerous switching spikes. Have I lost water supply, yes, once.

What's the connection? In some ways, none. ADSL/phone is a one-to-one service, other utilities are one-to-many, ie we share water and gas pipes, electricity cables. However, they are all now thought of as utilities by us, and we expect them to work whenever we want them. It's much easier for the 'normal' utilities to achieve that than it is for an ISP, though. They delivery a common commodity to us, and can often route around a trouble spot.

ADSL, though, requires every element of a complex system to be working, starting from the customer's router, running through the BT line to the exchange (usually with multiple joints along the way and, therefore, potentially multiple points of failure), through the exchange equipment, where several chunks of electronics can cause trouble, and where BT may not have enough capacity at a given time. We then have to navigate through the BT network and radius servers before we reach our ISP. Once again, with the ISP's network, there's potentially multiple points of failure in servers, routers and switches before we get passed to the outside world of the web. There, once again, in the multiple peering and routing we pass through, there's yet more chances of failure - we see them reported regularly and, where possible, IDNet will change their routing to bypass that problem. Just to add to the mix, ADSL is subject to RF interference, and that is hard to track down if it's outside our own homes.

The support that you pay for is a tiny fraction of the amount you pay to IDNet. What should you expect? That they will do the best job they can to resolve the issue with BT, subject to the restraints that BT impose. The SFI charges are an example of the way BT set the rules, it's not that long ago that getting an engineer out was a matter of only incurring a charge if no fault was found, or it was found in the customer's wiring or equipment.

It would be possible to provide a higher level of support, and this is, indeed, available to business customers where, for £20+VAT pm, they can purchase enhanced care and an SLA. Those are the only lines which BT will do anything about outside of normal business hours, ie 9-5, Mon-Fri.

In other words, you can choose to have a higher level of support, but it comes at a price. Even if IDNet offered 24/7 support, perhaps using an offshore call centre, with BT's restrictions for 'normal' lines, it wouldn't achieve anything more.

Meantime, IDNet will work with their customers to try and resolve a problem, but it does require co-operation from the customer. If the latter is unwilling to carry out the suggested tests, then the chances are that they will end up with a £200+ bill from BT, and that's why support will take people through an extensive check list where no fault is reported by the line test - to save the customer money if at all possible. It would, of course, be much cheaper to simply book an engineer on first contact. Which begs the question, should IDNet pass on the charges? Well, with packages starting from as little as £168pa, would you absorb the costs if it was your business?

There's one other pertinent fact. Do a BT speedtest and look at the range of acceptable speeds. BT provide a 'best efforts' service, and the range that they consider normal is very wide. My service can fall to 600k before BT consider it unacceptable.

[Tacitus]

I agree with everything you say Rik.  However I was musing as to whether those who leave iDNet for whatever reason, do in fact get a better service.  More precisely whether that 'better service', if in fact it exists, is due to the 'new' ISP doing something that iDNet were unable to do.

Or, as I suspect, is it simply a case of coincidence and the grass always being greener 

I can accept that moving to an LLU ISP, may in some circumstances be better - I was really looking at those who moved to another based on BT Wholesale.

(Note: I'm probably derailing this thread) 

[Rik]

I was responding more to Ardua, Tac.

On your point, we really don't know. Only occasionally do we hear the outcome. Of those, some resolve their problems, others have moved back to IDNet.

[Ardua]

Rik, as usual your calm courtesy shines through. It is probably best if I withdraw from this debate and sit back and watch my router unrecoverable errors rise each time the phone rings. Fortunately, with cool weather and recent showers, I haven't had an ADSL disconnection for 7 days. Sadly, 'Vorsprung Durch Tecknik'  hardware doesn't allow me to make use of RouterStats so that I can see what is really going on with my line nor can I use 'TELNET' as it puts a marker on my router that stops me from getting any manufacturer's support. (The router has a 5 year warranty so support is not to be thrown away lightly). Clever chaps these Germans.

[Rik]

I'm not suggesting anyone sit back if they have a problem, I was just trying to put a perspective on the difficulties involved in delivering broadband and cost factors/limitations which prevent the level of support we might all like.

[JNeuhoff]

I agree with everything you say Rik.  However I was musing as to whether those who leave iDNet for whatever reason, do in fact get a better service.  More precisely whether that 'better service', if in fact it exists, is due to the 'new' ISP doing something that iDNet were unable to do.

Or, as I suspect, is it simply a case of coincidence and the grass always being greener  

I am an ex-IDNet customer, I left IDNet because of its poor customer service and its inability to have BT sort out the local exchange and/or backbone problems.

I went for a CPW LLU broadband (Xilo) which is 2 to3 times faster and only costs me half the price IDNet used to charge. Service has been very reliable since my switchover despite the fact that it still uses the same physical copper wire. Others may have had a more positive experience with IDNet, copper-based broadband often is more like a gamble and less of a normal utility. The whole BT strategy with its copper usage is in a real mess.

[Bill]

I am an ex-IDNet customer, I left IDNet because of its poor customer service and its inability to have BT sort out the local exchange and/or backbone problems.

A slightly disingenuous post... it was pretty much established that the problem was lack of capacity at a small exchange, so you seem to be blaming IDNet for being unable to persuade BT to build a bigger one.

You had plenty of suggestions to switch to LLU for at least a year before before you finally did.

Glad you're happier now.

[Dopamine]

With all this talk of people leaving iDNet for whatever reason, what would be really interesting would be to know where they go.  Do they go to other BT resellers - AAISP/Zen/Newnet etc - or do they go LLU, assuming that is an option?

I was an IDNet customer from Jan 2008 until May this year, when I moved to Be. I moved for one main reason: IDNet's poor customer service. Although the support opening hours have always been terrible and of no use to anyone who works "normal" hours, in 2008 I did at least get the impression that I was talking to people that cared. As time passed and I had need to call support - almost always about slowdowns that were subsequently rectified by IDNet purchasing more bandwidth - support staff, with the exception of Miriam, seemed more and more disinterested in dealing with anything; invariably their first response would be to ask me to send them an email with my problem/complaint.

The internet, although far from perfect, is becoming ever more reliable - yes, even allowing for BT's shortcomings - and customer support will become more and more the deciding factor in choosing an ISP. If IDNet's support was open longer and staffed by people who could at least pretend to be interested, I'd have stayed with IDNet. As it was, the cumulative effect of poor support and the past denial of capacity problems pushed me away.

For those that are interested, Be has been 100% reliable for the five weeks I've been with them, with a steady 10mbps download at any time of day or night. My initial fears about signing up to a 12 month contract appear so far to be unfounded. I've had no need to contact their support (although, should I need to, they are open 24hrs a day...)

This post was prompted by Tacitus's question, not by a desire to knock IDNet. As BT resellers go, IDNet is still one of the better ones. If only they would sort out their customer service...

[JNeuhoff]

A slightly disingenuous post... it was pretty much established that the problem was lack of capacity at a small exchange, so you seem to be blaming IDNet for being unable to persuade BT to build a bigger one.

You had plenty of suggestions to switch to LLU for at least a year before before you finally did.

There was no LLU available on that exchange a year ago. And there was never a lack of capacity at that exchange because other lines with other ISPs going through the same exchange, using the same old 20CN technology, never experienced the extreme slowdowns or connectivity issues. With the most expensive MaxPremium product from IDNet available at that time we simply expected a better customer support. As I said in the past, things might be different for 21CN or FTTC products, and maybe one day IDNet will go with different non-BT backbone providers, too.

[Rik]

This post was prompted by Tacitus's question, not by a desire to knock IDNet. As BT resellers go, IDNet is still one of the better ones. If only they would sort out their customer service...

I speak to all the customer service team several times a week, and I don't recognise the problems you describe. I do recognise that there are limitations in what they can do, especially since BT reduced the available tools, and I also recognise that some customers find it difficult, or they are unwilling, to carry out the diagnostics that are usually asked for (to reduce the chance of an expensive bill from BT). IDNet will arrange an out of hours support call for those unable to contact them during their normal working hours. However, for those wanting 24/7 support, IDNet is clearly not the right ISP.

I've tried to give a perspective on the service versus the cost at reply #65. There's really nothing more I can add, and I do not see the point in this thread remaining open for ex-customers to air old grievances. You have made your decisions to leave, you are happy with your new ISPs and I am pleased for you.

Let's leave it there.