Probably the worst ISP - in the world!

[Steve]

Not that I want to explain the complexities of AAISP pricing but essentially you pick'n'mix your peak and off peak usage and if your still on 20CN it costs a fortune for 300GB off peak. The pricing structure is akin to answering certain AS level questions

[pctech]

Yep agreed there Steve, and they say mobile phone tariffs are complex. 

[kinmel]

Not sure that I understand how 6GB peak and 50GB off peak suddenly becomes 300GB evenings and weekends.

You pay £19.40 including 2 units per month and then £3.60 per additional unit

I buy 4 units and can use them in any ratio, even down to 0.01 units from a category in a month, the terrabyte rate is effectively "unlimited" without fibre.


21CN daytime (09-18 M-F)          2GB per unit
21CN evening (18-24 M-F)       100GB
21CN night (00-09)               100GB
21CN weekend                       100GB
21CN night special                   1TB

So far this month I have used 0.79 units and have downloaded 0.95GB daytime and  120GB off peak.  I won't get charged if I exceed my quota by less than 4 extra units.

Some months I do 6Gb peak and 100Gb+ and still don't go over the limit, Peak time is only 9 hours a day, not the 16 hours a day with Idnet.

[Ardua]

Note to myself:  Add 'Easy to understand tariff' to my ISP selection criteria.

Just to veer slightly back towards the subject of this thread: IDNet is most definitely not the worst ISP - in the world!  That said, I have just been reading a thread about AAISP support where they sent out an OR engineer twice to detect and rectify an intermittent HR fault. What the thread doesn't say is whether the customer faced the possibility of two call out charges.

[zappaDPJ]

There's a lot I like about AAISP but my typical monthly usage of 30GB peak/100GB off-peak on FTTC would cost me £83.64 per month (I think). Unless they could guarantee 99.99% uptime, I wouldn't entertain those prices.

[esh]

Just to veer slightly back towards the subject of this thread: IDNet is most definitely not the worst ISP - in the world!  That said, I have just been reading a thread about AAISP support where they sent out an OR engineer twice to detect and rectify an intermittent HR fault. What the thread doesn't say is whether the customer faced the possibility of two call out charges.

You should probably note this £195 charge (in case no fault found) has only come in very recently.

Aside note: what you are paying for with IDNet is a competently managed ISP network. Sadly the physical ADSL link and the "last mile" once it gets outside of IDNet's network is all BT (unless you are LLU), which depending on where you are/what time of the year it is/how the stars are aligned can be just fine or utterly god damn abysmal.

If BT are cooperative then IDNet's network has been, for me, very stable and unconstrained. This is compared to Opal/TalkTalk which suffered an average of 3 hours per week faults on PPP or DNS.

If BT are uncooperative then you are screwed. They don't give IDNet much power in diagnosis or resolution, they won't respond at the weekends, and if all else fails you have to now risk the £195 fee for a system that relies upon so many critical factors - yet is effectively "black boxed" by BT. I've had an engineer out and say "everything's fine" -- the next one basically found all the wiring was dead. This is the same for almost all other ISPs as well. I would estimate 99% of ADSL troubles I've seen here on IDNet are BT related due to an exchange problem or wiring fault or maintenance (unscheduled) and so on, but almost always the ISP will get the blame simply because people don't fully understand how much BT are involved here. But then, should the customer really be required to know all that? Difficult question.

Rant over, normal service (ie. no service at all for BT) now resumes.


Edit: just to clarify I think you are right to voice your concerns. It was done in a slightly provocative manner though 

[Rik]

Details are given here:

http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,23284.msg555625.html#msg555625

[Ardua]

I see that one ISP is now offering phone and broadband care (including one ADSL engineer call out per year - worth up to £240) for £3.99 per month. Their package costs are slightly cheaper than IDNet. Given that insurance is available for most risks is this a sign of what is likely to happen in the future?  Presumably, ISPs keep records of all OR callouts and costs and could easily work out a sound business model.

I also note that the engineer call out pricing structure is a cost that falls on the SP not the customer. It is then up to individual ISPs to decide on how these additional costs are managed. It might be worth IDNet placing the thrust of Miriam's post on this site re charges on one of their web support pages. It is after all information that is of use to broadband users wishing to switch ISPs.

And, finally, before I get banned from posting I should add that I am not trying to be provocative for the sake of it. Recent events, and the posted experiences of others - and I appreciate that those that post with issues are in the minority - make me wonder what level of support I am actually paying for.  One never knows the true value of support until one needs it. I like to think that with all the talk about premium service I am paying for something similar to this:

'....... my line was wretched.

xxxxxxx dealt with my case from day one. He ran multiple KBD tests in a single afternoon, though they did not provide a clear diagnosis. However, the issue was taken seriously. My connection was monitored 24/7 and it was concluded that there was possibly multiple problems.

A BTO engineer called on 21 April. He fitted a new master socket and a new line was cabinet to the exchange. The connection seemed slightly more stable but it was no cure. xxxxx arranged for BTO to carry out a lift and shift on 7 May. Perhaps it was a blessing in disguise that the engineer was a tad confused. He called at the house rather than the exchange and ran though the usual diagnostics. Unlike his colleague diagnosed High Resistance Disconnect fault (HR Dis) at 64 metres. Within five minutes of the BTO guy leaving, he and another engineer were up the pole opposite. The HR Dis was fixed...but still not cure. xxxxx wanted the lift and shift carried out as planned but BT did a Tie and Pair Modification (TPM) instead, which meant some downtime. Since 11 May, four weeks ago, I've not had a single disconnection. '

Am I?  Time, I think, to get my coat.

[Rik]

Not in the least, we accept legitimate discussion of IDNet, criticism if it's due, we even allow people to talk about other ISPs.

[Technical Ben]

Your complaints are valid. I don't think anyone has anything to say against you, nor have they.

I left my job in insurance a while ago, now I try to keep as little to do with it as possible. 

But when it comes to £240 per call, I doubt any company could afford it. Look at British Gas, the AA or anyone else. They charge for call outs, they don't "absorb" the cost else where.

[Mr Booh]

Has this thread been hijacked???

[Rik]

Nothing new there.

[pctech]

Has this thread been hijacked???

Yep by the TLF (Thread Liberation Front)



We really do need to bring it back on topic.

[Tacitus]

With all this talk of people leaving iDNet for whatever reason, what would be really interesting would be to know where they go.  Do they go to other BT resellers - AAISP/Zen/Newnet etc - or do they go LLU, assuming that is an option?

If they moved because of line problems rather than cost, do those problems disappear or do they simply swap them for different ones?  If the problems were resolved was this due to more persistent tech support (= greater pressure on BT, than previously) or was it simply coincidence.

It's easy to criticise iDNet, rightly so in some cases, but is the grass really that much greener elsewhere?

[Ardua]

If they moved because of line problems rather than cost, do those problems disappear or do they simply swap them for different ones?  If the problems were resolved was this due to more persistent tech support (= greater pressure on BT, than previously) or was it simply coincidence.

As far as I can tell from what I have read, the example that I quoted above was of an ex-IdNetter who transferred to another ISP, via Virgin Media, because of unresolved HR Dis issues with his line. He clearly believes that his new ISP has been able to put greater pressure on BT because of the line monitoring systems that it has in place.

From a personal perspective, all I am trying to ascertain - based on the OP's support experience and that of others on this forum - is what level of support I am paying for and should expect?  This is but one of many factors that comes into play when choosing an ISP. With supposedly 4 months to go before FTTC is available on my exchange, do I ask Support to help resolve a HR Dis problem that I believe exists on my line or am I just throwing away £200: £50 of which would be better spent on a future FTTC installation?  Others have said that by carrying out a raft of ISP suggested checks on internal wiring etc, this reduces the chance of an OR call out charge for a no fault found. Just to put this one to bed, it would be interesting to know from IDNet the proportion of OR visits that have resulted in a cost falling to the customer.

[Rik]

Again, I can't answer the specific question, you'd have to ask IDNet. However, to put support in perspective, most people spend less than £1/day with IDNet. In my case, that includes the phone line and a calls allowance.

My water charges are about the same, my gas and electricity charges are almost four times that, my council tax is at a similar level. Do I get occasional ADSL problems? Yes, I've had a couple while I've been with IDNet, both have been fixed without cost to me. A voice fault was also sorted, an engineer was here within a couple of hours of me calling support. Have I had power cuts, yes, two or three in the same period and numerous switching spikes. Have I lost water supply, yes, once.

What's the connection? In some ways, none. ADSL/phone is a one-to-one service, other utilities are one-to-many, ie we share water and gas pipes, electricity cables. However, they are all now thought of as utilities by us, and we expect them to work whenever we want them. It's much easier for the 'normal' utilities to achieve that than it is for an ISP, though. They delivery a common commodity to us, and can often route around a trouble spot.

ADSL, though, requires every element of a complex system to be working, starting from the customer's router, running through the BT line to the exchange (usually with multiple joints along the way and, therefore, potentially multiple points of failure), through the exchange equipment, where several chunks of electronics can cause trouble, and where BT may not have enough capacity at a given time. We then have to navigate through the BT network and radius servers before we reach our ISP. Once again, with the ISP's network, there's potentially multiple points of failure in servers, routers and switches before we get passed to the outside world of the web. There, once again, in the multiple peering and routing we pass through, there's yet more chances of failure - we see them reported regularly and, where possible, IDNet will change their routing to bypass that problem. Just to add to the mix, ADSL is subject to RF interference, and that is hard to track down if it's outside our own homes.

The support that you pay for is a tiny fraction of the amount you pay to IDNet. What should you expect? That they will do the best job they can to resolve the issue with BT, subject to the restraints that BT impose. The SFI charges are an example of the way BT set the rules, it's not that long ago that getting an engineer out was a matter of only incurring a charge if no fault was found, or it was found in the customer's wiring or equipment.

It would be possible to provide a higher level of support, and this is, indeed, available to business customers where, for £20+VAT pm, they can purchase enhanced care and an SLA. Those are the only lines which BT will do anything about outside of normal business hours, ie 9-5, Mon-Fri.

In other words, you can choose to have a higher level of support, but it comes at a price. Even if IDNet offered 24/7 support, perhaps using an offshore call centre, with BT's restrictions for 'normal' lines, it wouldn't achieve anything more.

Meantime, IDNet will work with their customers to try and resolve a problem, but it does require co-operation from the customer. If the latter is unwilling to carry out the suggested tests, then the chances are that they will end up with a £200+ bill from BT, and that's why support will take people through an extensive check list where no fault is reported by the line test - to save the customer money if at all possible. It would, of course, be much cheaper to simply book an engineer on first contact. Which begs the question, should IDNet pass on the charges? Well, with packages starting from as little as £168pa, would you absorb the costs if it was your business?

There's one other pertinent fact. Do a BT speedtest and look at the range of acceptable speeds. BT provide a 'best efforts' service, and the range that they consider normal is very wide. My service can fall to 600k before BT consider it unacceptable.

[Tacitus]

I agree with everything you say Rik.  However I was musing as to whether those who leave iDNet for whatever reason, do in fact get a better service.  More precisely whether that 'better service', if in fact it exists, is due to the 'new' ISP doing something that iDNet were unable to do.

Or, as I suspect, is it simply a case of coincidence and the grass always being greener 

I can accept that moving to an LLU ISP, may in some circumstances be better - I was really looking at those who moved to another based on BT Wholesale.

(Note: I'm probably derailing this thread) 

[Rik]

I was responding more to Ardua, Tac.

On your point, we really don't know. Only occasionally do we hear the outcome. Of those, some resolve their problems, others have moved back to IDNet.

[Ardua]

Rik, as usual your calm courtesy shines through. It is probably best if I withdraw from this debate and sit back and watch my router unrecoverable errors rise each time the phone rings. Fortunately, with cool weather and recent showers, I haven't had an ADSL disconnection for 7 days. Sadly, 'Vorsprung Durch Tecknik'  hardware doesn't allow me to make use of RouterStats so that I can see what is really going on with my line nor can I use 'TELNET' as it puts a marker on my router that stops me from getting any manufacturer's support. (The router has a 5 year warranty so support is not to be thrown away lightly). Clever chaps these Germans.

[Rik]

I'm not suggesting anyone sit back if they have a problem, I was just trying to put a perspective on the difficulties involved in delivering broadband and cost factors/limitations which prevent the level of support we might all like.

[JNeuhoff]

I agree with everything you say Rik.  However I was musing as to whether those who leave iDNet for whatever reason, do in fact get a better service.  More precisely whether that 'better service', if in fact it exists, is due to the 'new' ISP doing something that iDNet were unable to do.

Or, as I suspect, is it simply a case of coincidence and the grass always being greener  

I am an ex-IDNet customer, I left IDNet because of its poor customer service and its inability to have BT sort out the local exchange and/or backbone problems.

I went for a CPW LLU broadband (Xilo) which is 2 to3 times faster and only costs me half the price IDNet used to charge. Service has been very reliable since my switchover despite the fact that it still uses the same physical copper wire. Others may have had a more positive experience with IDNet, copper-based broadband often is more like a gamble and less of a normal utility. The whole BT strategy with its copper usage is in a real mess.

[Bill]

I am an ex-IDNet customer, I left IDNet because of its poor customer service and its inability to have BT sort out the local exchange and/or backbone problems.

A slightly disingenuous post... it was pretty much established that the problem was lack of capacity at a small exchange, so you seem to be blaming IDNet for being unable to persuade BT to build a bigger one.

You had plenty of suggestions to switch to LLU for at least a year before before you finally did.

Glad you're happier now.

[Dopamine]

With all this talk of people leaving iDNet for whatever reason, what would be really interesting would be to know where they go.  Do they go to other BT resellers - AAISP/Zen/Newnet etc - or do they go LLU, assuming that is an option?

I was an IDNet customer from Jan 2008 until May this year, when I moved to Be. I moved for one main reason: IDNet's poor customer service. Although the support opening hours have always been terrible and of no use to anyone who works "normal" hours, in 2008 I did at least get the impression that I was talking to people that cared. As time passed and I had need to call support - almost always about slowdowns that were subsequently rectified by IDNet purchasing more bandwidth - support staff, with the exception of Miriam, seemed more and more disinterested in dealing with anything; invariably their first response would be to ask me to send them an email with my problem/complaint.

The internet, although far from perfect, is becoming ever more reliable - yes, even allowing for BT's shortcomings - and customer support will become more and more the deciding factor in choosing an ISP. If IDNet's support was open longer and staffed by people who could at least pretend to be interested, I'd have stayed with IDNet. As it was, the cumulative effect of poor support and the past denial of capacity problems pushed me away.

For those that are interested, Be has been 100% reliable for the five weeks I've been with them, with a steady 10mbps download at any time of day or night. My initial fears about signing up to a 12 month contract appear so far to be unfounded. I've had no need to contact their support (although, should I need to, they are open 24hrs a day...)

This post was prompted by Tacitus's question, not by a desire to knock IDNet. As BT resellers go, IDNet is still one of the better ones. If only they would sort out their customer service...

[JNeuhoff]

A slightly disingenuous post... it was pretty much established that the problem was lack of capacity at a small exchange, so you seem to be blaming IDNet for being unable to persuade BT to build a bigger one.

You had plenty of suggestions to switch to LLU for at least a year before before you finally did.

There was no LLU available on that exchange a year ago. And there was never a lack of capacity at that exchange because other lines with other ISPs going through the same exchange, using the same old 20CN technology, never experienced the extreme slowdowns or connectivity issues. With the most expensive MaxPremium product from IDNet available at that time we simply expected a better customer support. As I said in the past, things might be different for 21CN or FTTC products, and maybe one day IDNet will go with different non-BT backbone providers, too.

[Rik]

This post was prompted by Tacitus's question, not by a desire to knock IDNet. As BT resellers go, IDNet is still one of the better ones. If only they would sort out their customer service...

I speak to all the customer service team several times a week, and I don't recognise the problems you describe. I do recognise that there are limitations in what they can do, especially since BT reduced the available tools, and I also recognise that some customers find it difficult, or they are unwilling, to carry out the diagnostics that are usually asked for (to reduce the chance of an expensive bill from BT). IDNet will arrange an out of hours support call for those unable to contact them during their normal working hours. However, for those wanting 24/7 support, IDNet is clearly not the right ISP.

I've tried to give a perspective on the service versus the cost at reply #65. There's really nothing more I can add, and I do not see the point in this thread remaining open for ex-customers to air old grievances. You have made your decisions to leave, you are happy with your new ISPs and I am pleased for you.

Let's leave it there.