Speeds

[Tanzanite]

On Sam Knows: According to BT Wholesale, your line should be able to support a 5Mbps or greater ADSL connection via ADSL Max.

Now I was led to believe my line can't support more than 5mbps, but I'm thinking that my line may have been dodgy when ADSL MAX was first put on the line and may have interfered with this.

I am 1.49km from the exchange, straight line distance.

Can anyone tell me if I may be able to get more speed.

[Lance]

If you run a BT speedtest and post the results here, along with the stats from your router, that would be a good start for us Eve. At least then we know what we are trying to increase the speed from!

If you haven't already, you may wish to read Rik's sticky and think about some of the things there, such as removing the ring wire etc.

Lance

[Tanzanite]

What I failed to mention in my half asleep state last night is that if you remember I had an ex BT engineer sort out my line problems recently. The extension socket was wired incorrectly and this had been like it for 6yrs.
I was put on ADSL MAX last July so my thinking is the fault was obviously there through the 10 day stabilisation period and would affect what BT thought my line could handle, no?

The ex Bt man said he thought I should be able to support 6-7mb.

My IP profile is 4500

[Rik]

We still need your router stats, Eve. The faulty line may well have affected your speed during the 'training' period. That, in turn, will have affected MSR & FTR but these figures are academic. The line management software should adjust to an improved line and lift your profile.

[Tanzanite]

DSL Modulation Mode:     MultiMode
DSL Path Mode:    Interleaved
Downstream Rate:    5120 kbps (Has been 5440 max)
Upstream Rate:    448 kbps
Downstream Margin:    15 db
Upstream Margin:    25 db
Downstream Line Attenuation:    43 db
Upstream Line Attenuation:    11 db

[Rik]

It looks like your target noise margin has been set to 15db to stabilise the line. If you are happy that you are not losing sync frequently, have a word with support about getting the target margin reduced. That will give you the extra speed.

[Tanzanite]

I dont think I have any disconnections. Though the noise margin falls to a negative number from about 9pm. There's no  line up count or anything on this router    From 9pm I do get the pop up thing from the wireless connection on the laptop saying I'm connected, this happens once or twice in the evening, would this be a disconnection?

If the margin was reduced how much extra would I get? I wouldn't need to get the 10 day stabilisation thing again would I?

I know my actual speed is between 3.50mb-4.50mb and it seems to slow down when I click on a link then speed up again which can be annoying. I'm pretty happy with average of 4mb but obviously if my line can go up to 6-7mb then I'd like to get it.

[Rik]

If your noise margin is going negative at night, Eve, there's still noise pickup on your line. It would be pointless having your margin reduced as you will have instability which will probably result in a lower profile. To be experiencing 16db+ or noise swing is unusual - either there is still something wrong with your internal wiring, or you have a problem with your exchange line/equipment. I think you need to talk to support.

[Tanzanite]

Unless it's the new router. I dont seem to remember it going negative at night with my last one.

I'll have to play around with different routers and filters again and see what happens. I don't want to keep bothering support lol
Just thankful I'm not getting less than 2mb as I was for the past 9mths.

The engineer did say he thoroughly checked everything and it was all fine, he couldn't see any problems at all. When I put this router in the test socket it's exactly the same sync speed as it is now, though not sure about the negative noise margin at night.

[Rik]

Those are all variables to eliminate, Eve. If you are absolutely satisfied that your own equipment and wiring are not to blame, then you need to talk to support. After testing your line, they can raise a fault with BT if necessary.

[Tanzanite]

I've changed the filters, now getting:
Downstream Rate:     5504 kbps (most ever since the line was fixed)
Upstream Rate:    448 kbps
Downstream Margin:    8 db (interesting)
Upstream Margin:    25 db
Downstream Line Attenuation:    42 db
Upstream Line Attenuation:    11 db

Thats the linksys router.
Just tried the Speedtouch and it didn't like that, sync speed was 4720.

[Rik]

Well, as the filter is straight-through on the ADSL side, that suggests something on your line is adding noise. What sort of sync can you get with only the router connected?

You have Sky multi-room, iirc? Sky boxes are notorious for putting noise on the circuit, so you might like to try double-filtering both boxes, ie two filters in series. Also check that, if Sky installed the phone cables for the boxes, they didn't split the pairs.

Remember not to change too much too fast, as that might tigger DLM and a drop in your profile.

Your current sync speed is right in the middle of the range for a 4500 profile.

[Tanzanite]

I'll keep it as it is and see what happens this evening with the disconnects/noise margin. That's the first time ever I've had such a low noise margin in the day. It's always been around 14-15.
Don't want to drop my speed, so will have to try just the router tomorrow after I've seen what it does today now I've changed filters.

Yes Sky+ upstairs with router and phone. Normal Sky box downstairs on its own. I've doubled the filters upstairs for the Sky+ already. Maybe a dodgy sky+ phone lead? How do I check for split pairs on that?

[Rik]

Maybe a dodgy sky+ phone lead? How do I check for split pairs on that?

You'd need to physically examine the connectors, Eve. Did your ex-BT guy take a look when he did the work on your line?

[Tanzanite]

Not that I know of.

[Tanzanite]

Something weird just happened.

My mum emptied the (plastic) bin which is in front of the phone point, this caused the router lead to be stretched as it's quite short and the bin gets in the way. My noise margin shot up to 14. Surely it's not the bin lol Router lead?

Have just re-adjusted it and it's fallen down to 6 now.

Hang on a mo, it's fluctuating  up and down 6 to 10, then 15. 

[Rik]

In that case, try disconnecting the Sky boxes at the box end, see if the noise margin improves. If it doesn't, then re-connect there and try disconnecting the leads at the telephone socket end. Still no difference? The Sky leads/boxes are not a problem.

If you stress the lead from the router to the phone socket, you could cause disconnections or noise, especially if it damages the contacts in the socket. Can you find a new home for the bin?

[Tanzanite]

It's definately the sky boxes    Took the Sky+ one out at the phone point/filter it fell to 10db, then I took the one out downstairs, it fell to 6-7.

Doubled up the filters downstairs and the noise margin was still at 7. I put the one in back upstairs with double filters and it went up to 9 and seems to be staying there at the mo.

Can I just buy a new phone lead for the sky boxes, would that do it?

[Rik]

Not necessarily, Eve. My own Sky boxes have no effect, but in general terms, they are notorious for causing problems with ADSL. As you have multi-room(?) you have to keep them both connected. If you didn't, I'd advise you to disconnect them the moment you were out of the 12-month contract.

You could test the Sky-installed leads by running substituting a normal extension lead (preferably not a flat one) between the box and the phone socket, bypassing their leads. If that improves things, chances are it's poor quality cable or a split pair.

[Tanzanite]

Yes, it's a multiroom one and have to keep them connected.

So, plug the end of the sky phone lead into an extension lead then plug that into the filter/phone point? Surely that would still have the same problem, unless I'm not getting what you mean lol

[Rik]

Hi Eve

Normally, when you get a Sky box installed, they will run an extension lead from the nearest phone point to where the box is situated. That usually ends in a doubler at the phone socket end, and a single socket at the box end. It's that cable I want you to bypass, so take the modem (black) cable from the Sky box into an extension lead and take the other end of the extension lead and connect it to a microfilter. That will bypass the Sky phone wiring, and eliminate, or identify, it as a problem. In all probability, it's the box itself.

[Tanzanite]

All I know is that there is a long black lead that goes from the sky box downstairs to the phone socket, the phone point down there is the other side of the room from the box.

Upstairs black lead from sky+ box to phone point.

Still confused lol It's harder to understand something when it's just typed without pictures lol I'm sure it's simple but just can't get my head round that.
How can I bypass that lead if I'm just going to put it in an extension lead, the signal will still be going through the same lead?

Think I'll go back to bed lol

[Rik]

Hi Eve

Are you saying that both Sky boxes only have the modem lead connected straight to a phone socket? IOW, there's a lead which plugs into the box, and that runs straight to a hard-wired phone socket.

[Tanzanite]

In one word, yes.

[Rik]

In that case, the cabling isn't an issue, all you can do is double-filter the boxes.

That does mean, though, that your Sky+ box must be quite close to your router, doesn't it? Or are you connecting wirelessly?

[Tanzanite]

So what's causing it if it isn't the lead from the boxes as when I took them out the noise margin went to 6-7? The boxes themselves? Which are on standby at the mo and when I took them out/plugged back in.
Had the boxes about 2yrs though the Sky+ one a bit less as the first one blew up in a storm and it kept saying the telephone line wasn't connected.

Wireless connection, the router is about 4ft away at least from the sky box. Though in that little corner with the phone point I have a mini fridge, a/c unit, tv, stereo, thought he tv and stereo are further over by about 2ft. I know, not great but there's no where else the router will stretch too.

So I'll have to make do with the 9db noise margin, though it's a big improvement on 15db! lol

[Rik]

The modems in the Sky boxes are not very high quality, Eve, and seem to put a lot of noise on the line. That's why I recommend double-filtering - hopefully, what the first one doesn't get, the second one will.

Wireless connection, the router is about 4ft away at least from the sky box. Though in that little corner with the phone point I have a mini fridge, a/c unit, tv, stereo. I know, not great but there's no where else the router will stretch too.

That's certainly not ideal, lots of electrical noise right on top of the phone connection. 9db is probably as good as it's going to get in terms of noise margin, I suspect, as you are probably picking up lots of spikes off both the fridge and air-con. Is there no other location/mains socket you could move them to?

[Tanzanite]

Not really at the moment. I do need to change my tv and stereo round to a different place so I may be able to move the fridge a little. As for the a/c thats not an option as it's a professionally fitted one on the wall with a very short lead (hangs halfway down the wall) which I have to plug into an extension socket. The router plugs into the same extension socket and sits on a cupboard underneath but to the side of the a/c as far away as I can get it from all the electrical stuff.

[Rik]

The big thing to consider with the router is the path of the lead from the phone socket to the router. It should be well separated from mains leads where at all possible, and should cross them at right angles, rather than run parallel to them.

If you're connecting wirelessly, could the router move to a new location to improve its resilience?

[Tanzanite]

I can't even have the router downstairs as there's no electrical socket anywhere near the phone point     Old house, not enough sockets, could maybe get a new one put in down there at some point though.

Will try and keep the router lead in a better position as you suggest.

Will keep an eye on the stats and any disconnection over the next few days now the noise margin is lower. Hoping I may sync at a higher speed too now. I disconnect the router over night because of the negative noise margin from middle of the evening.

[Rik]

You should start seeing a higher sync if the noise margin stays at 9db, Eve, though it may take a few days - the mysteries of DLM. Once you have the higher sync, then your profile should follow.

[Tanzanite]

Thanks Rik, huge help  At least I found out what it was quicker this time lol

Have a Karma.

[Rik]

Glad to help and thank you, Eve. Of course, you could disconnect the Sky boxes until they start writing to you... Or, given you turn the router off overnight, try connecting the Sky boxes only during that period...

[Tanzanite]

I've already had a letter from them once when I blocked my number from showing up when I rang out lol They might charge me if I did it again.

Though they tend to do that sort of thing at night so might be ok if they were in only at night. Not sure if I should risk it though.

[Rik]

The call backs are usually only at night, and they will write several times before charging you. I think it's worth a try, but then I'm not paying the bill.

[Tanzanite]

You're very welcome to pay it for me Rik 

[Rik]

Ah, but if I did it for you, Eve, there's another 498 forum members would want the same treatment.

[Tanzanite]

Ah well, it was worth a try lol

When I first had broadband I didn't realise it was so complicated. I just plugged in my frog modem and surfed. It was surprising and frustrating to find that the slightest thing can affect speed. All AOL used to tell me to do is to defrag and change a few settings including lowering the hardware acceleration on the graphics card. It did help a bit but obviously it was just slightly helping the symptoms and not the cause. I've never had so much help since I came here, I love this place and IDnet of course  I'm keeping Idnet a secret, not recommending it to anyone even though I'm desperate to lol I don't want it to turn into thousands and thousands of users and clogging up my speed and the support lol

[Rik]

The graphics card acceleration should not affect ADSL. I suspect that was more to do with the USB modem. If you still have acceleration reduced, go back to full speed and see if there are any problems.

It really is worth tweaking MTU & RWIN though - the sticky gives details. It's possible to get a 10% speed improvement by optimising these, especially if you're still running AOL's MTU setting of 1400.

I think we're all quite protective of IDNet, but Simon and Tim have a good track record for growing capacity ahead of demand - so the more people we can bring to the company, the better it could be for us all.

And yes, I do find the forum a special place...

[Tanzanite]

This morning, despite nothing changing my noise margin is back up to 15 and sync speed is a little lower. Im fed up

[Rik]

It all points to noise pickup, Eve. See how it is tomorrow, I notice I had a re-sync last night - it seems to be a weekend thing for me, and noise always seems worse on a Sunday, possibly cross-talk.

If it's still acting up tomorrow, then it would be worth calling support and seeing what advice they can offer. Do bear in mind, though, that if they get an engineer out to check the line, you could be faced with a bill.

[Tanzanite]

Thing is it seems to be the Sky boxes.

This morning I synced at about 5044, noise margin 15. I unplugged downstairs sky , noise margin fell to 9, unplugged my sky upstairs then rebooted router. When I rebooted it the sync speed was a little higher 5216 but the noise margin went back up to 15  ???Sky boxes still unplugged at that point.

So I plugged the sky boxes back in and then the noise margin fell again to 8 and seems to be fairly stable. Haven't rebooted router again but I bet it would go back to 15 if I did.

I have set up router stats so you can have a look. One from last night, where it starts going all over the place from about 7.30pm whats interesting last night is that normally it stays under 2 and goes to a negative number but then back to 2. Last night it went back up to 6 between it's dips to a negative number. No disconnection though.

One from this morning when unplugging sky and rebooting etc.

Just the noise margin in the graphs.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

Hi Eve

We need to clear up a slight mis-communication here. Your target noise margin is 15db, so anything which reduces the figure is bad. When you re-boot the router, your connection will negotiate a speed with a 15db margin, what happens after that is down to noise, ie the more the noise that's being picked up, the lower your noise margin becomes.

Given what you say, it would appear that the Sky boxes are having a bad effect. However, the second graph has a massive amount of noise going on until about 9:25, then goes stable. Was that the point at which you plugged the Sky boxes in? If so, it would imply that your wiring is picking up noise when not 'terminated'. I have seen this happen, particularly if the filters are left connected. Was this the case?

[Tanzanite]

This is so confusing lol I thought that the more noise on the line then your noise margin goes up so logically if it goes down there's less noise.

The 2nd graph was when I started router stats this morning. You can see that the noise margin is about 12db. When it drops to 9db is when I unplugged the sky boxes, the pink colour is when I rebooted the router and it went back to 15db. I then plugged the sky back in and within 5mins of doing that the noise margin went to 2db then up to 8db and stayed there. I put the tv on half hour ago and the noise margin has been creeping up slowly to about 11/12db.

The filters were removed when I unplugged the sky boxes.

[Lance]

Think of it like this:

You have noise of 100
You get problems (ie re-syncs) when noise gets to 110.

You therefore have a noise margin of 10 (110-100).

If noise was to increase to 105 your new margin would be 5 (110-105).

This shows that an increase in noise will decrease your noise margin.

Hope this helps.

[Tanzanite]

Ok, but that still doesn't explain when I unplug the sky boxes and the tv is turned off the noise increases  Completely baffled.

Also why would a lower noise margin mean a higher speed if lower noise margin means there's more noise 

[Tanzanite]

Think I'll just give up and leave it as it is lol When I was first on MAX my sync speed was higher than it is now, not loads but enough to give me about another half to 1mg of actual speed.

Ideally I should move the router downstairs to get away from all the electric stuff near it but difficult when there's no plug socket anywhere near the phone point.

[Rik]

This is weird, Eve.

Back to terminology. Noise margin is the amount of signal in hand above the point at which the router could not detect the ADSL signal from the background noise. Back in fixed-rate days, that was likely to be 20db or more and, as a result, we rarely saw any disconnections. Max, otoh, starts with a target margin of 6db, and your router syncs with the highest speed it can achieve with that margin. If you pick up a lot of noise on the line, the margin will fall, possibly sufficiently to cause a re-sync. If this happens repeatedly, then the line management software starts to increase your target noise margin in steps of 3db, until it finds a level at which you have a reasonably stable connection. In the process, your sync speed and profile will decrease.

You have a target margin of 15db, hence you will see this figure immediately after a re-boot. However, something is causing your circuit to pick up large amounts of noise (at least 17db from the graphs). The fact that plugging in the Sky boxes seems to lower your margin I can understand, the fact that having them unplugged and the circuit 'unterminated' was worse I cannot understand - though I have seen it happen before. The fact that turning on the TV helps is a major puzzle. I'm beginning to wonder whether there is some interaction between your mains and phone circuits.

Did the ex-BT man check all the sockets and ensure there were no split pairs?

[Tanzanite]

He did check both sockets, removed the ring wires and the extension socket upstairs was put in incorrectly. He did say something about split pairs but when he had finished he said there was absolutely nothing wrong with it now as he had sorted it all.

[Rik]

There's one more thing you could try, which is to power down (ie, unplug) both Sky boxes (also unplug from the phone line) and the TV. If the noise margin increases, plug the TV in, but don't turn it on. If the margin is still OK, plug the Sky boxes back in one at a time. If the margin decreases when you power any of these devices up, then they are radiating interference which is bring picked up by the phone line, the phone-to-router cable or the router itself. You might just improve things with a shielded ADSL modem lead - some people have had good results from them, others have not.

[Tanzanite]

Oh and the leccy socket near the phone point upstairs was recently rewired but he's one of the best electricians round here. The front of the socket was hanging off and had been for ages so he sorted all that. It wouldn't surprise me if it was something in the electrics as one of the sockets in the house had an illegal wire in it which he took out and he said it looked like someone not very experienced had done the electrics in the house.

It's a rented house which was used by squatters, used tro be a shop years ago and when the squatters moved out and the whole house was sorted, the electrics were rewired. The whole house should be demolished, we've had a lot of problems in this house, leaks, ceiling falling down, there's one lightbulb in the house upstairs which goes regularly. The non double glazed windows rattle in their rotten frames with a slight breeze, I could go on! Yes, I would move but it's diffiuclt to get somewhere else in my situation.

[Tanzanite]

Ok, will have to try that.
Can try the shielded lead too.

Think it's going to be a case of putting up with it though. At least I'm not at 1.5mg as I was before.

[Lance]

You might just improve things with a shielded ADSL modem lead - some people have had good results from them, others have not.

I found using one improved my connection stability and consequently speed. I think it helped because the ADSL lead has to run alongside a power lead, which previously it was picking up noise from.

[Tanzanite]

Where did you get yours from lance?

[Lance]

It was about £10 from Maplin. You can probably find them cheaper online but I wanted to get it the same day.

[Rik]

Mine was also from Maplin, I have one 'on the doorstep'. PC World do the Belkin version, but it's probably about £15.

[Tanzanite]

What about this one? here

5m is a bit long tho. Wouldn't that make things worse being so long?

[Rik]

Oh and the leccy socket near the phone point upstairs was recently rewired but he's one of the best electricians round here.

The main wiring, in itself, should be a problem, but it might act as an antenna for anything plugged into it. The mains isn't shielded and doesn't use twisted pairs, so only proximity is really an issue there. The lghtbulb issue could be caused by a faulty holder, which is arcing. Look at the solder blobs on the bulb to see if there's signs of 'melt'. If that were the case, it would be increasing the noise around your system.

[Rik]

5m is a bit long tho. Wouldn't that make things worse being so long?

They used to do a 1m version, but seem to have discontinued it. Belkin has a 1.8m version, from memory. In theory, you want to keep the lead as short as possible. OTOH, 5m compared to the cable run to the exchange is not significant. It may also allow you to site the router in a better position.

[Tanzanite]

Just to double check before I buy, this one?

Probably be £5 postage on top of it 

[Rik]

That should be OK, Eve. Hopefully, they'll stick it in a jiffy bag for you and charge a reasonable amount of carriage.

[Tanzanite]

Thanks. Done  £4.50 postage though.

[Rik]

It's always the way, sadly.

[Tanzanite]

I know, I buy 99% of everything I need (and want lol) online. Do resent paying high postage charges though for a small or cheap item. Though I suppose some cables can be heavy.

Right, I'm off to stuff me face lol 

[Rik]

The problem with carriage on small items is that companies still have to pay the postage, buy the packaging (Jiffy bag?) and pay someone to put the item in it, seal it, address it etc. I suppose they could increase prices generally, and absorb (or hide) the carriage, as some Channel Islands firms do, or they can keep their prices down, and charge the carriage. Either way, we pay.

[Inactive]

Thanks. Done  £4.50 postage though.

Postage free over £30 spend, I think... 

[Tanzanite]

lol There's nothing else I need though!

[Inactive]

lol There's nothing else I need though!

typical, I bet you will tomorrow, if you are like me.

[Tanzanite]

 

typical, I bet you will tomorrow, if you are like me.

Well there's plenty of things I'd like, just not there 

[Rik]

typical, I bet you will tomorrow, if you are like me.

I'm a member of that club too.

[Tanzanite]

I tend to do that when I do a Boots shop online, always, always forget at least one thing.

[Rik]

So we need a "Forgot something" club to go with the "Deja Vu" club? 

[Tanzanite]

Or the getting old and forgetful club 

[Tanzanite]

I've changed the router lead to the shielded one, not much difference. Maybe a slight one with the noise margin being a bit more stable but I've noticed  I'm getting disconnections again in the day now  Maybe once a day, some days none.
Also, my Auntie got me to try a torrent thing to download something. I got LOADS of discconnections while that was going. How come?
Screen shot below.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Rik]

Hi Eve

I don't do torrents, so can't comment much on them. What the graph does show, though, is that you still have a tremendous amount of noise pickup, if you can't eliminate it locally, the only thing I can suggest is to call support and get them to test the line, if there's a problem on the BT side, they will escalate it for you.