LLU service now available from IDNet - Discuss here

[davej99]

We don't know, Dave.

Sorry, Rik, can't resist on the subject of knowing, as Sir Humphrey might say,

Ministers do not know what they need to know. So those who know what Ministers need to know, must tell them what they need to know, whether they need to know or not. Then when Ministers find they need to know, or wish they didn't know, they already know, whether they know they know or not.

[mervl]

Sorry folks, but like most people I don't want to pay the cost of all this customer psychology! And I really wasn't aware that Coke and Pepsi e-mail all their consumers when they change the formulation of their (rubbish) products. (There is enough junk in my inbox already).

I recognise that like all mass market products (and broadband is a mass market product) I have to fit my use to the product (EDIT: and continue to do so when things change over time). It isn't difficult if you try. Just like you can moan about anything if you try hard enough. It's consumer psychology, unfortunately. If you need a BT service buy it from BT retail, and don't tell me the fib that you can't afford it.

[pctech]

Not sure what the issue is, they will move you if you request or they think your line will perform better, if you want to leave they will move you without charge back to a BT circuit and issue a MAC and probably absorb any cost.

Can't say fairer than that.

[Gary]

As far as I am aware it's not full LLU, the voice connection stays as is.

Cheers I can let my mother know about that Steve, as she is on IDNet

[Gary]

Sorry folks, but like most people I don't want to pay the cost of all this customer psychology! And I really wasn't aware that Coke and Pepsi e-mail all their customers when they change the formulation of their (rubbish) products. (There is enough junk in my inbox already).

I recognise that like all mass market products (and broadband is a mass market product) I have to fit my use to the product (EDIT: and continue to do so when things change over time). It isn't difficult if you try. Just like you can moan about anything if you try hard enough. It's consumer psychology, unfortunately. If you need a BT service buy it from BT retail, and don't tell me the fib that you can't afford it.

Thats not the point as  I see it, in this day and age we have enough issues finding out what, when, how! I dont want my BB supplier deciding on my behalf whether to let me know about a big change because I may not understand what's under the hood hats for me to decide not them, that's a bit draconian tbh. People have a right to the information so if the want they can research the changes, being kept in the dark to only find out later you got moved will make some people think it was an underhand move, especially if they have issues later on. I think not emailing people is a bad move. Enough of that goes on as it is in other industries...

[pctech]

I think the overriding purpose is to give a better experience which couldn't be said for a lot of companies.

[Rik]

I'll get my couch out and invite them round.

[Tacitus]

I think the overriding purpose is to give a better experience which couldn't be said for a lot of companies.

Exactly, but apparently that's not good enough. 

[pctech]

Apparently not, AAISP charge a helluva lot more for a BE wholesale circuit.

[Technical Ben]

I'm amazed at some people on here.

I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection and the advantages speak for themselves. Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!! 

We can no longer moan about BT? Oh wait, that is a positive thing.
Most are not moaning, it was just a surprise. A surprise and a change. Unknown, a change and a surprise. Once people get over the surprise, the change has happened and they know there are not drawbacks, all will be good.

[Rik]

Apparently not, AAISP charge a helluva lot more for a BE wholesale circuit.

It costs IDNet more too.

[Technical Ben]

Sad that that is the case Rik. Considering O2 subsidised their own service so heavily (and suffer because of it at times). The subsidies are not good for customers in the long run (over subscribed and under funded infrustructure could result) but when buying, the price has a large draw to new customers. It makes it harder for IDNet to compete.

Mind you, I know what it feels like to not want certain new customers anyhow (those who pay little, demand a lot and ask for impossibilities/contradictions!).

[Rik]

What, our lot, Ben? 

[Ardua]

We can no longer moan about BT? Oh wait, that is a positive thing.
Most are not moaning, it was just a surprise. A surprise and a change. Unknown, a change and a surprise. Once people get over the surprise, the change has happened and they know there are not drawbacks, all will be good.

I would suggest that most of the moans on this and on other ISP websites relate to problems with the wires between the exchange and the pc. What benefit does LLU bring if, for example, there is an intermittent HR fault between the home and the cabinet? Am I right in saying that there will still be the issue of 'if you want an engineer and no fault is found then the customer pays'? Not many broadband users understand, or even wish to know about, DSLAMs, Pings or downstream SNRs. They just want broadband that works as advertised on the tin, and when it breaks they know that their ISP will push BT to have the problem resolved at no cost to the customer.

[Rik]

You're right, the weak link is still the last mile, which is under Openreach control regardless of whether the connection is LLU or BT. OTOH, LLU allows the ISP to tweak the most out of the line and doesn't use the artificial download ceiling of a BT profile, so they will get a better service most of the time from the LLU connection.

[Simon_idnet]

O2 subsidised their own service so heavily (and suffer because of it at times).

If you walk down the High Street you will likely see quite a few mobile phone shops - but how many ISP shop fronts? I think that tells you where the money is (and where the cross-subsidies come from).

[Technical Ben]

Oh yes, I know.

I meant it's quite unfair for you. If Sky or Virgin or BT or O2 could subsidise IDNet, then there would be no question on comparisons. But I'm still here, even though the price is not subsidised, cos the service and business practices are much more valuable.

It's a bit like Tesco building a new shop next to the brilliant butchers or green grocers. They will still be able to compete, but it makes it harder. (Tesco could run a store as a loss leader, the butchers/green grocers cannot)

[SSK]

You're right, the weak link is still the last mile, which is under Openreach control regardless of whether the connection is LLU or BT. OTOH, LLU allows the ISP to tweak the most out of the line and doesn't use the artificial download ceiling of a BT profile, so they will get a better service most of the time from the LLU connection.

What about if there is a card fault at the exchange? Is that still BT province?
Twice in the past (before I moved to IDNET) my internet connection was down for days (once for almost 3 weeks!), first because BT refused to acknowledge a card fault, then it took them more days to decide to switch out the card and another couple of days to get a replacement.

All this sort of information about future migrations, enginerr vists, warnings about BT tester, etc (or at least a link to that information) could have been sent out by email to people who've just been switched.

BTW - to those who say they don't want their fees to be used for customer psychology - it actually costs very little and much of the time nothing at all. How much does it cost to send out an email? How much does it cost to answer a phone courteously and helpfully?

How many times have we seen in this forum people complain about phone calls to support being curt unhelpful, only to get the reply that it's BT fault and there's nothing support can do? The fact that support can't do anything but wait for BT is no excuse for giving the impression that they couldn't care less. Of course, being nice and soothing won't get the problem solved any quicker but at least it doesn't alienate the customer. Alienating a customer not only leads to losing that customer but leads to them giving low ratings on websites and telling all their friends to stay away.

The fact that support might still be waiting for BT is no excuse for not bothering to reply to a customer's follow-up email. How much would it cost and how much time would it take to send a reply email saying "sorry, but we're still waiting for BT"?

Sean

[Rik]

Anything in the exchange is BT dependent, only Openreach can work there.

Yes, more information could, and probably should, have been given to users, but I suspect that, after the trials, IDNet were in a hurry to deploy the new service to those who would benefit. The nuances of the change may have been over-looked in the enthusiasm.

I've seen lost of complaints over the years from members, yet I probably spend more time on the phone to them than any other customer, and they have been unfailingly helpful to me even though I am phoning about someone else's connection. OTOH, I know of cases where people have phoned 10 times a day or more, and simply shouted at them. It might not be perfect, but it is very human in that situation that they don't get the answers they want. In my experience, how you speak to people affects how they speak to you.

[Simon]

Very true, Rik. 

[Tacitus]

How many times have we seen in this forum people complain about phone calls to support being curt unhelpful.......

Don't forget that we only ever hear one side of the story.  I remember getting involved in one iDNet thread on TB and it soon became obvious that the complainer was a complete ******* who had some sort of axe to grind or vendetta to pursue.  Never did get to the bottom of it since in the end the mods locked it, but judging by his posts, had support told me they'd had nothing but foul mouthed abuse from the guy, I would have no problem believing it.

The many people who simply get good reliable service never (or seldom), bother to say so.

Perhaps in this case an email would have been a good idea, but the lack of one hardly constitutes the end of the world, considering the benefits people should gain.

[davej99]

In my experience, how you speak to people affects how they speak to you.

In my experience too. No matter how much one wishes to choke the life out of the people at the other end of the phone when things go haywire, one can always get better results by being calm, friendly and non-confrontational. Helping people to help you is very much the best policy. Remember also, folks in customer service generally are getting abused for a living and do get hardened, so pleasantry up front is always going to get the call off to a good start and motivate a favourable outcome. I like to get a name and use it during the call. I often apologise for appearing difficult and always finish the call by thanking the other party for their time, courtesy and expertise, whether I have been helped or not. Invariably I get thanked for saying that.

I think I have only spoken to IDNET tech support once or twice and maybe emailed three times in four years. I could not fault their speed of response, courtesy and the quality of the advice received.

[Rik]

Thanks for that, Dave. You're right, support staff do spend their lives getting stick, a little humanity goes a long way with them.

[esh]

Good news everyone.

I got my arse in gear and installed a new ADSL2 device. Getting a thoroughly respectable 11.5Mbps down now. Upload is about the same, ~0.65Mbit which is a little disappointing but fine.

Overall a damn good upgrade for free, about twice the bandwidth, and twice the speed (and remember BT don't offer ADSL2 here!).

[Lance]

A great result, Esh