LLU service now available from IDNet - Discuss here

[Ardua]

I don't think that anyone is arguing about contractual rights. My point is this. If I was on a slow ADSL1 service and IDNet could see that I would benefit from transferring to LLU (ADSL2+) and made the change without telling me, I would be a little annoyed to find that I had lost internet connection because my aged Netgear DG834 was not ADSL2+ capable. I only changed my 6 year old router 6 months ago because ADSL2+ became available at my exchange. Not all broadband users change their routers as frequently as their underwear. Clearly, IDNet can do what it wants but the customer also reserves the right to walk if he/she doesn't like what is happening. This threat can be reduced if there is good communication between the ISP and its customers.

[Lance]

My point is this. If I was on a slow ADSL1 service and IDNet could see that I would benefit from transferring to LLU (ADSL2+) and made the change without telling me, I would be a little annoyed to find that I had lost internet connection because my aged Netgear DG834 was not ADSL2+ capable.

I've been doing some research and it has become clear that if your router does not support ADSL2+ but is on a ADSL2+ connection, it will still work in normal up to 8mb ADSL mode. Therefore, the argument about not changing wholesale supplier because customers might not have updated their router is void.

[Simon_idnet]

Indeed, and if a customer has a router that will not play nice then one of the advantages of Telefonica is that we can change the modulation back to ADSL1 (Max) within a few minutes in order to bring the service back online (rather than waiting overnight for BT to change a Profile). We really cannot see any downside to improving a customers wholesale provision in this way. That said, if anyone wishes to revert we will be more than happy to oblige.

[SSK]

Do we question which power station generates our electricity as long as it works? Ideally, I'd have liked to see emails sent to customers warning of the change, as there might be some downtime, and that may happen as the programme gets into full swing. However, doing so could end up in an email exchange if the customer doesn't want the move.

There is no legal reason why IDNET should notify customers. The T&Cs make it clear a customer would have no grounds to object. Personally, my initial reaction was that I don't really care and my more thoughtful reaction was that the move was probably overall a good thing. However, apart from courtesy and the fact that it is generally good customer relations to keep customers informed, there are some practical aspects.

For example, when it was noticed I'd been switched there was a not unreasonable concern that future migrations to a BT-using ISP might give rise to additional expense. Yes, that concern was answered adequately, but I had to ask, taking up my time and the time of IDNET support.

Also, with the switch to LLU the BT speedtester no longer works, but if you don't know you've been switched to LLU, you won't know why the BT speedtester suddenly stops working - the error message isn't very specific to those of us who don't know much about such things. So a newly-switched customer might keep trying and then possibly have to contact support to find out why it isn't working. More time wasted.

An automatic email to those being switched, explaining the consequences, eg BT test, etc, and allaying fears about any future migration cost, etc could avoid many requests for support.

Would there be as many emails from those not wanting to move as there may be additional email requests for support for the above reasons? I've no idea. However, I think a customer would be happier with the move and less likely to object if he's told why the switch is being made and what the consequences are than if he finds out about the move only when, for example, he enquires about why the BT speedtester suddenly stopped working? Emails to support would probably need to be dealt with on an individual basis, but it should be possible to have a template response for those who don't want to move.

Running my own business in a 'service industry' I know that customer interactions are just as important as the actual quality of the service provided. I've  found from experience that keeping customers informed makes them feel that you care about them and generates customer loyalty. Loyal customers not only stay with you but are more forgiving when the inevitable cock-up occurs. So even if automatic notification did lead to more people emailing to say they don't want to move (which I doubt) it would still pay dividends in customer good-will.

Sean

[esh]

Hi Ardua.

As noted above my equipment does not appear to be ADSL2 capable and I did not record any connection drop from my end. I shall try and procure some more modern devices however.

[.Griff.]

I'm amazed at some people on here.

I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection and the advantages speak for themselves. Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!! 

[Lance]

I know, Griff. I'm also surprised that people feel they should be told who their wholesale supplier is. If it works and there is no impact, why does it matter? I guess it's because in my job my customers don't care how the outcome/objective is met, so long as it is.

[Niall]

After being reassured by Simon's post about the cost (or lack thereof) of switching to LLU and back if a move was needed, I think I'd jump on LLU, although it's not on my exchange and from what I've read on the BT site, FTTC will be available before be/o2 get equipment installed in my exchange!

Ho hum.

* Niall stares at samknows

[.Griff.]

I could be wrong Niall but from reading posts on the Be forum (which is members only albeit I still have access being an ex Be customer) Be/O2 have no plans to increase their LLU presence meaning if your exchange isn't currently Be/O2 enabled it's not going to be at any time in the near future.

[Tacitus]

I'm amazed at some people on here.
Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!! 

I agree griff.  I too have been been reading this thread and am utterly bemused by the response.  Twelve months ago after the great BT failure, all we were hearing was, "iDNet should go LLU, should sue BT," etc etc.  I don't doubt they lost many customers at the time. 

Here we have an old-fashioned business - old-fashioned in the sense that it listens to its customers and attempts to improve its offer - yet still people have to find something to complain about.

[Gary]

That's ok Gary, I'd be happy to take the connection off you then.      

Considering the number of peeps that have had ongoing issues on ADSL 2+ I'm staying on ADSL max.

[Ardua]

If, as many above suggest, this is a 'win-win' situation for both IDNet and its customers then why doesn't Simon shout about the change from the rafters? An e-mail to existing customers saying something along the lines of ' IDNet in its pursuit of improved service for its customers has decided that ........  What this means for you as a customer is .............  As far as your contract with IDNet is concerned nothing will change?  Surely, this has to be a better way of communicating a change rather than placing it on a forum that most IDNet customers will never visit. If as others suggest this is nothing more than changing a red van for a green van then why mention the change at all?

[Lance]

The reason maybe for posting it here but not doing wider publicity is possibly because members on this forum in the past have been quite vocal in suggesting that Idnet gain another wholesale supplier.

I expect the majority of customers don't care, or aren't bothered as long as it just works.

[Gary]

I'm amazed at some people on here.

I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection and the advantages speak for themselves. Everyone on here, with maybe one or two exceptions, moans constantly about BT and their antiquated and shambolic provision yet here we have IDNet doing something proactive and people still moan!! 

I can see a potential issue, but I'm not sure if O2 is full LLU, community home careline units dont work on LLU if the phones goes to LLU as well, not sure if thats the case here, if it is that would cause untold issues as my emergency careline and pill reminder service would fail. For instance Talk Talk LLU stopped my mother being able to use a careline as they need BT lines to call the control centres.

[Steve]

As far as I am aware it's not full LLU, the voice connection stays as is.

[davej99]

.....  I'm also surprised that people feel they should be told who their wholesale supplier is. If it works and there is no impact, why does it matter? ........

Surprised or not, it is clear a proportion of customers feel they should be informed of major changes in the way our broadband service is provided. However, the general view is that Telefonica LLU is advantageous, so there is little downside and probably a lot of upside to be had from marketing this improvement positively, to both existing and new customers.

The trouble comes when customers have problems, even if unrelated to LLU, and they discover they have been moved over without their knowledge. This is not like domestic electricity supply; broadband is fragile and immature technology by comparison. As a result customers are a little paranoiac, rightly so. Many of us have been had over by other ISPs in the past and we all know LLU provision is in itself no guarantee of a good service.

Invariably it is better to over-communicate with customers, especially if one's business is built on trust and capability. It's not that it matters; it's that customers can think it matters. And if the mud ends up on the fan, for what ever reason, it's good to have goodwill in the bank.

[Rik]

One risk of a mass email is that the service will not be available to everyone, so some receiving it would feel aggrieved.

[pctech]

Are there any plans to add an option to the order form to select LLU?

[Rik]

I haven't heard, Mitch.

[Simon_idnet]

We anounced it here as you lot are most likely to appreciate what it is all about. Most of our customers are corporates who just don't want know what's 'under the hood' and regard the technicalities as, at best, arcane semantics but mostly just as Geek Gobbledegook.

[pctech]

They might care if a JCB turned up and started to dig their car park 

[davej99]

We anounced it here as you lot are most likely to appreciate what it is all about. Most of our customers are corporates who just don't want know what's 'under the hood' and regard the technicalities as, at best, arcane semantics but mostly just as Geek Gobbledegook.

What customers want to know and what they should be told is not the same thing; a bit like Prime Ministers.

[davej99]

One risk of a mass email is that the service will not be available to everyone, so some receiving it would feel aggrieved.

On the subject of availability, do we know if Telefonica LLU coverage will be expanded, or as Griff has suggested, is that not going to happen? It would be nice to think, where there might be sufficient demand, they might be persuaded.

[Rik]

We don't know, Dave.

[SSK]

I'm amazed at some people on here.
I can't think of a single negative of moving from a BT Wholesale connection to a Be/O2 LLU connection

It is not so much of a disadvantage but it can be a surprise when the BT speedtester stops working and one doesn't know why.

As has been pointed out, changing to LLU has advantages, so telling a person being shifted the advantages of the shift is good public relations. It advertises the cleverness and caring nature of the company taking these steps to improve the service.

Even if it didn't make any difference at all, it is good customer relations to keep people informed. That way they feel they are valued and not being treated like commodities on the company balance sheet.

One risk of a mass email is that the service will not be available to everyone, so some receiving it would feel aggrieved.

I agree, but that isn't what I meant by automatic emailing. When the list of people to be shifted is decided is it beyond the bounds of modern technology to have emails sent automatically to people on that list?

As for people not caring what's 'under the hood' - many people who buy a car don't really care whether it's got 16 valves or 24 valves, 6 cylinders or 5, etc, yet manufacturers advertise these things, even put it on their cars. It impresses those who do care and doesn't put off those who don't.

IDNET is selling somethng (eg internet connectivity). Selling things isn't just about the product but about customer psychology (Coke, Pepsi are examples of that). The people at IDNET are technically very good. They provide a good service. But they often don't seem to have much idea about customer psychology.

Sean