No connection

[Ardua]

It's the team now, officially, Tac, I'm retired.

The problem yesterday seems to have been that IDNet's monitoring couldn't see the failure, because a radius server issue simply means people can't log in - nothing falls over to sound an alarm. Consequently, the more people who can reach the forum and alert us, the quicker we can make contact with IDNet and alert them. As far as I can tell, the OOH support, which is fundamentally script-driven, don't have the same level of direct contact that we do.

Rik - the 'problem seems to have been'  and 'from what we have been told' are hardly definitive answers to an outage that has affected IDNet's customers. Other ISPs have status pages which show the individual issues; their status and what has been done to close them out. Not rocket science - just good company/customer communications.

As far as OOH's Support is concerned, IDNet has only itself to blame for the confusion. You will recall that in July, Miriam said:

Currently IDNet provide an Out of Hours messaging service for Customers to report faults outside of business hours. As you will appreciate, due to the very small amount of calls we receive during these times, it was not previously realistic to employ staff 24/7 on the chance one or two calls might come in.

However, many of our valued Customers voiced concern with the inability to actually speak to a member of the Support Team outside business hours. In today's increasingly 'on-line' society we understand that Customers can feel undervalued by some companies when they are constantly met with email only assistance and off-shore call centres. It is for this very reason that IDNet are committed to providing free UK based Support and in a further effort to maximise Customer Satisfaction we are pleased to announce the introduction of 24/7 Support.

As of 27th July 2011 you can contact IDNet Support for technical assistance at any time of the day or night on our usual free phone number 0800 331 7000.

It is not surprising that IDNet's customers are confused when they speak to IDNet Support OOH only to find that it is a 3rd party who may, or may not, have visibility of IDNet's network problems.

[Rik]

I think that needs revising.  OTOH if iDNet do that they will be besieged with calls which rather nullifies the point of having a call centre based system....

Exactly. We try and get a good picture of what is happening before we make contact, and only if the problem is large-scale do we interrupt Simon or Tim's weekend. If we abused that privilege by attempting to intervene for individual members, it would soon disappear.

[Rik]

Rik - the 'problem seems to have been'  and 'from what we have been told' are hardly definitive answers to an outage that has affected IDNet's customers. Other ISPs have status pages which show the individual issues; their status and what has been done to close them out. Not rocket science - just good company/customer communications.

We are just customers, like you. We do our best to get information to members, and provide feedback from members to IDNet. My speculation is based on almost five years of working closely with IDNet, and having a reasonable idea of how their monitoring is set up. If you are unhappy with the level of communication from the company, I can only suggest you make direct contact. I'm certainly not prepared to chase the directors at a weekend to get the status page updated.

As far as OOH's Support is concerned, IDNet has only itself to blame for the confusion. You will recall that in July, Miriam said:

Currently IDNet provide an Out of Hours messaging service for Customers to report faults outside of business hours. As you will appreciate, due to the very small amount of calls we receive during these times, it was not previously realistic to employ staff 24/7 on the chance one or two calls might come in.

However, many of our valued Customers voiced concern with the inability to actually speak to a member of the Support Team outside business hours. In today's increasingly 'on-line' society we understand that Customers can feel undervalued by some companies when they are constantly met with email only assistance and off-shore call centres. It is for this very reason that IDNet are committed to providing free UK based Support and in a further effort to maximise Customer Satisfaction we are pleased to announce the introduction of 24/7 Support.

As of 27th July 2011 you can contact IDNet Support for technical assistance at any time of the day or night on our usual free phone number 0800 331 7000.

It is not surprising that IDNet's customers are confused when they speak to IDNet Support OOH only to find that it is a 3rd party who may, or may not, have visibility of IDNet's network problems.

I agree that the wording of the announcement could have been better. However, in IDNet's defence, let me explain the background. First, customers complained that they couldn't talk to IDNet at the weekend or of an evening. IDNet can, in fact, do little to help anyone who is not paying for enhanced care during these hours anyway. It would be possible to employ an extra staff member or two to provide 24/7 support, but there would be a cost to the customer in doing so. The OOH support was, therefore contracted out to a UK call centre, who act as first line support. They have been provided with scripts to handle routine issues, but I confess that, when I tested the service when it was introduced, I was disappointed by the response. IDNet are aware of the issues, but I cannot tell you more without breaching confidentiality. If the OOH call centre cannot resolve the issue, they pass the call to IDNet in the same way as the old 'leave a message or email...' used to work.

Unfortunately, yesterday's problem, being outside the IDNet network, did not show on any of their systems monitoring, and it was only by the pattern revealed here that we were able to get an idea of what was going on. At that time, I contacted Simon Davies directly, rather than going through the normal channels. As I have already mentioned, this is something we only consider doing for major faults, as it's a privilege which can soon be removed if we abuse it - hence I'm not going to nag today on the status page.

As a group of volunteers, we do our best to act as a conduit between members and IDNet, in and out of office hours. We make sure they are aware of threads such as this, and we often take up issues on behalf of members where the member has difficulty contacting support for any reason, or where there appears to be a misunderstanding. We can do no more.

I've been with IDNet for five years plus now, and I'm staying put - I appreciate the level of service and the willingness to engage. Each of us, though, must make their own decision as to whether they are happy with the company.

[seaweasel]

Any news on whether BT have resolved this? Just tried turning modem off for about quarter of an hour and restarting it and router but still no luck.

[Steve]

Whats your set up? Are you using separate modem and router on adsl?

[seaweasel]

PEBKAC error Steve. Realised I had re-entered my password on the router when I initially started troubleshooting it yesterday - and I had an extra character in the password. Thanks anyway!

[Rik]

Phew.

[Ardua]

We are just customers, like you. We do our best to get information to members, and provide feedback from members to IDNet. My speculation is based on almost five years of working closely with IDNet, and having a reasonable idea of how their monitoring is set up. If you are unhappy with the level of communication from the company, I can only suggest you make direct contact. I'm certainly not prepared to chase the directors at a weekend to get the status page updated.

I agree that the wording of the announcement could have been better. However, in IDNet's defence, let me explain the background. First, customers complained that they couldn't talk to IDNet at the weekend or of an evening. IDNet can, in fact, do little to help anyone who is not paying for enhanced care during these hours anyway. It would be possible to employ an extra staff member or two to provide 24/7 support, but there would be a cost to the customer in doing so. The OOH support was, therefore contracted out to a UK call centre, who act as first line support. They have been provided with scripts to handle routine issues, but I confess that, when I tested the service when it was introduced, I was disappointed by the response. IDNet are aware of the issues, but I cannot tell you more without breaching confidentiality. If the OOH call centre cannot resolve the issue, they pass the call to IDNet in the same way as the old 'leave a message or email...' used to work.

Unfortunately, yesterday's problem, being outside the IDNet network, did not show on any of their systems monitoring, and it was only by the pattern revealed here that we were able to get an idea of what was going on. At that time, I contacted Simon Davies directly, rather than going through the normal channels. As I have already mentioned, this is something we only consider doing for major faults, as it's a privilege which can soon be removed if we abuse it - hence I'm not going to nag today on the status page.

As a group of volunteers, we do our best to act as a conduit between members and IDNet, in and out of office hours. We make sure they are aware of threads such as this, and we often take up issues on behalf of members where the member has difficulty contacting support for any reason, or where there appears to be a misunderstanding. We can do no more.

I've been with IDNet for five years plus now, and I'm staying put - I appreciate the level of service and the willingness to engage. Each of us, though, must make their own decision as to whether they are happy with the company.

Rik - in no way am I criticising you or the other volunteers who give freely of their time and expertise to help IDNet customers with issues. My point is this. IDNet could do more to help themselves. When it comes to communicating with their customers they are invariably on the back foot. You have given a very clear explanation of what customers can expect from OOH's support which is what IDNet should have done in  the first place.

Like you, I have been a content IDNet customer for over 5 years. If I was unhappy with the service in the round then I would take my business elsewhere. That said, IDNet should look at the various comments above as coming from 'critical friends' who want to improve IDNet's range of services - both for the benefit of the Company and its customers.

[Rik]

I can tell you that threads like this are read and thought about, if not always replied directly to. Criticism of OOH support here and, I presume, directly, lead to the current arrangement. The results haven't been ideal, and it's being looked at again. IDNet are a company that tend to speak through their actions, rather than words. As a retired PR man, I know this is not ideal.

[Lona]

Regarding OOH support, I am an upfront person and would rather they answered the phone stating that they are only there to take messages and not tell lies like the are support or accounts department.

I really don't like to be conned into thinking I am speaking to a department when all I'm talking to is a call centre worker with a script. It's a total waste of my time making two phonecalls when I was probably speaking to the same person twice.

[sobranie]

I would be more than happy if IDNet would post a voice message on one dedicated contact number.
This number would advise any current problems, areas affected if applicable, estimated down times and any other info. which would obviate the necessity of bombarding the otoh fault lines.
jftr I would terminate my conversation if I was met by any script jockey and would prefer to await normal staff hours where I could discuss my prob with REAL PEOPLE. This I have done in the past and am pleased to report 100% satisfaction.

[mervl]

Am I really the only person on the forum who would be reluctant to pay double or more of my present subscription for the type of service people are asking for on here with a 24 hour troubleshooting service? If the BT and IDNets automated systems don't report (and if they do it comes through on the RSS feed) or you want quicker or additional reporting than they and the forum can provide - you need 24 hour staff (not a call centre) to get the information (let alone do anything about it), and you need to pay them full time rates, as you can't predict when a problem is going to appear. And pay BT whatever they charge for enhanced service too.

I'm sure there are SLA services out there at a cost, if that's what you need (but whether they'll be as accurate as you'd like is another matter).

The whole system is an ad hoc bolt on to an analogue telephone network being used for data transmission for which it was never designed, and it's seriously fault prone. The miracle seems to me to be that it all works as well as it does, and we should be grateful. But it's the fault of us customers IMHO that we want it all on the cheap.

PS But seriously, if it is time for a visit from the Christmas fairy, I'd like her to bring me £1 million please.

[Steve]

No I don't think you are, I want problems fixed in a reasonable time frame,rather than regular reminders that it's broken.

[sobranie]

Quote//But it's the fault of us customers IMHO that we want it all on the cheap.//Unquote.

£24.99 pm does not strike me as particularly cheap IMHO.

[Lance]

Quote//But it's the fault of us customers IMHO that we want it all on the cheap.//Unquote.

£24.99 pm does not strike me as particularly cheap IMHO.

I think the point was, though, that it is cheap compared to what would be required for a full 24/7 support by IDNet staff.

[mervl]

Don't forget the bigger point too, that for what the internet gives access to in terms of  information, entertainment and just everyday utility, to do anything else that keeps you and your family occupied for that length of time (or to get that sort of resource in the "real world") would, I suspect, cost more than £25 per month? And the cost of a fit for purpose C21 FTTP service throughout the country??

[pctech]

If you really want round the clock resilience and for someone to start working on the problem as soon as you report it then you really should be looking at a leased line solution which comes with round the clock monitoring of your individual link, a dedicated phone number you can call if you need to and proactive notification via a phone message or e-mail when maintenance is going to affect your connection along with a financially backed service level agreement that covers downtime due to faults (not planned maintenance)

This is what most medium to large businesses have but they pay upwards of £100 a month for it (a conservative estimate).

I know this as I work in an organisation that uses such connections.

I'm sure if you were interested IDNet would be able to provide a quote for such a connection for you if you so wish.

I agree these outages are happening a little too often but bear in mind IDNet are just as much a customer of BT as you are of IDNet.

[davej99]

I don't care for the term script monkeys. In most organisations almost all 24/7 first level support is provided by call centre staff trained to work from a basic troubleshooting workflow. It is naive to expect anything else for domestic services.

Because IDNET is a small well run enterprise, with comparatively low problem levels, it can utilise high level staff during working hours, but we have to accept the business judgement that this cannot be provided OOH, unless there are contractual agreements to the contrary.

Is there room for improvement? Can OOH support be improved upon by better troubleshooting workflows? Can escalation to high level IDNET tech support be triggerred when call patterns indicate systemic rather than user level problems? Should OOH support monitor the IDNetters forum? Can OOH support workflows include basic status updates and telephone messages to say, "There is a problem. Please do not adjust your set?" And so on.

Of course things can be done to make OOH support both technically effective and financially viable and I am content to let IDNET get on with it.

[sobranie]

Surely my suggestion #160 would answer most OOH service.  I see absolutely no point in ringing OOH to be met with a Q and A session, the majority of which I would have checked beforehand.

[esh]

Here is usually the best place to come for info if there is a fault I find. Usually at the very least there's someone else confirming they have the same issue within minutes, sometimes you don't even have to wait that long. I usually consider phone support for the more serious issues that persist. It works for me, anyway.

[Ardua]

I think, with respect, the point is being missed in this debate. In July, IDNet made this statement which was replicated on a number of BB forums:

     you can contact IDNet Support for technical assistance at any time of the day or night on our usual free phone number 0800 331 7000.

24/7 technical support therefore became an IDNet selling point. As individuals, we all have views on what technical support means. Personally, I took it to mean that the support that I would get at 3AM in the morning would be no less than I could expect at 3PM. Clearly, this is not the case.

I would never choose an ISP on the basis of whether it has 24/7 support. Indeed, I note that the often cited AAISP has limited support hours with the caveat that informal support may be available OOH. My point is that they are being very clear as to what forms part of their BB offer. All I seek is the same clarity from IDNet.

[Tacitus]

Exactly. We try and get a good picture of what is happening before we make contact, and only if the problem is large-scale do we interrupt Simon or Tim's weekend. If we abused that privilege by attempting to intervene for individual members, it would soon disappear.

I agree Rik and I wouldn't wish you to think for a moment that I am in any way criticising the help that you and the team give, it is one of the most valuable resources that iDNet have.  Neither am I particularly critical of iDNet and neither I nor my sister - also on iDNet - have never had any reason to think seriously about moving on.

It's just that when this sort of thing happens there seems to be a general air of confusion about where to go.  Like esh I've come to the conclusion that the WAP version of Netters should be the first port of call since, as you say, it is the place where any broad based problems can be identified and dealt with by the appropriate people. 

I don't really have any problem with the service I received from the call centre when Peter told me it was a problem with an authentication server which is pretty much what it turned out to be.

[Simon]

I'm not sure there a point to be laboured re the OOH call centre.  Do any companies advertise that their call centres are offshore, for example?  It's the standard of support that matters, not where it comes from. 

[Rik]

I don't really have any problem with the service I received from the call centre when Peter told me it was a problem with an authentication server which is pretty much what it turned out to be.

You were lucky, Tac. Interestingly, no-one reported a problem over on ThinkBroadband, which might suggest that people know it's best to come here for info. If that's true, we can be much more effective.

[sobranie]

Quote//Here is usually the best place to come for info if there is a fault I find. Usually at the very least there's someone else confirming they have the same issue within minutes, sometimes you don't even have to wait that long. I usually consider phone support for the more serious issues that persist. It works for me, anyway.//Unquote

Sorry, if I've no internet I'd find it rather difficult to visit these forums.!
I've no dial up modem, I'm a 24/7 carer so getting out entails a fair few problems, I do have a 'phone so WTH can't I just dial a number to find out what's going on or is it beyond the technological expertise of IDNet to place a message on a 'phone line.
Sorry to be showing signs of wear around the edges at this stage folks.