BB connection but no phone connection

[Ardua]

I have considerable sympathy with Lona having been in her position earlier this year and again now. I appreciate Rik's point; however, by design, broadband and phone communications use the same pieces of twisted wire, and a fault on one affects the other. The landline provider might have primacy in resolving line faults; however, IDNet could possibly do more to help its loyal customers by suggesting what additional information could be used to support a fault resolution. My line test last night threw up some concerns but TT could get through to the premises. A further line test this morning from the test socket with a corded phone and the information that I provided about a doubling in my line attenuation (and drop in BB speed) convinced them that I had an external line fault. Sadly, this situation of 'not our problem' will continue as most users will be forced to have FTTC rather than FTTP (as is standard in the most other European countries).

[mervl]

I think we've been here before?

I recall the conclusion was that it's the way BT operate, and it's "forced" upon them by Ofcom regulation (law). It's always seemed to me that telecoms should operate in the same way as energy, where the consumer reports the supply fault directly to the infrastructure operator (the local electricity supply company or Transco) not to the billing supplier. Ofcom will have none of it: broadband and phone are segregated, and if you go the wrong way with your complaint it won't be dealt with by BT. Period, as the Americans say.

If you don't like it then get your telephone and broadband from the same supplier. It's your only option. Otherwise you're caught in the Ofcom loop. If it's a phone fault, then it has to be dealt with as such and not as a broadband fault. How do you tell: well BT will tell you and charge you if you get it wrong in reporting a broadband fault when they send out the "wrong" engineer. So if it isn't a problem with the ISPs equipment or in your own equipment (which the ISP will help you identify), and you don't want to contribute to the BT charity, report it to your landline supplier as a phone fault (where you don't get charged if you're wrong). It's your privilege for keeping the services (which you correctly describe as intimately linked) separate. (If you have to identify or convince yourself you hear noise on the line, I've never found it that difficult).

By the way I've never understood the difference between a loyal customer, and presumably the rest of us (disloyal?) lot.

[Ardua]

I think we've been here before?

I recall the conclusion was that it's the way BT operate, and it's "forced" upon them by Ofcom regulation (law). It's always seemed to me that telecoms should operate in the same way as energy, where the consumer reports the supply fault directly to the infrastructure operator (the local electricity supply company or Transco) not to the billing supplier. Ofcom will have none of it: broadband and phone are segregated, and if you go the wrong way with your complaint it won't be dealt with by BT. Period, as the Americans say.

If you don't like it then get your telephone and broadband from the same supplier. It's your only option. Otherwise you're caught in the Ofcom loop. If it's a phone fault, then it has to be dealt with as such and not as a broadband fault. How do you tell: well BT will tell you and charge you if you get it wrong in reporting a broadband fault when they send out the "wrong" engineer. So if it isn't a problem with the ISPs equipment or in your own equipment (which the ISP will help you identify), and you don't want to contribute to the BT charity, report it to your landline supplier as a phone fault (where you don't get charged if you're wrong). It's your privilege for keeping the services (which you correctly describe as intimately linked) separate. (If you have to identify or convince yourself you hear noise on the line, I've never found it that difficult).

By the way I've never understood the difference between a loyal customer, and presumably the rest of us (disloyal?) lot.

Mervl - I think that any company would know who their loyal customers are - but each to his own. My point is that notwithstanding what the great God OFCOM states, Lona has a problem that may or may not be related to her change of ADSL service. It is one thing to say 'it is not an issue for your Broadband supplier' and another to say 'it is not an issue for your Broadband supplier but we would suggest that you approach your phone supplier and make the following points based on our experience of faults of this nature'. The first response may be OFCOM and contractually compliant but the second is more helpful to a customer who is clearly struggling to resolve a problem not of her making. Assistance costs nothing and may well bring commercial rewards, and customer loyalty.

[pctech]

Telecoms is a bit more complex than the energy market because certainly in the case of broadband a virtual circuit is formed between the Customer Premises Equipment (your router) and your ISP's edge routers.

I do think its a little bizarre that BT Wholesake are prevented from acting on a tip off from IDNet such as 'the voice side of customer's line has gone down following some broadband upgrade work you did, could you have a look?'

[Lona]

Well, what a day I've had today.

First of all, received an email from Idnet to say that my new connection is complete.

15 minutes later my phoneline suddenly sprang back into life so I phoned BT and said the problem had been resolved and to cancel the engineer visit for Thursday.

15 minutes later my BB and phoneline went down so first thing I did was phone Idnet as thinking I had no BB they could do something about it as BB had been working the whole time my phone was out of action but Brian said that if my phone was dead I would have to phone BT. I was cut off while on the phone to Brian but he didn't bother phoning me back (and yes I had given him my number) to hear the whole story.

I then phoned BT again and told them I had no phone or BB and they said the line was testing OK and to phone my ISP. I told them I had already done that so they said they would have to send an engineer but as I had cancelled the first visit I would have to wait until Saturday.

15 minutes later my phone sprang into life but I still had no BB so phoned Idnet again but an answering machine said I could not be put through and to phone again later.  Three times I tried but got the same message.  After about an hour it was 6 o'clock by this time I eventually got through to a young girl who said support would call me within the hour.  After half an hour I phoned again and got the same girl who assured me I definitely would get a callback.  I'm still waiting...............

At 8.15pm my BB suddenly became active so thanks for nothing Idnet.

I have been advised to change my phone company to my Isp, well it certainly won't be Idnet with the kind of custumer service I have experienced today.  There is nothing to choose between BT or Idnet and I am thoroughly disgusted with the lot of them.

I will be moving somewhere else when I can find a company with better customer service.

[Lance]

Good luck.

[mervl]

I do symphasise Lorna, because we've all been there.

Two golden rules I'd say are 1. never mention broadband when dealing with a phone line fault to your separate phone line provider, as BT will always use it to try to get themselves off the hook (no pun intended), always talk about a noisy phone, inaudible calls or no dial tone; and 2. phone line faults tend to be intermittent so be very reluctant to cancel a call-out before a decent interval to prove the fault isn't going to recur (provided it's been reported as a phone fault not a broadband one), get it checked, be prepared to nag 'em to do it properly i.e. check everything, if you need to (asking them to explain is a good start), and hope and pray you get a decent engineer because some of them can be lazy. If for instance you think work on your line at the exchange is the problem, explain why and if they haven't already checked then ask them politely to do so, and to ring and let you know what they've done. I think they now get customer care training so it ought to ring a bell!

[pctech]

Very definitely sounds like a bit of kit at the exchange is on its last legs.

I take it you ensured that on each contact you explictly left your mobile number with them as strange as it maybe they could have tried calling the defective line.

I would definitely concur that getting your broadbamd and phone from the same company helps a great deal in these situations as they have total control, it certainly helped me recently when I requested that my socket be replaced with an NTE5 one (which you'll have already anyway)

Bear in mind though that unless you go for a totally unbundled solution such as TalkTalk (off the top of my head, there are others of course) BT is still involved with the exchange equipment and that even if you do use LLU the provider may have to call on BT Openreach if they think there is a problem with the copper loop between the exchange and your home.

[Lona]

I'm stuck with BT for a year as I paid my rental for a year to save money.

BT had my mobile phone number and yes my phone did ring out but I had just a loud noise when I tried to answer it, then when the phone became live again my BB cut off.

Talking to somebody in India didn't help as they couldn't understand me or me them and Idnet was no help either.

[Gary]

I'm stuck with BT for a year as I paid my rental for a year to save money.

Talking to somebody in India didn't help as they couldn't understand me or me them and Idnet was no help either.

Idnet were very helpful with me, when changing over to ADSL 2+ my BB went on and off a few times, It came back up fine with a good speed, as I said Brian called in the exchange crew because initially there was no phone line, now that was done in one call, its still ironic that BT checked the line at 7:30am the next day when he had told BT not to, but that's still a very good service. Sometimes its the way you approach a problem and the staff that help get things sorted , also I believe out of hours do not do callbacks, but I may be wrong, I am sure this was discussed a while back when there was a outage.

[Rik]

The OOH service should not be promising call backs.

[Lance]

But I it was before 6:30 that is normal support time isn't it?

[Steve]

That's the advertised weekly hour in the FAQ's (6pm Friday)

[Lance]

I thought so. Thanks Steve.

[peasblossom]

I would like to think that in an ideal world each operator would be able to deal with their own kit and have the wherewithal to offer cable too (!!). Since we're not in that happy place, reporting a fault as mervl suggests is the best alternative to vote for. If we could, that is.

I do appreciate Lona's frustration but also feel that IDNet have their hands tied behind their backs because of these regulations so they cannot do more.

[Lona]

Brian called in the exchange crew because initially there was no phone line, now that was done in one call

Good for you Gary, Brian didn't afford me the same service, he told me I would have to phone BT myself even although there was no BB connection.

Brian called me this morning and we agreed to disagree as to who's responsibility it was to get things working.  There was no apology for not phoning me back when we were disconnected.  He also couldn't explain the 3 messages telling me to call back later or the OOH staff telling me that there was somebody at support and that I would receive a callback.  Poor customer service similar to BT so it's swings and roundabouts as far I am concerned. I would suggest that Idnet retrain their OOH staff.

[cavillas]

I believe their OOH staff are not employed by Idnet so they have little control over them other than giving their way of working to the ooh suppliers.  I also think Idnet may be re-evaluating their ooh connections.

[Lance]

Good for you Gary, Brian didn't afford me the same service, he told me I would have to phone BT myself even although there was no BB connection.

The difference is Gary's phone line is also with IDNet.

[Rik]

I believe their OOH staff are not employed by Idnet so they have little control over them other than giving their way of working to the ooh suppliers.  I also think Idnet may be re-evaluating their ooh connections.

You would be right, Alf.

[Ardua]

Just to close out my input to this thread. Having never used TalkTalk for telephone fault resolution before I confess that I was slightly worried. This morning I rang them (India) for an update; a well-spoken young man candidly admitted that the person that I spoke to yesterday had referred my fault to the wrong department in BT. He said that he had rectified the mistake and I could expect a resolution well within the SLA 72 hours. Two hours later - after 30 minutes of a flashing DSL light - everything stabilised and I checked my router log. Downstream attenuation had fallen by 50% and speed was back up to 17Mbps. A quiet line test on the phone was, well, 'quiet'. I did speak to one of the FTTC guys working in my street this afternoon, and he said that the exchange was pretty chaotic as they try to fit in the new FTTC equipment. Lots of complaints about failed lines.

I can well see some advantages in having a 'one-stop' re-seller for BB and phone. That said, how do I get my phone fixed if the ISP's support team is in OOH's mode. At least, I was able to phone TalkTalk when I noticed that I had a line fault and  I got an immediate line test and response even though it was outside normal hours. They also seemed very interested in my 100% increase in downstream attenuation as a further indication of a possible fault outwith the premises.

[sobranie]

I believe their OOH staff are not employed by Idnet so they have little control over them other than giving their way of working to the ooh suppliers.  I also think Idnet may be re-evaluating their ooh connections.

To put it another way, IDNet do not have an OOH support do they?   Maybe they are a bunch of script jockeys based in India somewhere for all we know!
The OOH support was heralded with the approriate fan fares etc and, whilst I haven't availed myself of their 'Expertise'   I find myself awaiting the long Christmas period (sans day staff) with more than a little trepidation.

[Simon]

To put it another way, IDNet do not have an OOH support do they?   Maybe they are a bunch of script jockeys based in India somewhere for all we know!

The OOH support service is UK based.

[sobranie]

The OOH support service is UK based.

OK, fair enough but if they're not employed by IDNet what is the ******* point?     Talk about a Sop to Cerberus from IDNet Towers.

[Lona]

All I can add to that is that the OOH support are not doing Idnet's reputation any favours.

[pctech]

You would be right, Alf.

I do find it a little concerning when reputable companies put parts of their customer service function in the hands of an outsourcer as it may prove counter productive to the original intention of improving perceived service because:

The agents may have limited knowledge of the company's product and dependent technologies or even the market segment.
An agent working for the outsourcer but handling several contracts may have less concern than an employee of the customer company because they have no stake in it or may not feel any loyalty to it, I've never worked for an outsourcer but when dealing with certain companies that do outsource the customer contact I've sometimes got the feeling that the person answering the phone couldn't care what my issue was or whether I reamined a customer or not.

My personal opinion is if you can't staff a service with your own staff then don't offer it as you have limited control over a third party whose actions could do very severe damage to a reputation you've worked hard to build and maintain.