Should I get an Engineer out?

[Jimbo]

Evening all,

Firstly just like to say I hope you are all well.  I haven't posted in awhile due to finishing my final year at University and also starting work full-time.  So I've been a bit busy. 

However, back to pick your brains about my broadband situation.

I have been connected to my master socket for a good month or so now, removed the ring wire from my extensions and fitted the NTE5 faceplate.  However, my connection is still very hit and miss.

It appears that the weather affects it the most.  Rain or dull days causes really slow sync speeds and downloads sometimes under 20kbps; perhaps the ADSL is depressed? Lol.  (I am on the 8Mb Max package).  Even though disconnections have now been nearly eliminated thanks to the master socket, the speeds are still quite poor.  If the weather is sunny and I'm lucky I can download happily at +120Kbps! 

However, this is perhaps only once or twice a month.

Tonight, the house phone (Digital) has had really bad interferance on it and background noise.  At first I put it down to my wireless router being near the base-station, however, it's been there for awhile and been fine.

Would noise on the phoneline and my constant fluctuating ADSL be linked?  Could infact the line into the house be the problem? And therefore, would you call an engineer out?

I can't understand how I can sync somedays at nearly 3mb then others it's less than 1mb.  And one day download at quite resonable speeds and the next I can't even load webpages because it's so slow.

If you think I should call out an engineer, how do I go about doing this?  Is there anything I should point out to him/her or get them to check?  I don't just want the usual "well it looks ok at the moment" reply after plugging in something for 30 seconds.

Many Thanks,
James

[DorsetBoy]

It sounds as if you have a noise problem with your line as the synch should be pretty much constant.

First thing to do is go to your test socket,plug in a phone (preferably a corded type),dial 17070 then option 2 and listen to your line.There should be no noises,clicks crackles pops etc,take some time to make sure it is clear. If you hear noises that is a BT fault.
If it is clear go to your internal phone sockets and repeat the test,if you now have noise your internal wiring is at fault.

Read up in Riks guides at the top if the forum,you do not want to call BT yet,they are expensive if they don't find anything!

[Jimbo]

It sounds as if you have a noise problem with your line as the synch should be pretty much constant.

First thing to do is go to your test socket,plug in a phone (preferably a corded type),dial 17070 then option 2 and listen to your line.There should be no noises,clicks crackles pops etc,take some time to make sure it is clear. If you hear noises that is a BT fault.
If it is clear go to your internal phone sockets and repeat the test,if you now have noise your internal wiring is at fault.

Read up in Riks guides at the top if the forum,you do not want to call BT yet,they are expensive if they don't find anything!

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.   Unfortunately, I have no corded phones in the house.  I will try it with the digital one and see what I find.  I know it's probably not the best way to test it, but better than nothing?

I shall post back with my findings.

Cheers.

[Jimbo]

Ok just tried it out.

With just the phone going into the "PHONE" connection of the NTE5 faceplate, I got quite faint fuzz and background static.  No pops or clicks.

Then I thought, "hmmm wonder if I can plug in my "ADSL" too.  So plugged that back in and waited till it connected.  Tried the number again and this time the background static was much more noticeable.  Hard to describe, it was just fuzzy constantly.  Still did not hear any clicks or crackles, but it was like if you don't tune your radio into a station and you just get noise.  Like that constant "chhhhhhhhuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr".

What do we think then?  Sound bad?  How clear should it be?

[Supanova]

hmm i know the noise you mean, i had some trouble like that and it turned out to be a juctionbox to the phonelines very near to the main socket. It had just got old.

As wires get older their resistance increases, this can lead to unwanted noise. Broadband signals have a very small amplitude so this can (as was my case) cause it to FUBAR a little as the computer then has to fanny around trying to get information that was lost.

Have a hunt around for any old juction boxes or anything, open them up if you find any, and check all the connections. If its very old, consider replacing it.

[Jimbo]

hmm i know the noise you mean, i had some trouble like that and it turned out to be a juctionbox to the phonelines very near to the main socket. It had just got old.

As wires get older their resistance increases, this can lead to unwanted noise. Broadband signals have a very small amplitude so this can (as was my case) cause it to FUBAR a little as the computer then has to fanny around trying to get information that was lost.

Have a hunt around for any old juction boxes or anything, open them up if you find any, and check all the connections. If its very old, consider replacing it.

Thanks.

I don't know if that would be the case for me, I'll ask my dad see what he thinks.  The wiring in the house is quite new (all new wiring) as it was completely gutted and re-done.  However, the outside line has never been tested or replaced. 

Hmmmmmmmmmm!!

What exactly does the BT engineer test?

Cheers.

[Jimbo]

Well I ran a speedtest from,

http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/

and got,

Download Speed: 967 kbps (120.9 KB/sec )   Upload Speed: 319 kbps (39.9 KB/sec )

Router Stats:

Upstream   448000
Downstream   1760000

Downstream   
SNR Margin   12.0 dB
Line Attenuation   54.5 dB
CRC Errors   194

I couldn't get the BT one to work. 

Does that seem ok?

[Rik]

Your sync speed is low for that attenuation. If weather, particularly wet weather, is affecting your connection, it could indicate a wet joint somewhere on the line. If you're reasonably certain that your internal wiring is OK, then it's worth raising with support. They can test the line, and arrange for BT to carry out checks.

However, as Supanova says, wiring does age, and I had a similar experience to him. One night I shut down my machine with a working connection, and the next morning I had no connection. Something had just gone over the tolerance for ADSL within my internal wiring. It cost me £60 for a BT engineer to fix it, but that was in the days when they were reasonable, nowadays you would have to add £100 or more to the price.

[Jimbo]

Your sync speed is low for that attenuation. If weather, particularly wet weather, is affecting your connection, it could indicate a wet joint somewhere on the line. If you're reasonably certain that your internal wiring is OK, then it's worth raising with support. They can test the line, and arrange for BT to carry out checks.

However, as Supanova says, wiring does age, and I had a similar experience to him. One night I shut down my machine with a working connection, and the next morning I had no connection. Something had just gone over the tolerance for ADSL within my internal wiring. It cost me £60 for a BT engineer to fix it, but that was in the days when they were reasonable, nowadays you would have to add £100 or more to the price.

Ok thanks mate.

I think I'll wait till pay-day then raise a call with support. 

Cheers!

[Jimbo]

Hi guys.

Ok, so payday on Monday so I thought whilst waiting I'd record my Router stats over a 7 day period and also note my download/upload speeds.  The results are below so I would appreciate someone casting a knowledgable eye over them for me please. 


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/j_firegod/Computer/Stats-1.jpg


As you can see, the rainy/wet days are bad and then as the days progress the speed starts to pickup.  On the 22nd June entry, I was enjoying a much quicker broadband experience, and it's on day's like that one that I feel like I should do nothing about my speeds and I usually hope it will just remain at that speed or perhaps get even quicker.  But today (the day after) just look at the abysmal speed!!!  I've went from 182 KB/sec download to 56 KB/sec... I'm nearly as slow as my upload speed.   

The speedtests were all done at the same site:-
http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/

I plan to send these stats when I log the call with Support, but just thought I'd share them with you all.  For an 8Mb package, I seem to be a bit on the slow side.  Would you agree?

I know the speed is there, it just appears that something out of my control is holding it back.  Like I say, if one day I can get nearly 200 KB/sec download (on a line BT say 512 is the most) and then it suddenly falls over, is the line to blame?  I would love to just be able to have that 180 KB/sec constantly instead of having a different speed every day. 

Cheers all. 

[Rik]

Hi Jimbo

When I first read your post, I am sure your graph and speed test results displayed in the post. Now, I have a link to the graph and to the speed test site. Did you edit something?

Anyway, I use the same site for speed testing and append my results. As you'll see, they form a fairly tight cluster: I'm getting as much out of my line as is there to be got, and the results are consistent.

You, otoh, have wildy fluctuating sync speeds and, with them, big swings in noise margin. Your line should try to connect at the highest speed possible for a target noise margin of 6db, unless that has been altered - either at your request, or because BT's line management software feels the need to stabilise your line. You also re-sync frequently, is that happening because the line is dropping, or are you forcing the re-sync?



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[Jimbo]

Hi Jimbo

When I first read your post, I am sure your graph and speed test results displayed in the post. Now, I have a link to the graph and to the speed test site. Did you edit something?

Anyway, I use the same site for speed testing and append my results. As you'll see, they form a fairly tight cluster: I'm getting as much out of my line as is there to be got, and the results are consistent.

You, otoh, have wildy fluctuating sync speeds and, with them, big swings in noise margin. Your line should try to connect at the highest speed possible for a target noise margin of 6db, unless that has been altered - either at your request, or because BT's line management software feels the need to stabilise your line. You also re-sync frequently, is that happening because the line is dropping, or are you forcing the re-sync?

Hey mate,

Yeah I edited the post because the forum re-sized the image and chopped a bit off the end, so I changed it to a link for the entire image. 

Thanks for posting your results, yours are much more consistent... mine are all over the shop!  With regards to the noise margin I personally have never requested it to be different, so perhaps it has been done automatically?

Again, the re-sync is nothing to do with me.  I have restarted once this week as I changed some settings.  However I haven't noticed the line dropping whilst using the PC.  It may be doing it whilst I'm at work during the week or perhaps on a night when I'm asleep.  I now have the router in the master socket, so before I could quickly check in my room now I would have to run to the other end of the house.

So no, I'm not forcing it to re-sync mate.  So what do you think, defo a line problem?

Thanks.

[Rik]

From the look of it, Jimbo, it could well be your internal wiring - but that doesn't explain the high noise margins you're seeing. Is your master an NTE5? If so, it would be worth removing the faceplate and plugging the router into the test socket too see what happens. If that produces a significant change, the noise pickup is within your internal wiring, which would definitely mean a hefty bill from BT if an engineer comes out.

Have you done the ring wire trick?

[Jimbo]

From the look of it, Jimbo, it could well be your internal wiring - but that doesn't explain the high noise margins you're seeing. Is your master an NTE5? If so, it would be worth removing the faceplate and plugging the router into the test socket too see what happens. If that produces a significant change, the noise pickup is within your internal wiring, which would definitely mean a hefty bill from BT if an engineer comes out.

Have you done the ring wire trick?

Hey mate,

Yeah the master socket is an NTE5, and I've replaced the bottom half with the faceplate from ADSL Nation.  Should I remove that and plug direct into the test socket?  (I'll lose the phones if I do that though won't I?)

Also, I have done the ring wire removal.  Remember, you used one of my photo's in your "Guide".   

Cheers!

[Rik]

Yeah the master socket is an NTE5, and I've replaced the bottom half with the faceplate from ADSL Nation.  Should I remove that and plug direct into the test socket?  (I'll lose the phones if I do that though won't I?)

You will, but you'll also establish if there is an issue with your wiring. If there is, when you move to the test socket, you should see a significant change to the sync speed, or the noise margin, or both. If it stays at pretty much the same level, it suggests that any fault is external.

Also, I have done the ring wire removal.  Remember, you used one of my photo's in your "Guide".   

Of course.  Sorry, mate, that was a few thousand posts and a lifetime ago. 

[Jimbo]

Of course.  Sorry, mate, that was a few thousand posts and a lifetime ago. 

Lol that's ok mate.   I'll go try the test socket, and report back when I can.

Cheers Rik!

[Rik]

Good luck, let us know what happens.

[Jimbo]

Ok, initial stats...

Downstream --- 2144000

Downstream   
SNR Margin --- 8.5 dB   
Line Attenuation --- 55.0 dB    
CRC Errors --- 8    
Latency --- Interleave    


EDIT

And the speed... 59KB/sec

I guess that'll take a few days to speed back up.

[Jimbo]

Hi.

Right, it has to be the line now.  After leaving it in the test socket yesterday, over night and now this morning my stats have changed again (for the worse).  I have made changes to the above post in RED and addded them in here.  (That is what they are now, compared to yesterday).

I think this rules out the internal wiring then. 

Downstream --- 2144000 1024000

Downstream   
SNR Margin --- 8.5 dB 17.0 dB  
Line Attenuation --- 55.0 dB 56.0 dB
CRC Errors --- 8 437
Latency --- Interleave   

And the speed... 59KB/sec 60.5KB/sec

[Rik]

I see no red. Now I do - editing while I am posting is cheating.

If things are still bad at the test socket, it has to be an external issue. Time to contact support. Get a BT speed test done before you do, and give them as much data as you can, it all helps to narrow the search.

Good luck.

Afterthought: Can you borrow another router? I've just noticed that, with your red stats, your sync speed has halved but your noise margin has doubled. As it's above BT's official 'highest' level of 15db, I just wonder whether the router is not negotiating well with the DSLAM.

[Jimbo]

I see no red.

If things are still bad at the test socket, it has to be an external issue. Time to contact support. Get a BT speed test done before you do, and give them as much data as you can, it all helps to narrow the search.

Good luck.

Nice one Rik, thanks for all the help everyone.

Just added the red now. 

Thanks!

[Rik]

See my afterthought - it would be worth ruling out the possibility of a router problem if you can.

[Jimbo]

See my afterthought - it would be worth ruling out the possibility of a router problem if you can.

Hmm interesting.  I don't have another Router handy, but the one I use (incase it helps) is quite an expensive one.

It's a Billion BiPAC 7402VGP Wireless Router, which cost me over £100. 

I've checked the firmware is up-to-date and also set some settings back to Auto.  One of these was an option called "Coding Gain" (I don't know if you know what this does).  But I read if you change it from auto to the max value of 7 it helps to sync at much higher speeds, but gives more errors.  I used to run it at this max value, but have since tried it back at auto to see if that helps matters... which it hasn't. lol. 
I also have lots of values for "Tx Attenuation".  Again, I have left this at the default value as I heard it should only be increased to help when you are closer to an exchange but I am not close, so left it at the value of DMT_0dB.
Also, I changed the "Profile Type" from Main to BT, but to me that would make more sense as I'm with BT.  I hope that's what it means! 

So, yeah, bit of a rambling there but no I don't have another Router.  Should I perhaps go and buy a cheap one and see what happens?  The reason I bought the Billion Router was because when I asked on another forum that I thought I had a poor line, they said that by investing in a quality Router it should work better with the poor line stats and stop all my disconnections, which it has. 

Cheers.

[Jimbo]

Lol also just tried to run the speedtest from BT and got the following message:-

The IP address discovered on the network associated with your telephone number:xxxx, did not match the one we have logged from this browser/connection. Please check your telephone number and try again. If problem persists please contact your CP.

Erm... what?

[Rik]

Hi Jimbo

I used to use a Dryatek Vigor 2600+ before Max. One of the more expensive routers, it was great on fixed rate, but didn't handle Max at all well. I moved to the humble Netgear DG834 and it's done a sterling job. Pre-Max, it was possible to give router recommendations with confidence, nowadays the best results seem to come from matching the router chipset to the DSLAM.

If you look at DSL Depot, you can pick up a Speedtouch 546 for £13, if you want wireless, they have the 585 for £17 and the Netgear DG834G for £20. It would be cheaper to eliminate the router as an issue than to pay BT to tell you that's the problem, and I like to have a spare in the cupboard anyway (I'm just the same with backups ).