Back to IDNET, but something's gone wrong...?

[RCS2K4]

Hey all,

I'm back on IDNET again (migrated from Sly's Sky's LLU). Connection with them was fast - Exchange sync was 24688 KB/Sec Down, and 1875 KB/Sec Up (Act thruput was 21MB/Sec or so), but left because of some cr*ppy internet ToS surrounding usage. Anyway, back on IDNET today, and with one thing and another the router had to re-boot 3-4 times on first log-in and the sync speed has nose dive (Will this recover during the training period?). Some line stats are also very odd:

Sync speed: 2114 KB/Sec Down, 366 KB/Sec Up
Line Attenuation: 120 Down, 48 Up (WTF?)
SnR Margin: 153 Down, 103 Up (Again, WTF?)

Those line stats are lot higer than my Sky Router reported for this same line. Line attenuation down was 4.7, up was about 6.8. SNR margin was 7 down, 9 up.

Should I be concerned?

(Router is a TP-Link TD-W8960N)

[Lance]

Welcome back!

Have you got a spare router? Those are some seriously odd figures and with those I wouldn't expect you to have any sort of connection. Obviously the move back from LLU to a BT line is a physical change at the exchange so its possible something has gone wrong.

[RCS2K4]

Erm, I have a Netgear DGND3300 v2 but it's at mums house so I could go fetch it later? With a supposed attenuation of 120 then I would also suspect it shouldnt connect.

Maybe the routers just reporting them wrong - Thats a possibility. It says max line speed attainable is 23716 tho, so that looks promising. I'll get a screenshot, as speeds are all over the place (It's sync at 15MB or so now)...

[RCS2K4]

Router Stats Screen:

[RCS2K4]

It's fluctuating up and down like a yo-yo. Connected now at 19 MB... :-) I guess it's a non-issue now...

[Rik]

Is that d/s attenuation still 120db?

[RCS2K4]

Yeah, it is...?

[mk1]

Must have extended your connection to my Exchange Lol. Welcome to nice slow Internet.!!!

[mk1]

I thought 60db was the max you can get on adsl2+?

[RCS2K4]

I thought 60db was the max you can get on adsl2+?

It is, and at 60db you'll be getting 1-2 MB only. I think the routers a little bit iffy, as there's no way the line attenuation is actually 120 - I have a connection, and the telephone exchange is barely 100-150 yards away (hence the low attenuation I got with Sky). I'm tempted to just leave it and let the line training complete?

[Steve]

Any chance it's 12 and not 120?

[MisterW]

Is that d/s attenuation still 120db?

Yeah, it is...?

No it isn't!
Look carefully , the TP link reports attenuation and SNR in units of 0.1db

Any chance it's 12 and not 120?

Exactly.
The SNR is a bit high at 15db though, tends to indicate some noise on the line.
Have you got any extensions and is the ring wire connected ?

[RCS2K4]

  Oops, I had not noticed that MisterW - Thanks! (+1 Karma). Sync rate's held currently at 19MB, and SNR has fallen to 135, or 13.5 in TP-Links world. That should keep on falling???

I don't have any extensions, and the router's plugged straight into the microfilter / telephone socket. I have a Sky Hd box and a Landline phone plugged into the telephone socket of the same microfilter, but they never gave any issues on Sky...?

I had read reports about sky HD boxes adding a lot of noise tho, is this true and is it best to just disconnect it?

[Rik]

Yes, unless you have multi-room, don't let the devil's spawn near your phone line.

[MisterW]

I've seen a TPLink before so I knew about the 0.1db as soon as I saw your first post of the stats.
Since you've just been connected I suspect your line is stabilising and will be a bit erratic for a day or two until it finds the best balance between speed and SNR. You're right about Sky Boxes though, sometimes double-filtering, by cascading one microfilter off another, can improve matters. 

[RCS2K4]

Noted, I just yanked the Sky HD box from the phoneline and the line disconnected. It re-established link and SnR fell to 5.1 - How the hell...

Sync has increased to 20MB too, but it now says the max attainable speed is "only" 21136. That had better go up, as I got 24 MB sync with Sky and expect the same here...!

I've had a total of 6-8 disconnects today alone, so is this buggering up the training profile??? Most were router re-sets when it was saving IDNET credentials, and then a firmware upgrade, and then again just now when I yanked the Sky Box... Exchange prolly can't tell the difference tho?

[Glenn]

BT profiles the line, so you may not get the same d/l speed.

http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,1904.msg31527.html#msg31527

[Steve]

An increase in sync with a corresponding reduction in margin is good news, an increase in margin with the same sync means that noise or interference has reduced. However a reducing margin with the same sync means noise or interference is increasing as is a reduction in sync whatever the margin ( usually increased) is down to noise or interference.

[RCS2K4]

Ahhhh, I see - Thanks both :-) I'm optimistic and aiming to be profiled into that 23840+ banding. My router is starting to stabalise I think - SnR is holding steady, speed is the same. The router is reporting again under the "Attainable Rate (Kbps)" that a speed of 24776 is being targeted after it fell for a bit when I pullled the HD box.

Now i'll just wait a few days?

[RCS2K4]

Strike that optimisim for a 24MB sync, my line is all over the place. Sync has fallen back to just over 11MB (Thruput is just under 2MB), and SnR has risen to 16???

Honestly, you leave it for 4 hours with no intervention and it gets worse. This isn't how I remember my 5+ years of service from IDNET just under a year ago :-/



Edit: Added speed test

[Lance]

Unfortunately the line connection and sync is down to BT with no involvement from IDNet.

[RCS2K4]

Hmm, I rang IDNET about the slow thruput Vs. sync and they said I just need to leave it connected for the next 3 days without touching it. It may then start to speed up (may?).

I don't get why BT's system needs to be so stupidly cautious? On Be and Sky's LLU, it sets a speed right away and then me or the ISP can increase it even further if the line's stable. She said it could take 10 days to 2 weeks for that to get anywhere near the speeds I got on this line from Sky - And ultimately may not actually reach the speeds I got on sky due to profile banding...

[Rik]

Welcome to the world of BT.

[Steve]

You can find your current IP profile by perfoming the full BT speedtest.The profile tends to fall quickly on an unstable line but sadly takes days to recover.

[psp83]

You can find your current IP profile by perfoming the full BT speedtest.The profile tends to fall quickly on an unstable line but sadly takes days to recover.

That depends, if you have a big increase (> 1000) it recovers quite fast... and isn't your profile 88% of your sync now on 21cn products?

[Steve]

I would agree Paul that big upward differences between IP profile and sync occur relatively quickly and then slow as the sync is approached.

[RCS2K4]

I'm only 3 days in, and I appreciate its late but this is starting to bug me. Here I am logged in via my phone because the ADSL link has been down for about an hour and a half now. I re-started the router a few times, nothing. Tried another router and also nothing. Then thought to check the dial tone on the landline. Can you guess what the result of that was too :-/

Line faults, pffffft what a joke - it appears dead :-(

Router logs filling up with loads of error lines:
User - Critical - Kernel: xDSL G994 Training
User - Critical - Kernel: ADSL link down
(repeat)

I will check again in the morning, but anyone had this happpen before??? :-/

[psp83]

I'm only 3 days in, and I appreciate its late but this is starting to bug me. Here I am logged in via my phone because the ADSL link has been down for about an hour and a half now. I re-started the router a few times, nothing. Tried another router and also nothing. Then thought to check the dial tone on the landline. Can you guess what the result of that was too :-/

Line faults, pffffft what a joke - it appears dead :-(

Router logs filling up with loads of error lines:
User - Critical - Kernel: xDSL G994 Training
User - Critical - Kernel: ADSL link down
(repeat)

I will check again in the morning, but anyone had this happpen before??? :-/

Phone support first thing in the morning, they will get it sorted.

[RCS2K4]

Apparently not. I don't thnk im getting any broadband over this weekend (Line's still down, support are "investigating")... :-/

[psp83]

Apparently not. I don't thnk im getting any broadband over this weekend (Line's still down, support are "investigating")... :-/

Which most likely means its in the hands of BT.. hopefully something comes back as faulty or you will be going around in circles 

I know what's it like to be without a connection over the weekend, when I got upgraded to the 80/20 FTTC trials, my modem failed to reconnect when BT pushed the button on a friday morning. Took over 4 days to get an engineer here to replace the faulty modem they supplied 

[pctech]

You maybe lucky, if multiple people from different ISPs report a problem on your exchange they may send an engineer to have a look over the weekend but if its just you it won't be fixed till next week.

[RCS2K4]

It's been nearly a week since I last posted, and after a period of stability from late Saturday to Tuesday, the speed has fallen significantly from Tuesday onwards.

Over the weekend, a downstream sync of 23MB was held, upstream was approx 0.7MB – The SNR was 2.5. I had good throughput of approx 21MB on speed test sites.

Today, it's back to a downstream sync of just 13MB (and has been since Tuesday), upstream is 2.4MB (AnnexM FTW) – The SNR is 14.3. The current throughput is 10.5-11MB.

Why is my sync speed up and down like a yoyo, and seemingly stuck at 13MB now? Also, is turning on AnnexM one of the main causes - I know you loose a little download speed by using it, but it's nearly cut it in half?

[psp83]

You may had alot of noise on the line and the equipment at the exchange put your SNR at 15..

Mine kept being put to 15 when I was on ADSL2, it's a pain in the arse.

Find out if you got anything that create noise on the line, sockets, extensions, sky, running phone cables parallel with power cables (they should cross)

Another way around it is, upgrade to FTTC if its in your area 

[RCS2K4]

Mine kept being put to 15 when I was on ADSL2, it's a pain in the arse.

Interesting, and based on your speed test footer you clearly don't have a bad line and must be pretty close to the exchange. (Like I am, attenuation roughly equates to line length right? That's currently 11.5Db for me, and always has been.)

Find out if you got anything that create noise on the line, sockets, extensions, sky, running phone cables parallel with power cables (they should cross).

Meh, I've checked that to death. I don't have any extension sockets or trailing phone cables. I've disconnected the SkyHD box from the line a week ago just to remove any possible issues with that. Everything is set-up the same as it was when I was on Sky's Broadband equipment wise, and in the same places. It held a steady 24MB sync for a year without faltering...

Another way around it is, upgrade to FTTC if its in your area 

See, it's been installed. I've got fibre cabinets at each end of the street that they installed about 6 months ago, and they also dug up the road to lay new fibre down. I actually asked some Openreach people what they were doing at the time. Their answer was installing fibre broadband to George St. (sweet!).

However, even 6 months later BT's website says my address is not in a fibre covered area, but my neighbours house a few doors down does have it, as they took that service out some 2 months ago and it's fast (They were getting 36-37MB off it, god knows how fast it is now the speeds got a free upgrade)... :-/

[psp83]

Interesting, and based on your speed test footer you clearly don't have a bad line and must be pretty close to the exchange. (Like I am, attenuation roughly equates to line length right? That's currently 11.5Db for me, and always has been.)

I had a bad line when I was on ADSL2, 36 attenuation & 15 SNR, I could only get 6mb down and 1mb up. My line went through 2 PCP's then to the exchange.

I'm now on FTTC and had issues with the order at first because of my line going through 2 PCP's, they kept putting the order on the last PCP and took 3 attempts to get FTTC installed as they had to re-route my line.

The FTTC cab is about 500m away from the house.

Meh, I've checked that to death. I don't have any extension sockets or trailing phone cables. I've disconnected the SkyHD box from the line a week ago just to remove any possible issues with that. Everything is set-up the same as it was when I was on Sky's Broadband equipment wise, and in the same places. It held a steady 24MB sync for a year without faltering...

Is your line underground or above? mine goes near a street light and this can cause noise issues.

See, it's been installed. I've got fibre cabinets at each end of the street that they installed about 6 months ago, and they also dug up the road to lay new fibre down. I actually asked some Openreach people what they were doing at the time. Their answer was installing fibre broadband to George St. (sweet!).

However, even 6 months later BT's website says my address is not in a fibre covered area, but my neighbours house a few doors down does have it, as they took that service out some 2 months ago and it's fast (They were getting 36-37MB off it, god knows how fast it is now the speeds got a free upgrade)... :-/

It depends what PCP you are connected to and if its been FTTC enabled yet. The phone pole outside my house is fed by 2 PCP's, BTO told me I was lucky as my line goes to the one that is FTTC enabled as the other one is not going to be enabled for a while.

[RCS2K4]

My phoneline is underground. However I've now royally had enough and am going back to Sly's LLU

I get home from work after leaving the router another day and speeds have fallen even lower - again. Furthermore, the AnnexM I that costs extra, for whatever reason the router's no longer picking it up now (based on that upload speed - it's pathetic). The current state of play is irritating on a line so close to the bloody exchange:



IDNET's reply to my email has also given me the distinct impression that they won't be looking at it:
"BT's set the SNR at the exchange to 3. If your router is increasing this value, then it indicates a high level of noise on the line. That sync speed is the best your line will hold."

[RCS2K4]

One of my last Sky Speed Tests:


IDNET This Evening:

[psp83]

IDNET's reply to my email has also given me the distinct impression that they won't be looking at it:
"BT's set the SNR at the exchange to 3. If your router is increasing this value, then it indicates a high level of noise on the line. That sync speed is the best your line will hold."

Support can't really do much about noise, Sky equipment is different to BT's, that's the issue here.

Why did you move if you had good speed on Sky?

[lozcart]

You are losing sync speed due to your SNR magin been set higher by BT line management, you are now at 18. This can be due to noise on the line as previously mentioned or it can be raised if your line is seen as unstable due to it resyncing.  This could be the router playing up, manual resets of the router or a line fault. You recently lost broadband and the phone line completely what was found to be the cause of this? If it was a line fault this could be the cause of the raised SNR.

[Steve]

I agree. At the moment you've got a shitty line, not sure why especially since you had good performance from sky LLU . It is after all the same connection to your local exchange that you've had all along. Your downstream sync is down and your margin is high. The differences between Sky LLU and BT adsl2+ relate to IP profiles and the imposition of banded profiles which limit the max sync. You may have become banded but the sync doesn't correlate with previously published band limits, ok they may have changed the banding limits and I'm not aware.

If we can't explain the  high margin by the imposition of a banded profile then it has to be down to noise. I don't necessarily buy the support kop out of the max your line can support either has you have a short line and previously demonstrated it's quality on LLU.

With regard Annex M that may pinch something from the downstream I guess.

Has anything changed in your equipment since you moved to IDNet i.e. router , cables ,filters , sockets etc?

[pctech]

Different DLM and DSLAM kit?

[Steve]

True or something wrong with it? Trying to look for free and easy hits first.

[RCS2K4]

To follow this up, and to demonstrate I wasn't just - ya know - moaning for the sake of moaning. I've migrated to Be and will you look at the speed test I get with them on the same line and router:



It's held that steady for 2 days, no line error's etc. Thats what I hoped IDNET would deliver, and while I don't blame IDNET for the complete speed fail I had, it does indicate something's a little off with BT's 21CN round here...?

I miss IDNET's snappyness and support guys, and consistent speeds (well, I used to get them). I may come back one day, maybe when IDNET get their own LLU. They would be the perfect ISP if BT never had to be dealt with...

[Lance]

Idnet can use Be if it is installed at the exchange so it seems like you didn't need to migrate to get away from BT.

[Steve]

Idnet can use Be if it is installed at the exchange so it seems like you didn't need to migrate to get away from BT.

Looking at a quoted email response from IDNet it's perhaps understandable that the customer thought he had to try somewhere else especially with knowledge that the line had previous good quality on Sky LLU.

IDNET's reply to my email has also given me the distinct impression that they won't be looking at it:
"BT's set the SNR at the exchange to 3. If your router is increasing this value, then it indicates a high level of noise on the line. That sync speed is the best your line will hold."