Blizzard threatened with court action over allegedly misleading packaging

Started by pctech, Jul 24, 2012, 13:10:48

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Technical Ben

Wait, in D3 you can sell and buy swords and shields, right? (Again, I don't care if the players or Blizzard are selling, players get the money, Blizzard get a cut.)
Swords and shields are already in game. So in a game of naughts and crosses, where I already purchased the markers (a marker version, not a drawn one), why would I pay to swap with other players? I'd swap freely, or in game (like Monopoly), but for nothing would I play monopoly with real money.

I do really understand the entire concept of the game system, economic system and player system here. It's subtle in how they do it (but blindingly desperate), however it's clear as to what they are doing.

It's close to being a casino crossed with a pretend (as it's only made up by Blizzard's RND generators) futures market. Oh, it's defiantly got a real game under the hood. But it's integrated with a content system generated via RND drops (not content generators) and sales system based on these "virtual" number generators. They hope people hit the barriers that encourage purchasing/sales. Unlike normal games (say solitaire) where you hit a barrier and try again or whatever, here you hit the barrier and can purchase progression (would you purchase extra Aces to be dealt in solitaire?).

Remember, Blizzard gets paid per sale/purchase.
I use to have a signature, then it all changed to chip and pin.

Niall

I'm not sure if you're just being deliberately argumentative, or you actually don't understand how the game works.

You can finish the game without buying anything, with gold or otherwise, it's just a massive time investment. You save your gold, you can buy the items from the gold auction house. If you wish, you can buy items off the real money auction house (and yes blizzard get £1 from each sale). That is all a part of the game. You can even play the game and only use the items you yourself get from killing mobs, and/or buy from the NPC traders in the game.

Sure you CAN buy the items from an auction house, and that idea has been there since WoW, what 8 years ago? People ALWAYS buy gold, and items. There is a MASSIVE illegal trade in this across ALL games that have in game trading, and there always will be. For people like me, I will buy an item off the auction house with in game gold as it's a part of the game and helps you progress quicker, as I don't want to spend 1000s of hours on a game these days, when 8 years ago I might have done. Some people have disposable income and will buy off other users in the game, that's their choice. Once again, and I hope for the final time I will say Blizzard themselves are not forcing you, asking you, insisting you, begging you, stopping you playing if you don't buy items off the real money auction house. In fact if you look at it, it is actually dying now. A lot of people have actually stopped playing it until a patch comes out to make inferno easier. For the last month the same items are on the auction house(s) and are not selling at all.

The point I'm making here is that you seem to think, or are at least saying that you have to buy these items to finish the game. You do not, BUT you WILL have to invest considerable time, unless you're very lucky and get really good items dropping early on. Blizzard do NOT add items in game. They are completely 100% random drops within certain areas, with 100% random stats on it.
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Leo Tolstoy

Technical Ben

No, I am not saying you have to buy the items. I'm saying "why would anyone want to buy the items"? I also don't understand why anyone would want to buy "gold" for WOW. Well, if they do want to buy such things, I blame the game or the players. I'd prefer to side with the players here and blame the game.

It's a game of snakes and ladders in essence (progression based on RND rolls, right?). That's ok, I like these types of games too! However, I would not pay to "advance" in snakes and ladders by "having a dice with + 100". Even if it's purchased from another player. Why would I pay money to have a dice that rolls quicker? I already own the board game and have total control over where to place the counters. Likewise, I'd not pay to have "a sword with +100" either. Not from the players, not from the board company.

It's also worth noting that I'd not need to pay anyone to move my counter in snakes and ladders, I can do it myself. The same goes for sword stats (It's not DLC they are selling here), they only require a change in notepad from "value=50" to "value=150". It's even worse that these changes are artificially limited by a cash auction house (you are only allowed to change the stat if you pay to!).

Blizzard are not forcing anyone, but they are hiding the fact that in Snakes and Ladders the player has absolute power to move the counter anywhere they like. If someone artificially charges you to move the counter, then what? Would you personally pay another player to be allowed to move a counter "double spaces" in Snakes and Ladders? I'd guess not. I'd not do it either. Why though are people making an exception to move quicker in D3? They already purchased the game (have the full board of Snakes and Ladders). The progression is hard-coded (rules of Snakes and ladders says you can only move as many spaces as the dice rolls). However in the board game no one confiscates your game if you decide to "have a quick game with double rolls", or "start from square 50".

Or to put it another way: Would you "pay for other players" cards when playing a card game with friends? If your hand is no good, it's part of the game. Using real money to buy cards off them from their hand is completely crazy in my eyes. With Blizzard each player already has a full pack of cards (you paid £30 for it) and they all get dealt a hand from that pack. Yes players get different hands, but that's part of the game. I understand players swapping cards, or "monopoly money", but not using real money. I've never seen someone use real money to swap a card in a card game, likewise I'm taken back seeing people use real money to swap "a sword" which equates to a Ace of Spades.

Sorry if I seem to be arguing for something else or if it's a personal subject.

PS, finally again I ask why pay to avoid "the massive time investment" when the likes of save game swaps and cheat codes (for legitimate progression speed up) has existed since forever for free. To force a requirement to pay or to remove the option for these things is a failure in my eyes. Yes, prevent them in a multiplayer game, but why charge for them?
I use to have a signature, then it all changed to chip and pin.

Niall

I dunno, it seems that you just don't understand the concept of the game. You pay your money to buy the game which includes the auction house. You're not cheating (which oddly you seem to indicate you think is fine for a game normally, which baffles me), you're creating an in game economy. Where it falls flat on its face however is by not having caps implemented, so people charge ridiculous amounts of gold for an item. This is where bots and farmers come into it, selling gold online illegally. Still it's all fun sometimes.
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Leo Tolstoy

Technical Ben

Never mind. The fact it gets banned in some countries under gambling laws backs up my point. I see no problem with the game, but they should be honest and up front with what the customer is buying into.

It's not cheating either. Fast forwarding a game or movie is not cheating of any kind. I just cannot understand charging to fast forward. Playing a "quick game of footy" is not cheating either. Valve manages a trade/auction system without causing these problems, but that is a different system (no player cash swaps!).

You need to ask yourself the question "why do people pay for virtual gold". It is exactly the same as swapping real money for monopoly money (from players or publishers). I've never seen a person fall for that one with the board game. But sadly, as soon as you put a PC between the player and the board game company, people seem to forget what is really going on. In D3, the progression and player economy is no different to monopoly. Both provide the entire game at purchase. Both have multilayer elements that have rules. Both use "in game currency" and allow player trading and auctioning! Both use dice or RND selection of player items. What are you buying except pretend money, you already own the entire board game and houses?
I use to have a signature, then it all changed to chip and pin.

Niall

Seriously, please tell me why you keep saying " I just cannot understand charging to fast forward". What on earth are you talking about? I've gone over this, what, three times? YOU DO NOT PAY ANYTHING TO PROGRESS FASTER. AT ALL. EVER. AT ANY POINT. Blizzard DO NOT CHARGE YOU ANYTHING. EVER. AT ANY POINT.

You really choose some bad analogies. Buying monopoly money would completely destroy the game of monopoly, as you have a set amount in that which is one of the main points of the game (to take it all from your opponents, in order to win). I really don't think you have an actual valid point and just don't like the game (or more likely, Blizzard). Nothing you've said makes any sense at all.

The only thing I don't like that we agree on is the real money auction house. Personally I think it should be banned full stop. While most people control their urges, some may spend money they can't afford trying to progress in a game, rather than playing it properly, or say they have the best item. I'm 100% against that, and that is why it's banned in I think one country (South Korea I think). In game auction house is fine as it's a part of the game, and nothing more. If you don't like it, don't use it. Simple as that, and there's nothing more to say on the subject. It's that black and white.
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Leo Tolstoy

Technical Ben

Yes, I agree with the real money auction house, swapping real money for in game items (which are generated via a RND, thus similar to a casino here) between players is where I see the problem. That's what I see as breaking the moral standing of Blizzard or the players. I'll let the players off, as the casino setup is hidden deep in many layers of gameplay, but underneath it's there. As you said, paying real money for monopoly money would break the game of monopoly. It doesn't break poker though, or roulette. However, those games are advertised as such.

I don't dislike dungeon crawlers or Blizzard (I suspect SC2 is a very good RTS). I detest companies trying to hook, line and sinker customers. With either pyramid schemes or empty points schemes. Or in this case, false scarcity to push up the desire to trade in game items for real cash (either buying or selling). At least with Pokemon cards they were physical cards, only slightly better in my view, but here they are easily manipulated spreadsheet values being traded.

Is the auction house the same as paying for in game money? Yes, not directly, but it is. As soon as they offer money for in game items, it becomes swapping real cash for monopoly cash. With the Valve games, the trade is one way only (you can buy in game items, but not sell them). So trading in game for real money tends not to exist in those games. It still creates problems, but tends to limit players from either doing free swaps in game (like you do in monopoly as part of the game) or purchase straight from the publisher (as you do in Pokemon or TF2 or WH:20k).

It's both that a company is trying to pull a "Zynga" and make a casino hidden behind a "game" with virtual limits, virtual progression restriction and virtual stat boosters. Those things might be a "game" but only as far as a roulette wheel is, and it is dishonest to not label it as such. Perhaps D3 is more complicated, but it blends player cash trading with RND drops. One or the other and it's just a random game or a cash shop. With both, it's a cash casino. :(
I use to have a signature, then it all changed to chip and pin.

Niall

So what you're saying is you're fine with Valve creating an illegal trading structure (people sell items for games/gifts,etc all the time) outside of the game, but when Blizzard try to combat that by creating a legal way and attempt to cash in, it's suddenly wrong?
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Leo Tolstoy

Technical Ben

I said Valve have at least stepped it down, but not succeeded in preventing it. I don't agree with what Valve did, but it's less than Blizzard did here. However, what prey tell can you buy for TF2 on Ebay? The purchase price or trade price for hats is so low that I'm guessing it's pennies. I most of these cash systems verge on gambling. I don't think I said it's wrong to bring out a poker game, or add poker to D3 or WOW or TF2. It's wrong to not be honest with your customers though! At least Valve are honest and say "we do not allow cash trades". The rest they do is not so honest (time limited and random rolls for content does not build a healthy level of dependency on the game).

Another company taking a similar stand to Valve is the Eve Online company. They don't do in game cash trading. They do for "subscriptions" trading, but again that's one way trades. It keeps the cash there to pay to play, not pay to gamble. But if they did wish to put a cash trading shop in TF2 or Eve Online, I'd not care, unless they fail to label it as a "risk" and a "gamble". Because as with D3, I would be concerned for my friends and family who fail to see past the complicated gameplay elements and that a casino hides behind it all. Then the risk of loosing cash is much greater. At least if you know it's a gamble, you try not to overspend.

The best thing to do is remove the need or desire to gold farm. There is no gold farming desire in the older games. There is no desire to gold farm in the older server based multiplayer games. TF2 would have zero risk of an illegal trading structure if the content was not limited. Eve Online or WOW would have no "gold farming" with a single player or private server model.

Cashing in on other peoples addiction to "gameplay grind", instead of just earning a decent wage making games, is abhorrent to me. Whether the trade is done by players own trading (Ebaying game gold) or assisted by the publisher (in game cash auctions/trades). :(

Quote from: Niall on Aug 03, 2012, 19:15:49
So what you're saying is you're fine with Valve creating an illegal trading structure (people sell items for games/gifts,etc all the time) outside of the game, but when Blizzard try to combat that by creating a legal way and attempt to cash in, it's suddenly wrong?
That is misquoting me. I said Valve prevent swapping of game content for cash. How is that creating an illegal trading structure anymore than banning guns creates illegal shootings? So I am fine with Valve preventing gambling in their game, as they are required to by law. If the content was not random, and is not cash swappable, it's not gambling. I've no idea what loophole allows Blizzard to get around that, some countries don't allow it (thus the ban) others do for now.
I use to have a signature, then it all changed to chip and pin.

Niall

Where is this gambling that you seem to have made up to support your argument? At no point in the game or outside the game, do you gamble in any way, shape or form.

Also, regarding the illegal trading, the steam forums were rife with it until valve started warning and then banning people, and deleting threads related to it.

Like it or not, if you add collectibles into a game, you encourage external underhanded ways.


Let's face it, you're not a fan of the game or company (I'm no fan of blizzard either as they create a game and seemingly thumb their noses at customers from there on out). Nothing you're saying regarding The game holds any water. Cashing in on people's addiction, for one, is ludicrous. They have seen what goes on and to make it safer, added the RMAH for which they take £1. If you chose not to buy on there and use the in game AH they get nothing. That is not cashing in on people's addiction, charging monthly subscriptions is doing that, if you consider enjoying a game an addiction that is, which in itself is a very flimsy arguement.

The main issue people have with Blizzard is the drop rate in D3 is far too low. That is done to keep a high amount of players in game, so they can use that stat to pull in investors. There was a new article out the other day saying WoW has lost 1.1 million players, but Blizzard pointed out there were more now playing D3. Personally I think they're deluding themselves as its more likely the case that a vast majority of D3 players are WoW players. People playing D3 are leaving now due to the low drop rate and extreme difficulty. To me this only reinforces my opinion they are trying to keep investors happy, as their version can't possibly be true.
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Leo Tolstoy

Technical Ben

Exactly, they have absolute control over the drop rate, thus the auction house economy.
If Blizzard released this game with zero cash economy (game points only) then I'd have no squabbles. Really, it's nothing to do with Blizzard or the genre.

The in game auction house is restricted by the amount of in game gold you get. Which is restricted by the programmers (the progression limit). So, they can try to lengthen and stretch out the time needed to get a sword or whatever in game. However, paying cash you can get it instantly. Now, translate that to any other game. Say football. Want more goals? Well, normally you have to play, but you can pay to get early goals. How about poker? Well, normally you have to get a good hand, but now you can buy Aces.

In single player games it does not matter if you get an advantage (it's single player) but at the same time, there is no value to buying extra goals or Aces. Your the only one player, so can just skip ahead (say in solitaire or minesweeper).

Only if you add restricted collectibles into a game do you encourage underhanded ways. Achievements in Steam = in game points only. So, if someone swaps a game save for achievements, nothing happens. Can someone charge and sell these on Ebay? No, because the distribution is unlimited, no one can charge for them. Same goes for old Mario or Sonic saves if you want to "get all the stars" or "get all the rings" or something. You can just swap saves. But, if you make those in game items restricted or cash exchangeable, you add the risk. So, to me both Valve and Blizzard can remove the risk, but for the chance of profit, they do not.

So they can remove the risk, but it requires them to sell a game and give the players the control or give the players full content with the purchase. They do not want to do this, and this causes the out of game trading. Adding an in game auction house does not solve this problem, it only moves it from Ebay to the games version.

You need to ask, "why is someone willing to pay to progress faster in a game"? I do not know of any physical games where this is allowed (rowing? Football? Tennis?). I know of very few paper based games it is allowed (not allowed in cards, monopoly, scrabble). Only the likes of WH:40k and Pokemon are cash trades ok. At least there we have physical items that have some worth. What if all the WH:40k and Pokemon cards were photocopies, then what are they worth? Here a game (not just D3, there are others on the market too, like TF2) has presented a stat booster and charge for it.

Just to make it totally clear, I am against paying to "progress faster" in a digital game. Why? Because it's digital, the speed of progression is a single command, something that is values at such a low price. Something like "speed =10" or "attack = 100". It's like trying to charge for the ability to turn pages in a digital book faster!  :laugh:

PS, I just remembered, even in WH:40k there is no rule against a player making an entire army out of their own makings. No purchase nessisary as long as you keep to the rule book. You cannot do that here. I ask why? The answer would be very interesting.

Perhaps a clearer example of what I'm talking about. http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/131615-diablo-3-the-blizzard-sweatshop and http://www.cinemablend.com/games/Beware-Diablo-3-RMAH-Gamer-Loses-149-Auction-House-Bug-44100.html

Oh, and I don't prefer the other game more, they are just examples of "having no underground trading or in game cash sales". For example Borderlands 1 and the Borderlands 2 game out shortly have ZERO chance of underground trading. It's Single player, multiplayer and PVP. If someone cheats, they win nothing. It's the same as cheating in a game of football by shouting "offside" every couple of seconds to give yourself a penalty. Totally pointless and if you try it no one plays with you anymore. Just try it in Borderlands, hack infinite gold or all the items, it makes no difference. The value is in playing the game, not having a +100 stat. The value is in swapping with friends, not selling a virtual item.
I use to have a signature, then it all changed to chip and pin.

Niall

I'm quite looking forward to Borderlands 2. I played the 1st one recently. I only uninstalled it as I had other games I wanted to play, and limited space on my SSD.

As for that first link you've provided, did a 10 year old write that? It feels like it should have lolh4xwtf written in as punctuation.

I'll say it a final time, then I'm done with this discussion as you don't want to believe what's happening in the game, for some baffling reason. The auction houses are there to sell items. If you don't want to spend money on an item, you do not have to. The RMAH has items on there for weeks at a time, and you WILL see them appear again later. Not because someone has bought them and put them back (granted that will happen too, as I've seen 1 item I sold on there reappear) but because they want silly money for them, and people are not willing to pay that. You will get people that buy off the RMAH, it's unavoidable as it exists. I personally have no problem in a company doing this, when there is a trade going on illegally. Why would you not want to cash in on it if people are already doing it. It's been going on for a decade in games that I play. Will you find me doing it? No, I'll play the game properly, and use the ingame auction house when I see an item appropriately priced.

Also, to underline my point, my mate that I mentioned earlier (I think in this thread) has some very high end stuff dropping as he plays this game only (as in no others) when his missus is at work and he has nothing else to do. He has listed vastly superior gear on the RMAH for weeks and has not sold it. He is even keeping an eye out for stuff for me so I can try to finish the game! Anyway, the items he found that won't sell on the RMAH, he transferred to the gold one, and sold the items in a few hours. They haven't reappeared yet, going on 3 weeks and are not on the RMAH either. Genuine players are buying things for 1-2m gold, or 5-10 if it's a top end legendary item. Anything over that, is being put on by idiots showing off an item that don't want to sell it, e.g you'll see fist weapons on for 159000000 gold, then as soon as the weekend arrives it's gone. Obviously someone that works during the week and plays at the weekend, using those items. Also, the gold farmers will have items for 60million gold+ and these are the items you'll see over and over.

The trouble with the system is that there is no cap. If there was a cap on item prices then you would have a game with a better reputation, and people would have a better chance of getting the items. As it is, with no cap, people are putting items on the AH (NOT the RMAH) at a ludicrous price, assuming that everyone will buy these items. These farmers, which are invariable the Chinese farmers, and mainly idiots that love the game and think everyone else thinks the same way will assume that people pay the prices and continue to attempt to sell. You see items being relisted every two days for about a week, then they'll vanish and appear a week or two later again.

If you actually play the game, go and look at both auction houses now. All you'll see are people charging too much for gold items, and people thinking they'll get £250 for a sword (very rare you see this now), and items for £20 that are basically end game items. Some idiots thinking they'll cash in, will have poor items on there. This is giving the false impression that people are actually selling items on there, which for the vast majority of the time they are not. How do I know this? My character has 3 tabs of high end items that I have tried to sell for 4 weeks, as I'm no longer playing the game I just log in to sell items on both AH's in the hope they'll patch the game and then I'll go back to it. In the 4 weeks, I have not sold a single item on the RMAH, and this is items set at £2.50 - £5; I never set the price higher, no matter what as I don't want to be responsible for someone spending money they can't afford on a game item, and at that price it's generally money that you've made from selling to farmers anyway. I would LOVE to see the stats on how many genuine players use it. As for the gold auction house, in 4 weeks, I've sold 4 rings, relisting items every two days.

People are not being fleeced. These news reports, if you can even call them that, as they seem to have been written by an idiot, are so clueless it's amazing. They seem to have the mind set of a fanatical D3 player that is under the impression that everyone thinks as they do. They even make the mistake of underlining this opinion by stating that when you stop playing a game you'll sell all your items on the auction house. If you're fed up enough to stop playing the game, you're not going to log in every two weeks for eternity to sell your items. You stop playing if you stop playing. Honestly, that's like a Daily Mail article.

Oh and as usual, I'm aware that my posts sound aggressive when I'm discussing something. They're not said in that context, so apologies if they are seeming that way, it's just my way of writing (I get moaned at in work for it too :D)

And finally, something amusing :D http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19134764
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Leo Tolstoy