Can't use ADSL2+ :-(

RCS2K4 · Nov 22, 2012, 20:29:59

Evening all,

I'm back on IDNET again. The problems I had at my last address were well documented in a thread on here earlier this year, so I left. As it is, I've moved address and have been waiting an age for Openreach to connect us back to IDNET again. But ohhhh boy, a feeling of deja vu is coming over me. New address, lines and router. It connected initally at approx 22 MB Sync, and I was able to get this:

But that was at lunchtime. Several drops later, and a period of nothing for about an hour it's connected back - But not to ADSL2/2+. The router stats now say G.DMT and I can't make it go back to what it was on earlier. so were stuck like this for the time being (about 7MB Thruput):

Any ideas why???

Steve · Nov 22, 2012, 20:52:44

I think you need to talk to support tomorrow, attenuation is low so adsl2 should be possible.You've an adslmax downstream cap either deliberate, BT cock up , or line issue.

Welcome back

Simon · Nov 22, 2012, 21:11:09

Hope things get sorted for you soon.

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 15:12:13

Hate to say this, but I don't know whats going on with IDNET's support team anymore. Back in 2005 to 2010 you could call them and things would just get fixed. Now, I get the feeling im ringing up a scripted call centre where they are just passing on a message. It's such a disappointment.

The guy I spoke too knew nothing about attenuation, SnR or Interleaving and how it impacts my connection speed. I asked to move to LLU and he knew nothing about it!

Anyway, almost 2 weeks on since the connection, my router is holding ADSL2+ sync, but thruput is barely at 3-7 MB (Sync rate is 24750 downstream). I don't get why things are so bad thruput wise, but lately pings are also really bad (150-200 Ms to IDNET's DNS for example). Router reports interveaved path is on now too (it never used to be), and it's just generally a poor connection.

I had this issue in this area before, as I used to live on this same street a little further down (See this: http://www.idnetters.co.uk/forums/index.php/topic,29049.msg686409.html#msg686409). I could barely get the speeds I am getting now for whatever reason on a BT 21NC connection, but later moved to BE, and got sustained and error free 21MB thruput on a 24MB sync. Why can't this work correctly here, again?

What else am I do do other than leave again and migrate to BE, where I know it will sync and hold 24MB???

Glenn · Dec 04, 2012, 15:42:27

When did you call, if it was out of hours, the call will have been answered by a call centre. If you can't call during supports office hours email them - support at idnet.com. As you have the option of BE in your area, IDNet can move you to their LLU BE supplied service.

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 16:38:48

Certainly you need to speak with daytime support, my suspicion is local exchange congestion. Can you perform a series of BT Speedtests at various time of the day ie evening and before 0700 should be ideal to look for evidence of congestion. Plus what Glenn said about Be is an option.

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 17:36:52

I contacted support at about 2PM this afternoon. I'm not happy - The connection is dire. If it holds ADSL2+ sync (like it is now) then it's sync speed is pathetic. Otherwise it drops back to G.DMT and goes to 8MB. This line is VERY short - Approx 400-500 Meters Openreach said when they were on site, and it's connected direct to the exchange. Still, you wouldn't think it looking at the connection stats taken 2 moments ago below. I want to cry, as it's been like this for 2 weeks with no improvement:

Edit: IP address removed

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 18:22:05

Ok if it's changing sync and modulation it's not congestion and neither is it satisfactory, have you got a spare router or can you borrow one?

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 19:04:09

I have my older Netgear DGND3300, and tried that 2 moments ago. It didn't negotiate a sync after 4-5 minutes of trying so I plugged the TP-Link back in.

It too has given up. Log file for it shows several fast and successive "Loss of Framing" errors. It also says the link is "down". So, i've switched to my iPhone 4S tethering which, ironically has lower latency, higher download and higher upload:

And my last one I did with IDNET yesterday:

Definatly special when 3G tethering runs faster than your actual landline broadband...

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 19:19:45

Have you tried the test socket behind the master ( that's if you've got access)with the phone disconnected, if it's still poor surely there has to be a fault.

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 19:20:20

RCS2K4 I think your IP address might be showing in the picture above, you may want to hide it

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 19:23:06

Well spotted I'm happy to remove the image if you can't edit

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 20:50:02

Your noise margin is very high at 18, this would normally be set to 6 and would be raised by the line management software if it sees instability on the line. I would try first the test socket as Steve suggests and see what figures your router reports, if it seems better it would point to a problem with your wiring or noise caused by a device connected to your line for instance a Sky box.

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 20:52:26

Quote from: lozcart on Dec 04, 2012, 19:20:20
RCS2K4 I think your IP address might be showing in the picture above, you may want to hide it

Good spot, thanks - Edited.

Quote from: Steve on Dec 04, 2012, 19:19:45
Have you tried the test socket behind the master ( that's if you've got access)with the phone disconnected, if it's still poor surely there has to be a fault.

Don't have a master socket (I think?). I'll get a pic up in a bit, but the phone socket has a seperate, dedicated hole on the Openreach faceplate for a modem - No microfilter's needed as it's built in to the socket. It could be buggered of course...

Edit: Here's the socket...

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 21:05:29

I'm not 100% sure but I think if you unscrew the lower half of the socket you will find a test socket behind it.

I've just read about you problems last time and would also recommend you try a swop to idnet LLU.

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 21:12:40

Okies, i'm taking a screwdriver to the thing. Back in 5...

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 21:21:50

Just a thought not sure if its relevant or not, maybe someone else knows. The faceplate you have is the same as I've got for FTTC can someone confirm it is suitable for BT ADSL2.

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 21:25:03

You can "fix" anything with a screwdriver. Found the test socket and stuck a filter in it.

ADSL syncs up, but it's slow still. Sync is just over 3.5MB. Line attenuation fell to exactly 10, rather than 10.4, but that prolly dont make much difference - It's low enough either way?

Quote from: lozcart on Dec 04, 2012, 21:21:50
The faceplate you have is the same as I've got for FTTC can someone confirm it is suitable for BT ADSL2.

I did think this also (FTTC isn't available here). Never had a phone socket with that built in before...

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 21:25:36

I think they are both the same nowadays

http://www.amazon.co.uk/GENUINE-BT-Openreach-Interstitial-Compatible/dp/B007URQZAU

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 21:28:48

Thanks Steve.

What was the noise margin when connected to the test socket?

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 21:30:12

Noise margin is now 19.6. I'm going to go and cry in a corner somewhere...

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 21:33:28

If the noise margin is higher connected to the test socket that is good news as it implies noise is being induced after the test socket.

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 21:35:48

Strangely that is in fact better, if BT has set your margin to 18 and you are showing an increase it actually means you are getting less noise on the line.

I would put the socket back together and fit a soap on a rope filter on both the phone and router connections and monitor the connection, also set up a Think Broadband monitor so you can keep a check on how the line is behaving. If its no better try to get a swop to LLU.

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 21:38:23

I'm suspicious of the plate filter plus that DEC phone is nearby, like lozart I suggest leave the faceplate off, use a soap and rope filter and move the phone.

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 21:52:05

Noted guys. I've re-located the phone to the other end of the hallway and added a microfilter to the phone socket, and a seperate one to the modem socket with a spare modem cable I had in my router box. The modem line is now double filtered...

SnR is 19.6 still. Sync is thru the floor but I guess it will take a few days???

lozcart · Dec 04, 2012, 21:58:10

Your sync will only get better when your target noise margin drops and the only way to get the margin to drop is a stable line. So best to leave your set up now untouched for a few days and see what happens. If you can set up a TBQM then if will help to identify any drops in sync.

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 22:10:10

If you've no extensions on the front plate you could leave it off and just use one filter from the test socket for both phone and modem

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 22:12:12

Hopefully it bumps up, but I will probably move this to LLU as soon as...? In the meantime, i've set up one of these:

Broadband Quality Monitor

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 22:19:05

Having looked have you allowed your router to respond to ping on the wan port

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 22:27:02

Ahhh, im looking but can't find anything in the settings that allows the WAN port to respond to pings...

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 22:30:05

Quick google - do you have an advanced security page? Or this http://www.tp-link.com/en/article/?id=122

RCS2K4 · Dec 04, 2012, 22:36:34

Think were good to go - Thanks.

Check that graph again??? The packet loss has stopped...

Steve · Dec 04, 2012, 22:37:41

mervl · Dec 05, 2012, 07:42:43

I may be completely wrong but . . . unless the router is reporting wrongly having reversed the figures isn't the problem likely to be the downstream SNR Margin stuck on BT's max of 18.0 (and your first post shows 0 errors), when it should be 6 or lower on a good line. There seem to be a number of reports of this around the web with your sort of speeds so far below the attainable rate, when people are switched to the 21CN network, and the answer is an SNR reset by the ISP - which most of them seem readily prepared to get done if it gets "stuck" for 3 days, and you say yours has been for over 2 weeks! (EDIT: having seen your disconnect this AM on the TBBQM check the router first though to see if the problem is correcting and the SNR margin ~~rising~~ REDUCING (CORRECTED), when hopefully it will continue over the next couple of days).

Two things: I believe a disconnection by you for a time (at least for over 30 minutes, best perhaps for overnight) might enable to DSLAM to reset - reconnection in daylight can anyway help to ~~raise~~ REDUCE SNR margin a bit but it's marginal, and if there are frequent disconnections might also be best to connect to the test socket (behind the BT faceplate), with phones disconnected, if you can - to rule out anything in your premises causing a problem; and (ideally with nothing else connected) is the Quiet Line Test (no noise) OK - 17070 option 2 I hope (from memory, I've not needed it recently)!!

RCS2K4 · Dec 05, 2012, 07:55:57

Thanks - I've checked the router sync and I have no idea what it's up to now :-( The SnR is 22.5 (how, if BT set it to 18???) and downstream syncrate is a very pathetic 1653 kbps...

I guess this was after it's disconnect this morning, but I had hoped it would go faster, not slower. The router is the only thing pluged into the line, and it's right next to the phone socket - so no internal extention wires etc. I've removed the landline phone completly too and tried out the test socket yesterday night.

But you say the SnR increasing is normal??? This is also affecting my speed massively though - My mobile phone can connect to the internet a lot faster at the moment.

mervl · Dec 05, 2012, 07:59:21

My mistake SNR margin should definitely DECREASE, unless there's a line fault!

EDIT: If you make a lot of disconnections (one or two a day in total should be OK though) the DSLAM can interpret it as instability and raise the margin.

Steve · Dec 05, 2012, 08:15:30

There's a fault somewhere! Regarding margin if the margin rises with the same sync or increased sync the ambient noise affecting the line has fallen. If the margin falls with same sync or reduced sync the ambient noise has risen. What we'd like to see is a margin reduction with a corresponding rise in sync.

BT could cap the max sync of adsl2+ lines that where unstable which results in a high margin and a low sync.

My suggestion is use the test socket with filter and ask if IDNet can get the line reset.

RCS2K4 · Dec 05, 2012, 08:32:50

I'm agreed on the fault - It died again just now for no reason and it's sync rate is barely 1172.

It's getting lower.

It has been 2 weeks though, and so far i've seen very little done to fix this despite my insane level of complaining to IDNet...

mervl · Dec 05, 2012, 09:32:29

I can't recall whether you've yet tried the Quiet Line test - preferably with a corded phone if nec beg or borrow one, and if poss when router is disconnected. Any noise you can report to phone service supplier, not IDNet as ISP and DON'T mention broadband. In this weather (cold, snowy and damp) faults may show up more than usually.

andrue · Dec 05, 2012, 10:20:16

It's also worth noting that since this sounds like a line fault switching providers might not help. Even switching to LLU would still use the same line. There's a possibility it could be a card fault at the exchange though. IDNet could ask BT to do a 'lift and shift' to test that theory but you first have to persuade IDNet that there's a problem.

pctech · Dec 05, 2012, 12:21:18

I'd just ring and ask for your MAC as you are unhappy with the help you've been provided with.

Personally I've found O2 Wholesale's (through a different ISP) approach to DLM better on my long line.

Glenn · Dec 05, 2012, 12:49:19

I've had a chat with support on RCS2K4's behalf. BT haven't closed the order off yet, it's due to be closed tomorrow. Once that is done, they can do line checks etc and escalate the case to BT.

RCS2K4 · Dec 05, 2012, 13:38:27

Quote from: Glenn on Dec 05, 2012, 12:49:19
I've had a chat with support on RCS2K4's behalf. BT haven't closed the order off yet, it's due to be closed tomorrow. Once that is done, they can do line checks etc and escalate the case to BT.

Yes, this is a little frustrating. Closing the phoneline order 17 days after it was installed, but don't even get me started with Openreach!!! IDNet can't do an awful lot until Friday and I don't blame them. Their support is like it always has been if you don;t end up at their overflow and out of hours call centre. Oh well, we will enter a further weeks worth of testing, or wait the 7 days for a switch to LLU then? I'm at work though looking at the "sea of red" on my TBBQM and am curious as to whats happened since I left the house since this morning...

RCS2K4 · Dec 17, 2012, 17:23:43

So - We've gone full circle. I can safely now say "I Told you so BT" etc etc etc... IDNET moved us to LLU after countless BT checks and SnR resets not helping the situation.

Now lookie:

BT's 21CN round here is really, really messed up...

Glenn · Dec 17, 2012, 17:24:47

It's a good result, thanks for the update

Steve · Dec 17, 2012, 17:28:32

We'll keep our fingers crossed it stays that way!

RCS2K4 · Dec 17, 2012, 17:39:21

Thanks guys - I have every bit of confidence this will hold up. Within minutes the BT connection speed would always fluctuate, and there were a lot (30,000+) CRC errors on the downstream within hours. This has been up since about 12:30 according to router logs. Zero fluctuation, no errors at all - And this is with interleaving OFF (BIG yayyyyyyyyyyyyy for low latency!!!!).

I'll never know where the actual source of the problem lies, but this happened twice with separate lines connected to this exchange. Big clue right there I guess, but BT say's it's healthy...

Steve · Dec 17, 2012, 18:18:27

Well the only difference is that you've gone from BT's exchange equipment to Be*'s , the line between you and the exchange remains the same.

andrue · Dec 18, 2012, 13:46:40

At a guess I'd say your original line card was duff. If IDNet had got BT to do a lift and shift it'd probably have fixed it as well. Anyway Be's network should offer slightly more speed by virtue of not having a profile so it's all good.

Steve · Dec 18, 2012, 18:15:12

I agree the lift and shift has proved the point.

Technical Ben · Dec 18, 2012, 21:29:19

Quote from: RCS2K4 on Dec 17, 2012, 17:39:21
Thanks guys - I have every bit of confidence this will hold up. Within minutes the BT connection speed would always fluctuate, and there were a lot (30,000+) CRC errors on the downstream within hours. This has been up since about 12:30 according to router logs. Zero fluctuation, no errors at all - And this is with interleaving OFF (BIG yayyyyyyyyyyyyy for low latency!!!!).

I'll never know where the actual source of the problem lies, but this happened twice with separate lines connected to this exchange. Big clue right there I guess, but BT say's it's healthy...

Sadly, we wonder if BT would even help/tell IDNet. With all the ~~power~~ ~~threats~~ ~~goodwill~~ great knowledge and ability IDNet have, it's BT they are up against!

It seems that the likes of Telephonica (is that right?) may not be as big as BT, but they know how to get their kit working, and working well. Which means IDNet can have it gold plated with service and quality and a setup that... ok, I might be overdoing it, but they do great when it's possible!

mervl · Dec 18, 2012, 22:56:41

I know we all love that broadband western, full of goodies and baddies (and BT play the baddie oh so well) but my experience is that ANY variety of DSL (which includes LLU), and I've tried all of them (and more), can fail to perform to its spec for a multitude of reasons not all of which seem to be remediable, and who's running it is the least influential. The only certainty is whatever works for you is good

.

pctech · Dec 31, 2012, 21:38:37

Telefonica is the Spanish equivalent of BT and have operations in several countries.

They do of course have experience of operating DSL circuits in a climate that is ~~scorchio!~~ hot for a good proportion of the year so the copper will expand, whether this has filtered into the design of DLM on their circuits here I couldn't possibly say but they do seem to perform better on some lines (including my own).