Internet Down?

[andrue]

I think that your active profile is supposed to follow the official profile it's just that sometimes your PPP session survives the resyn so the profile just get updated. In that situation your throughput will be lower than expected from your sync. As you say though it doesn't sound like your issue.

[mervl]

Don't know whether it has any bearing but my own German (AVM) modem/router (in place of OpenReach modem) reports three figures from the cab DSLAM presumably affected by the DLM and negotiated (I assume) with the modem:
sync rate (as for any modem/router)
a higher maximum, and minimum (50% of the maximum) rate
attainable rate (best the line can support). Interleaving is always on.

The IP profile reported by the BT checker  (not, I believe affected by DLM) is different again, at a maximum of slightly less than the sync rate as expected, and is approached by (but never exceed by) the best throughput.

For my line (capped at 40Mbps) it's all as expected with attainable highest, and sync at 39992 just below the (capped) reported maximum rate at 40000 and has been like that for 15 months. Like Andrue I get occasional bursts of latency disturbance and lower throughputs without any significant changes reported by the modem (other than I've noticed a strange jump in INP on the last occasion without any change in error rates to justify it), which correct themselves within a couple of days.

I don't think anyone on the operational side of OpenReach (or Wholesale) understands the DLM - only perhaps the boffins in BT research at Martlesham who don't get their hands dirty on the ground. It sometimes goes awry, and sometimes a disconnect at the modem for say 1/2 hour can facilitate a correction, but sometimes not. When my line goes temporarily awry it looks as though it always ends with an automatic  resync.

[miriam_idnet]

Hi Karvala,

ISPs cannot reset the profile of an FTTC or FTTP circuit. The DLM on these types of circuits is fully automated and self correcting.

If your circuit holds sync for a period of 48-72 hours it builds new profiles in that time to be applied on the next resync. This is achieved by rebooting the Openreach modem, rebooting your router will only drop PPP.

If your profile is not automatically reset upon resync and you feel it should be the only option available is to raise a fault to BT requesting an engineer visit (chargeable), if the engineer determines that there is indeed a problem he can request BT reset the profile manually.

There is no way for us to request the profile reset, only the engineer can request it. Unbelievable I know, but BT have never been the most logical bunch...

I have read the response Nick sent to you and find it courteous, informative and accurate. However, i do appreciate being told to reboot the router can sometimes appear to be a fob-off.

I hope this has provided some clarity on the subject.

Kind regards,

Miriam
Technical and Customer Services Manager
IDNet

[karvala]

"Should the speeds not restore I am to understand you will be contacting us so we can continue the investigation for you."  That was what you said to me, it's written right here in this thread.  The speeds have not restored, hence I contacted you, and naturally enough I expected you therefore to continue to investigate, exactly as stated here.  That's why I sound put out - instead of getting the promised investigation I got a reply telling me to reboot my router and if I'm lucky things will magically return to normal, even though I suspect it was pretty obvious to both Nick and myself that this was not likely to happen.  Just for the record, I did reboot my router and unsurprisingly it made absolutely no difference at all.

This is why I no longer trust IDNet support - you promise something, I keep my side of the bargain, but you don't deliver on yours, instead you just opt for the fastest and most flippant response.  I was promised an investigation (as opposed to an instruction to reboot my router) into the fact the speed is now lower than it was before the fault.  Are you now going to deliver on that promise?

[karvala]

Hi again Miriam,

Addressing some your other comments while I'm here:-

If your circuit holds sync for a period of 48-72 hours it builds new profiles in that time to be applied on the next resync. This is achieved by rebooting the Openreach modem, rebooting your router will only drop PPP.

That's interesting, and of course if you say that then I'm sure you must be right, but it's worth noting that many other experts are saying that it is precisely a refresh of the PPP session that actually allows the profile to change, rather than a resync, so there appears to be some confusion in this area.

There is no way for us to request the profile reset, only the engineer can request it. Unbelievable I know, but BT have never been the most logical bunch...

Are you seriously saying that you can't pick up the phone to your BT account manager and say "We have got a customer whose IP profile is lower after a recent outage and is not increasing beyond its present level; can you ask an engineer to reset his profile please?"  You honestly can't do that?  Because if so, that is completely insane.  What would happen if you did do that?

If your profile is not automatically reset upon resync and you feel it should be the only option available is to raise a fault to BT requesting an engineer visit (chargeable)

That's the only option?  So you can't, for example, look at my line stats and say whether or not in your expert opinion my line would support a higher speed?  That would be very interesting and relevant information, since my line clearly supported a higher speed prior to the fault; if the line stats have changed after the fault it would be further evidence that BT did change something in spite of claiming not to.  It would also tell me whether or not it is worth trying to achieve a higher speed.  I can't access that information myself because I am forced by BT to use a locked EIC modem which provides me with no information, but I assume that you guys can?

I have read the response Nick sent to you and find it courteous, informative and accurate. However, i do appreciate being told to reboot the router can sometimes appear to be a fob-off.

In the circumstances of a promised speed investigation, I'd say it's almost inevitable that it will look like a fob-off.

[miriam_idnet]

Hi Karvala,

Apologies for the delayed response, the Gig Circuit failure has demanded my attention for the best part of the day.

Please see below comments from our Account Manager and Product Team at BT Wholesale regarding the ability to reset a profile on FTTC products.

'Hi Miriam

See below a response from the product team. They would like me reiterate that this is only done in exceptional circumstances and has only been carried out once in 12 months.

We do not offer a reset of profile as a product feature either in L2C or T2R.

That is not to say that OR can't do it if we ask them, but we generally do not do this.
Our reasons are that DLM manages the line speed through profiling, giving the best speed that the line will run at with a reasonable amount of stability. It can take a few days to do this either at provision or following a hard fault corrective action. If you have a line running on a given profile, resetting it simply puts the line into a temporary state for a period until the speed is managed back down by DLM. If the line has been stable continuously the DLM will build a new profile where applicable, this is applied at the next resync.

There are occasions where we break from this rule, but they are few and far between. An example of this is that a line running at (for example) 60Mb, it impacted by a copper fault which slows the line down to say 25Mb. When the fault is corrected the engineer should reset the profile as BAU, sometimes this does not happen, and a small percentage of these occasions, we have seen DLM not manage the profile back up. In very exceptional cases like this, we have requested a profile reset following the standard escalation procedure and it has helped.'
As is clearly shown here, ISPs are not given access to reset the SNR of FTTC circuits, the standard procedure is to raise a fault, push for an engineer. If the engineer does not arrange the reset as he does not feel it is required we can then raise an escalation to Openreach via BT Wholesale to push for this action.

If we request our Account Manager take action to have the profile reset he will simply refer us back to the Handbook and escalation procedure, he will not intervene unless an escalation procedure has failed.

Regarding the promises to investigate further, as is the case for any customer, if a problem persists we will 'investigate further' meaning we will assess the situation, re run any relevant tests and progress the case to BT where necessary. This process does sometimes require the customer retest or carry out another local diagnostic to assist with the investigation. If the customer finds there is still no change after they complete the requested tests we will pass the case on to BT for the next stage.

BT Wholesale and Openreach have not provided ISPs with access to view the line stats of FTTC circuits. It is not therefore possible for us to offer you this detail, we can only follow the standard procedures laid out by BT in addition to using our own logic and experience to stream line the process.

I am sorry you feel you can no longer trust us here at IDNet however, I fully stand by my staff and support them as I know that they perform to the best of their ability with the given tools. Granted, as is the case with any support team there will be times where improvements can be made, that is where I step in and up the focus and impetus of the team and re train where necessary. I have addressed the initial issue of lack of call backs when promised but the technical ability of my team is certainly and without a doubt above par.

We have always had  a policy of honesty with our customers and will not sugar coat or mislead customers to make our lives easier, sometimes this is not the answer the customer wants however it is the best policy in the long run. If there is anything further we can do for a customer, I can assure everyone reading, we will already have done it to have the case closed and a happy customer as quickly as possible.

If you truly feel you cannot trust myself or my team any longer in supporting your issues please do let us know so we can have a MAC generated for you should you wish to migrate to another provider.

Regards,

Miriam
Technical and Customer Services Manager
IDNet

[karvala]

Hi Miriam,

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply, especially on a day in which you had the outage.  I appreciate you obtaining and providing that information.

It seems clear that you are largely powerless in the face of BT procedures; you're not given access to almost any relevant information and told that you have to rigidly follow a set procedure even when basic logic and common sense suggest that an alternative approach would be much productive.  That's a pity, but no surprise given who is behind it.

Contrary to what you might think, I am not just here to have a go at you, I am actually trying to do you a favour.  Reputable companies go to considerable lengths to obtain honest and evidence-based customer feedback, and I believe I have provided you with a number of valid points supported by evidence.  You might think I'm just a nuisance customer who should take a MAC code and go away, but I am actually trying to help you manage customer expectations, which is the principal reason I wanted to do this in public; some of the other customers I brought with me have made similar comments to me in private, and I daresay other people have thought similar things.  If the precise restrictions on what you are able to do, and what information you have available, were more widely known, you might find customers have more realistic expectations.

Anyway, I'm happy to leave it there for the time being, unless my speeds fall below a level which even BT would be willing to investigate (i.e. something slower than a carrier pigeon!).

[cavillas]

fAs ar as I am concerned Idnet have always been upfront and honest in all of their explanations and problem solving.  Unlike some other companies who always give you the answer you want, even when they can do nothing about it and then leave you in ignorance.

[Niall]

fAs ar as I am concerned Idnet have always been upfront and honest in all of their explanations and problem solving.  Unlike some other companies who always give you the answer you want, even when they can do nothing about it and then leave you in ignorance.

I agree, and what Miriam says above is actually what she told me when she phoned me (a call I wasn't expecting I should add!).

Basically it appears to me that there's a massive lack of training on BTs side, although after speaking with two very pleasant and honest engineers, one for installing FTTC and the other for the fault, they told me that BT are re-training ex army people for the FTTC rollout and they have very limited knowledge of the system themselves. One thing that I was and am aware of is that BT seem to actively lie about what they do, and not only that they are now seemingly trying to hide what they are doing from the ISPs. It's possible it's purely to keep the work on target for their rollout, so engineers aren't distracted by fault fixing, but it comes across as far too secretive and when someone tells you something from BT and your ISP tells you the opposite how on earth is a customer supposed to know who is telling the  truth? For me it's been a case of a year and a half of being bounced back and forth from support to engineer. Now seemingly this is due to BT resetting the line before visits (although I'm still waiting for Brian to get back to me to confirm this, after Miriam's call to me) and denying they do it, leaving me and the ISP getting nowhere.

When I've got confirmation (if support can get it) that BT are resetting the line before visits, I'm thinking of referring it to my MP to get BT to compensate me as I've lost count of the days off I've had to take because of faults, and am (nor are support) any wiser. Clearly BT faults cause it, but resetting the line is wasting my time, my annual leave and supports valuable time.

[karvala]

Now seemingly this is due to BT resetting the line before visits (although I'm still waiting for Brian to get back to me to confirm this, after Miriam's call to me) and denying they do it, leaving me and the ISP getting nowhere.

I think they definitely do that; they did that in my case as well.  There was a fault somewhere on their side because their system reported it.  Then for no reason at all they suddenly declared that there wasn't a fault on their side after all.  As a result, an engineer's visit was booked, and within an hour of that booking being made, and before the visit could actually take place, mysteriously the connection was suddenly okay again.  That's way too much of a coincidence if you ask me; I think it is clear that they won't do anything unless an engineer's visit is booked, and then they suddenly spring into action and reset the line before the visit.  If I were cynical, I'd say they did it in order that they could then charge someone (ISP or customer) for the engineer's visit, as of course the engineer won't find anything.

The whole thing is shrouded under a veil of secrecy and lies that can only be described as fraudulant.  You should certainly take it to your MP.  If you're feeling mischievous you should also put in a freedom of information request to BT asking for details of all action taken on your line in the six months; let's see if they're prepared to break the law and give a false response.

[andrue]

I think they definitely do that;

It's struck me as odd that after an engineer visit on Sunday my line had it's first ever major resync. Down from 73Mb/s to 66Mb/s even though attainable rate is 77Mb/s. It also has interleave on it now. What makes it more odd is that my line has been pretty stable for the last year. We didn't even want the engineer to look at the line since IDNet and myself are pretty sure the problem lies elsewhere in BT's network.

So an engineer visits a line that has been sat at 73Mb/s for three months and 24 hours later it resyncs down to 66Mb/s 

[karvala]

It's struck me as odd that after an engineer visit on Sunday my line had it's first ever major resync. Down from 73Mb/s to 66Mb/s even though attainable rate is 77Mb/s. It also has interleave on it now. What makes it more odd is that my line has been pretty stable for the last year. We didn't even want the engineer to look at the line since IDNet and myself are pretty sure the problem lies elsewhere in BT's network.

So an engineer visits a line that has been sat at 73Mb/s for three months and 24 hours later it resyncs down to 66Mb/s 

Yeah, I think that's another part of it as well.  Mine had also been rock solid connecting at 77Mbps and getting a good real download speed, but after the line was reset it will mysteriously not sync above 71Mbps under any circumstances, even though the line clearly supports it.  I reckon BT "solve" problems by just downgrading the connection in some way.  That was actually the basis of my argument with IDNet support; I think if a line has previously supported a particular speed, BT should be challenged on why it is no longer connecting at that speed.  They must know.

[miriam_idnet]

Hi Niall,

We havent forgotten about you!!

I've chased BT again this morning for you, will be in touch as soon as I have their response.

Kind regards,

Miriam
IDNet Support

[peasblossom]

Niall, for FoI requests try: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/  It sounds like it would be illuminating for many to know what's been going on at BT's end of things. If you already know about this site, sorry.